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Apple killed FW800

Remember Apple implemented FW800 very quickly, because they consider it important, and when you come to see, not everyone uses it.

Actually, it's closer to the truth to say that Apple killed 1394b with their decision to only put 1394b ports in the highest price (those with the discredited "Pro" label), while leaving all of their higher selling models with the slower standard.

The people who made the incomprehensible decision to use an incompatible connector for 1394b also share some of the blame.
 
If Apple wants to sit on the sidelines and say Mac users don't need it, then that's up to them.

They already did it with USB2. Macs had USB1.1 for a long time after USB 2 was avilable. Mac buyers were upset but even to this day I have a Mac I use for quite a bit of legacy stuff and that involves uploading photos of products. This sad sack of a PowerBook G4 has mere 1.1. So since it has a PC card slot I ended up buying a USB dongle for that thing.

Apple was trying to aid adoption of FW400 at the same time USB2 was getting popular, so now we all suffer.

The USB3 story is slightly different at least. It is a different plug!

I simply wish Apple would put a truly high I/O port on all its Macs so media management for content creators like me is not such a bother. I need to unload cameras and such so they can go back to work and view the content immediately for reshoots, and this is an arduous task without reasonable I/O given the increasing size of photo and movie files.

If only an iPhone or iPad could be used for that reasonably. It has the swap space.

Rocketman
 
I agree. Between eSATA already out, and Light Peak on the horizon, USB 3 is dead on arrival.

depends what is cheaper

most people aren't going to pay a premium and buy a special connector for only a few peripherals just to save a few seconds here and there. nice thing about USB2 and soon to be 3 is that it will work with everything including old devices and will be cheap.

lightpeak sounds cool but it will probably add too much $$$ to devices like mice and monitors. why would i pay and extra $50 or $100 for a monitor just for lightpeak?
 
depends what is cheaper

most people aren't going to pay a premium and buy a special connector for only a few peripherals just to save a few seconds here and there. nice thing about USB2 and soon to be 3 is that it will work with everything and will be cheap.

This is the key thing that matter above all else.

Is all USB things gradually migrate over to USB3 during the next few years and a tiny handful have Light Peak, then no one is really going to care.

Much like USB and Firewire today.
 
And that's the problem right there. As of right now 3.0 seems to be nothing but a one trick pony. No one is using it in other devices yet that matter to actual consumers rather than us tech nerds. Until then, its not going to be big.

How about the AV nerds ?

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

or

http://www.ptgrey.com/products/upcoming/index.asp

Flea 3 USB 3.0 model (not quite on market yet, but close )

To a large extend HD Video is a matter of large external storage. Video camera digitize the video and you end up with a very big file you need to transfer from the camera's disk to your computer's disk.

There are also a fair number of folks who capture audio. Again, you are only going to see this on the non low end priced devices first and then trickling down to the more affordable ones later. At the higher end you'll see LP battle with USB 3.0

It is a matter of cost right now. USB 3.0 controller is more expensive than a USB 2.0 one. So the device needs two things present to make case for adoption. One a bandwidth problem ( data could be sent faster and/or more reliably than USB 2.0 can handle) and price insentive enough can increase price slightly over a slower USB 2.0 version. (or that the device price has been cratering and need to add value to keep price level. )

Storage fits the bill on both counts. USB 2.0 throttles the internal device and prices are cratering. That means they are first on board. Doesn't mean they are only devices that are feeling that effect.

It would not be surprising to see USB 3.0 HD webcams or Audio capture devices pop up in the next 6-7 months.

That aside do you really think that the bulk of the USB external disk drive market is primarily composed of "tech nerds"? What about grandma who wants to back-up her computer like she has been advised to do ? She'll go to the store and by the simplest, affordable plug-n-play drive and use it. What is the huge deep tech nerd knowledge involved in doing that ?

If anything the geeky, tech nerd external drive market is the eSATA one. Maybe the FW800 one slightly (for non Mac users ).
 
Sorry, looks like Light Peak will be dead on Arrival.

Intel already working on something faster:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/...tm_campaign=Feed:+Slashdot/slashdot+(Slashdot)

You have to also remember that Intel also has Ethernet business too. They are gon to be generally looking for better electronic/optical integration solutions to apply to several products. While the opticial standards for Ethernet haven't yet aligned with these kinds of transcievers yet they very may well in the future in order to get costs down. 10-100Gbps Ethernet can remain super expensive forever. Eventually it has to get cheaper like 10M and 1Gb did too. The best way to do that is to get wide spread adoptation. The best way to do that is to go optical with more affordable elements.

PCI-e ... similar issues even though it isn't over very long distances. The newer versions of Infiniband networking are getting faster at least the pace of PCI-e. The PCI-e interface of the host controller is the chokepoint until PCI-e v3.0 catches up next year.

LP isn't dead. Just don't know if going to get deep mainstream market traction. LP has the same "bandwidth solution in search of a problem" issue that USB 3.0 has that folks are bringing up. that is one reason why they are targeting the "aggregating traffic" market. Route enough data from diverse sources to a single cable and you come up with a bandwidth justification.

That said the whole 'new thingy X is faster so everything else is dead ' is lame analysis. that's like buying computers purely on the GHz number.
 
that's nice and i bet lightpeak will be cool, but it will probably one of those gee whiz technologies that will die because of cost. i remember VLB was supposed to be faster than PCI as well.

come next year cheapo PC's will ship with USB3 once Sandy Bridge PC's start shipping in January 2011. in another year or so we will see USB3 enabled devices start to appear.

lightpeak will probably need a separate adapter card and most people will decide to wait for peripherals before paying for it. the old catch-22

wired ethernet is nice as well, but wifi is the future. i don't have any cat5 in my new place other than a short cable from my router to cable modem. enterprises will use it more and more, especially when moving offices or opening new ones since you have to pay more to wire up an office with cat5 then to buy a few wifi access points
 
I agree. Between eSATA already out, and Light Peak on the horizon, USB 3 is dead on arrival.

You missed a huge critcal factor. USB 3.0 is backwards compatible to USB 2.0 devices. Light peak is not. USB 3.0 will be out and replace 2.0 light peak I see becoming more of a new display port than replacing USB.
 
You missed a huge critcal factor. USB 3.0 is backwards compatible to USB 2.0 devices. Light peak is not. USB 3.0 will be out and replace 2.0 light peak I see becoming more of a new display port than replacing USB.
Who knows how this will work in reality, but Light Peak to USB 3.0 adapters have been demoed. Engadget had a story last April that said Light Peak will coexist with USB 3.0. I wouldn't put much faith in that until I saw shipping products, though.
 
No new Macs until USB 3 & SATA III is on the new Mac models.

He said the same thing about bluray, mac users wont see it until it becomes an industry standard.

But since BluRay is the industry standard now & the"Used Car Salesman" Steve Jobs still says it is a lot of hurt. That will be his next line. Then he'll say that FW400 is faster anyway & available on all Macs & the iPod & the iSight camera. Oh I forgot we dropped the FW iSight camera & replaced it with a slower USB2 model on most models & displays. Oh yes & we got rid of FW on the iPod because we did not like it when all of the new Windows computers started putting FW400 on even their cheapest models. It just makes syncing a little slower for everyone. But believe me I tell you no lies, only 1/2, 1/4 or maybe 1/1,000,000,000 of the truth, but as you can see it is not a complete lie.
 
You missed a huge critcal factor. USB 3.0 is backwards compatible to USB 2.0 devices. Light peak is not. USB 3.0 will be out and replace 2.0 light peak I see becoming more of a new display port than replacing USB.

Right, I agree that USB 3 would beat Light Peak for market uptake, if it was just Light Peak. But with eSATA already out, and already faster than USB 2, than I wonder how many more mass-market uses there are for USB 3, beyond hooking up fast hard drives?
 
Right, I agree that USB 3 would beat Light Peak for market uptake, if it was just Light Peak. But with eSATA already out, and already faster than USB 2, than I wonder how many more mass-market uses there are for USB 3, beyond hooking up fast hard drives?

eSata does not have any sort of real market penetration on the mac. It's not built into any models and you can't use add on cards for the majority of Apple's best selling computers (laptops, iMacs).
 
Maybe, what will end up happening, is that Light Peak will take over the graphical port, and USB 3 and eSATA will continue on scrapping for external drives, and USB 3 will be the standard for other peripherals, and then next technology upgrade round will be when Light Peak spreads across to become the uniform connector. It would be a tad unrealistic to tie it into ever type of connection right off the bat. Depends how much that breadth of work has already been done in the lab.
 
MacBook Air sans USB 3.0

the only thing I can fault with the new MBA, in fact I believe it's a real omission, is the lack of USB 3. At this point in time, for any model refresh, why would you by a Mac without USB 3 (or an ExpressCard slot that would at least allow a USB 3 upgrade)?:(
 
First...
Most people don't care/know about/have ever heard of USB 3 unless you are posting on this board. Most people don't know the difference between USB 1/2 or Firewire. Most people don't use external hard drives. Remember stores are selling "printer" cables at 1000% markup because most people don't know any better.

People would sure know the difference if you told them they could sync their iPod/iPhone in 10% of the time.
 
Right, I agree that USB 3 would beat Light Peak for market uptake, if it was just Light Peak. But with eSATA already out, and already faster than USB 2, than I wonder how many more mass-market uses there are for USB 3, beyond hooking up fast hard drives?

Who knows but light peak is massive overkill for a lot of things to waste the costly port on. Think like mice and keyboard does not need that much bandwithe so they will not need nor want to fun the cost to use light peak. They can and do use unshield wires and connect to a USB port. Unshielded because who cares if data speed is 1.0 speed still overkill for what they need. Chances are they will just use Usb 2.0 connection.

As for mass market it will be in flash drives as we are moving larger and larger fills so reducing time will be important.
USB power is how almost everything can use it today and kill that off will be near impossible. USB was able to kill off commports PS/2 ports because there were so many of them and USB became 1 port to rule them all. Now getting something to replace USB will be tricker and you need backward compatibility

Post from my blackberry
 
I use a FireWire audio interface* every time I record.

...

* Because USB audio interfaces depend on the CPU to move data across the bus in addition to encoding, etc. they are notorious for generating noise from the Rice Krispies triplets: Snap, Crackle, and Pop...

There is little evidence that USB 3.0 has that problem if use a modern multicore computer that isn't in the Atom/ARM market place. It was not the CPU that was the major issue. It was the lack of bandwidth to ship the low latency isochronous data traffic over.

USB 3.0 doesn't necessarily have that problem. (if force a revert to USB 2.0 circuitry it will.... but then you are strictly running USB 2.0 at that point. )


a. The SuperSpeed bus is a completely different set of wires. So if you plug in some pokey USB 1.1 keyboard and a chatty USB 2.0 web camera it has no impact at all on the SuperSpeed channel. (you might get very minor impact since share same PCI-e connection but that isn't likely to be a significant issue). Seperate sub-controllers run each different set of wires independently for the most part (some minor connection/metadata issues).

b. The SuperSpeed bus is duplex ( so that device and computer talk at same time). Again completely diffferent protocol than USB 2.0 where the computer's hub has to request each device to speak-only-when-spoken to.
If computer doesn't ask audio device for data updates often enough may loose data. Doesn't happen on SuperSpeed.


c. The bandwidth that can be reserved for isoschronous traffic is larger. Audio data (unless bound numerous tracks together ) isn't that much larger now than 3-4 years ago. That means more bandwidth than had before. Meaning less drop outs. Meaning cleaner data.

d. The increase in data traffic doesn't need anywhere near a 1:1 increase in CPU consumption. (in part because of b but also other factors incorporated into the new design. )

The primarily high end audio complaint left is when you stretch FW out to maximum distance ( dozens of meters ). LP will get much more traction there than USB 3.0 will.

The other self inflicted problem is where overload the computer's CPU generating audio (why? DSPs are more effective, but prehaps strapped for cash ) and run some other software component at 90+% CPU utiliztaion levels while at same time capture some large music data stream. Besides if pressing keys and fiddling trackpad on the computer you are generating USB traffic (and CPU overhead ) too. The duration of the CPU overhead is also a major contributor. Again since faster the duration is shorter ( if isoloate SuperSpeed channel to primarily just audio capture. )

If plug a USB 3.0 capable audio device into a USB 2.0 socket ... then yeah you will get the same old USB 2.0 problems. However, if plug a USB 3.0 device into a USB 3.0 socket you get a new, not saddled with dubious design constraints and not limited by backward compatibiliy network between the two devices. It is brand new game. Trotting out the old USB 2.0 litany of complaints about the new 3.0 is lame.
 
He is right. As long as Intel doesn't have support for it, then Apple will not support it.

Also, for those haters, we have PCIe cards that can give you USB3.0 ports, also, 3rd party chips. You already know Apple isn't 3rd party chips friendly, then you already have your answer.
 
Apple by itself didn't kill 1394b. There were contributors though. The "Pro" machines are not necessarily mislabeled.

It may not have completely turned FW800 fortunes around if Apple had help get it to be more widely adopted. [ Microsoft not putting 1394b support into XP and Vista was probably a bigger problem. It is back with Windows 7 but that's too little , too late. ] It certainly didn't help.

By not moving the whole FW market to 800 has killed off any significant adoption of the follow ons. Nobody is going to jump to FW3200 if never switch to FW800. Those are never going to widely adopted by mainstream PC computer peripheral market. No movement to version "n + 1 " means the market usually stagnates and then shrinks over time. Don't see many folks writing Mac OS 9 apps anymore.

Similarly the different connector between 800/400 is a none issue of everyone just moved. People are not overly traumatized dealing with micro-USB cables versus normal type-A ones for USB. Largely because it is widely adopted and it is a "grumble and move on" issue. If it was a killer issue Apple would be dead in the water with they non defacto standard mini-display port connectors.
 
Aiden i believe that the point of John.B is that you do not have a Mac, therefore couldnt possibly know the implications of having fw400 nor fw800 and its effects on how a Mac user would interact with it in the Mac environment. Aka, related.

It doesn't sound like he needs to be the one that bought it, he said his employer provides them to him.

I do wonder how many Mac fans criticize Windows 7 or other Microsoft products without having used it.
 
He said the same thing about bluray, mac users wont see it until it becomes an industry standard.

I don't see Apple ever embracing BluRay. They've been trying to kill optical media for years. Too much competition for their beloved iTunes store.

Just look at iDVD and DVD Studio Pro, for example. iDVD took a progressively diminished role as part of iLife, and Final Cut Pro has seen 3 updates while DVD Studio Pro lags behind, still at version 4.

I've been an Apple fanboy since 1983 (I was 8), and I've been teaching Apple's Pro Apps at the college level for almost ten years, but I hate what they are trying to do to optical media.
 
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