Steve Jobs' Wall Street Journal Visit Reportedly Included Arguments Against Flash

[Anuba]

The benefit is retiring a technology that is not going anywhere. Imagine what the world would be like today if the technology never progressed past HTML sites like were around in the mid 90's.

Yes, old school HTML was dull. Then came Flash and other technologies and gave it more life. How is Flash "not going anywhere"? It has evolved at the same pace as every other internet technology, with the obvious advantage of being controlled by a company instead of an enormous committee that takes forever to agree on standards. Case in point: Flash has been around for 14 years. It took the open source dudes 14 effing years to get to a point where they can finally say "Yay, now we can do Flash-like stuff too!". Yes, these HTML5 demos look like Flash demos... from 1999. You call that evolution?

But you are correct that it is a new technology that people will be slow to appreciate and adopt. That just means developers have to learn something new

Developers won't mind, they'll just be going from typing code in one window to typing code in another window. I'm talking about animators and graphic designers. Flash is quite a powerful environment for them, given that it's matured over 14 years. Where is the HTML5 alternative with a stage, a timeline with keyframes and transition effects, the painting tools, inverse kinematics + bone tool...? Will any such tools be available on this side of 2020?

 

[Otaviano]

Truth is if the ipad/iphone/ipod touch have Flash then it would cut into Apples itunes store revenue. Remember Flash is not browser dependent. It can run as an app. You can build apps in the up coming Flash CS5.

Ridiculous statement, there are a ton of ways for people to release content for the iPhone that compete with Apple offerings.

Spotify is a free app in the App Store that is a fantastic music streaming service. To use the app you need to pay a monthly subscription which is done via the Spotify homepage. It's a direct competitor to iTunes and is the App Store without Apple getting any money.

A perfect example that shows Apple is not all to worried about competing with other services. I'm sure Hulu would be allowed to offer a similar app.

 

[lilo777]

and CCFL-backlit LEDs that Apple had helped computer users abandon in favor of newer technologies.

CCFL is quite alive and well. In fact DELL uses it for its high-end 27" monitors (U2711) which have the same IPS panel as latest iMacs. Not only those monitors do not have yellow tint issue but the iMac 27 offers a 72% color gamut while the U2711 has a 102% color gamut (based on the CIE 1931 standard).

 

[E.Lizardo]

Decimation refers to reducing something by 10%. If the iPad's battery life was "decimated", it would still be nine hours.

Decimation comes from Latin, meaning, literally "removal of a tenth". The word has its origins in the Roman practice of killing one in ten members of an army as punishment.

Please, people, use this word correctly. Its original meaning is perfectly clear just by reading it. Don't they teach Latin in schools these days?

You must cringe every time someone opens their mouth.

 

[dscuber9000]

Don't they teach Latin in schools these days?

My school doesn't spend a lot of energy on old languages.

 

[Winni]

Yes it can, and will. You will see in the 12 months website having html5 and flash sites. Once all browsers support html5, they will turn off their flash sites.

Yeah, sure. A PAGE DESCRIPTION language is going to replace an object-oriented programming language that comes with its own multi-platform, small footprint runtime system for full blown applications, games and, as a side effect, video and other media content.

Just like Steve Jobs, you guys who think that Flash is going to disappear because of HTML5 are pathetically delusional about this.

Nobody would say an idiotic thing like "HTML5 is going to kill Java". But guess who has already killed Java applets? Right. That was Flash.

Ever heard of Actionscript and Flex? Yes, that's also part of the Flash platform, and it enables developers to write all those small footprint web applications that Java once promised to allow them to write, but even until today failed to deliver. Adobe delivered. And nobody is going to jump ship because HTML5 promises to bring some new toys -- which will, once again, look different on different browsers. Flash apps always look the same on any browser and on any platform. That's just another beauty of Flash.

Steve Jobs is once again driving Apple against the wall with his arrogance and his countless personal vendettas.

 

[phillipduran]

He's so conceited, I really hope the newspapers keep using flash, just to spite him. Never-mind I also disagree with his whole philosophy of trying to tell other companies what's in their best interests.

Adobe sucks! Their PDF reader is constantly exploited. I can never stay current with all the security breaches the dang program has.

Steve is on the money. Flash needs to go.

 

[bobsentell]

Yes, because Apple is known for having cutting edge technology like Blu-ray on their Macs, cameras on their tablets, and an iPhone friendly website.

 

[QCassidy352]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

I agree with jobs wholeheartedly, in theory. But in reality, you cannot sell an Internet-centric device like the ipad, billed as the best internet experience you've ever had, and not have flash. Too many really popular sites use it heavily. I wish it weren't so, but html5 is not prevalent enough yet to no have flash on a device primarily being sold as an Internet portal.

Implementing Flash to the iPad, while fine, certainly doesn't mean you'll have the "best internet experience", especially if it slows down your experience, crashes your browser and shortens battery life which is exactly what Flash does on OS X and Windows. So refresh me? How does implementing Flash on to the iPad help to complete the model of "best internet experience?"

It ain't great, but not being able to view your favorite pages at all isn't exactly the best Internet experience either.

Again, I want flash to die for all the reasons you gave. But like others on this thread, I've heard a lot of people react to the news that the ipad has no flash by simply saying they won't consider it, in that case.

 

[a.gomez]

well better call Wired magazine seeing how they using adobe, Flash and AIR to make their magazine into an App (and a great looking one) Flash is not going to die anytime soon... go to a web design interview and tell them you do not do any FLASH and say you only do HTML5 because flash is dead... good luck with that.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...e_s_Flash_blockade_ePub_format?taxonomyId=144

 

[McBeats]

i dont care what anyone says on this message board about flash not being a big deal.... Flash is still being used enough to the point that not having flash on your web browser will hinder your experience... so apple, seriously, pull your head out your ass and acquire the damn thing.

i wont be reading any of these replies, so if u wanna quote me and disagree and call me stupid, go nuts.

 

[TSE]

Why doesn't Firefox support HTML5?

 

[bobsentell]

I will also add that I can see HP using Apple's non-support of Flash against them in ads for their Slate.

Jobs is stubborn and will stick to his beliefs. I just hope this isn't one case where he is wrong.

 

[bnerd]

LOL, YouTube has been moving away from Flash for years. They've been using h.264 for mobile devices since the original iPhone and for Android devices that didn't support Flash. Do you really believe Google, who it is always in their advantage to support open standards, are fully behind Flash? You're fooling yourself. Go look at Google's sites. You'll very little Flash in any of it. What does that tell you?

Google JUST stated at the Mobile World Conference that the mobile web NEEDS flash.. so what does that tell you!?

Plus YouTube started using h.264 because FLASH started supporting it in its player.. Flash runs h.264 videos.

 

[cmaier]

the NYT redoing their entire website??? does this puzzle anyone else? HTML5 tags like "video" and "src" are so easy to use... why on earth do they need javascript? plus HTML5 will auto fall back to flash... I dont get why that would be a big deal.

The NYT often has interesting interactive features, often using flash.

 

[mongoos150]

Stupid stupid stupid.

As big of an Apple fan I am - and for as long as I've used Macs (since early middle school) - I have no shame in saying this is a COMPLETELY ASININE position for SJ to take.

It is completely wrong to disallow a standard that is utilized by 85% of all web content! It simply doesn't make sense, and I don't buy the "battery life argument" for a second. I think SJ wants everyone to use H.264 - which won't happen - and it's "his way or the highway." It's immature, selfish and most of all a huge disservice to the users of web-surfing Apple customers (read: everyone).

I definitely won't be buying an iPad without flash (not that I was planning on buying an oversized iPhone anyway). No way, no how.

 

[ELScorcho9]

How long did it take to load up!?

In fact, is that video suppose to stream at all (as in starts playing as soon as you enter page!?)...

Perhaps its something to do with 10.5.8 since all guys running 10.6 can view it no problem!?

No idea...

Fact however remains, at least in my case, that I can NOT view it and that it crashes or hangs latest version of Safari

Perhaps you're the only one complaining that you can't see the video. I'm running 10.5.8 and can see it just fine.

 

[organerito]

Apple had helped computer users abandon in favor of newer technologies.
[/url]

I imagine that's why Apple hasn't adopted Blue Ray.
I imagine that's why they don't use C2D anymore. Oh wait...
It is just blah blah...

 

[abbstrack]

if Jobs is going to rail against Flash he should first make sure his alternative is fully implemented. I STILL cannot look at videos on Apple's site from my iPhone, which to me makes absolutely no sense. Essentially I guess what Jobs is arguing is that people don't want to look at video on the web unless it's from Youtube.

Lame.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

No, Jobs is still ahead of the times. Way ahead. Sometimes to push new technologies, the old ones have to be dropped, even if a suitable replacement doesn't exist or isn't mature yet. Of course, dropping a technology is hard, but if someone, or some company, doesn't stand up at some point, it will just continue to stick around. For all the people that say an HTML 5 Internet will be ready in x years and it's too soon to drop Flash support, that x years will continue to get pushed back if a stand isn't taken at some point.

Also, the most popular sites that require Flash will not only be adopting non-Flash technologies for their sites, but creating far more, powerful, innovative and device specific applications for the iPhone/iPod touch and iPad.

Apple and Jobs have a history of this, this is nothing new.

Dropped floppy.
Dropped modem.
Dropped full size video ports.
Dropped VGA, then DVI.
Dropped removable battery.
Dropping Flash.

The updates to the old technologies you mention aren't what's next, it's completely new ways of doing things that're next...

Examples:

USB 3.0 vs. Wi-Fi/Bluetooth/Light Peak
Blu-ray vs. digital downloads

Apple and Jobs will win this one. You shall see.

You mean sort of like how they pulled firewire off the original Macbook, saying that USB was on all new video cameras? And then there was a HUGE backlash against Apple. The typical Apple followers defended the company, saying if people wanted this newly-labeled "professional connection," then they shouldn't get a 13" model and instead go 15" or 17"?

Against this backlash, Apple had to reconfigure their 13" model and offer firewire once again. They took it off the lowest model 13", but the form factor retained this connection.

A bit trivial and needless debate, but telling of Apple's dumbfounded decisions. And to that, the value of public response to this silliness.

 

[Eidorian]

I think SJ wants everyone to use H.264...

2005 was the year of HD. Where's my DXVA or VDPAU equivalentfor OS X?

QTKit has been mentioned. What minimal support you do get is limited to the 9400M G and h.264.

 

[Havas]

I've been reading these forums for such a long time but I feel compelled to reply to this thread.

As much as I love my mb pro I'm afraid Jobs is talking out of his ass on this one.

For one no other tech out there makes it so easy to create cross platform applications for both the web and desktop that look and behave exactly the same on Linux/Mac and PC and yes I'm a developer who's been doing Flex/Air/Flash/PHP/Objective C and C# for nearly 15 years now (not for all).

And anyway soon AIR will be able to compile native code for Apple so Steve can suck it! And not to mention AIR works damn well on Android.

I will however agree that when Flex/Air is used badly it can be a real eye sore but when used correctly my god it's more powerful than most things out there by a long shot. For example I've been working on a massive CRM application for digital agencies for the past 9 months it's being built in Flex 4 and we get to compile for Mac/Windows/Linux (Web/Desktop) all from the same source and because it was properly designed it works damn well and looks/feels better than your typical .net app.

Anyway I'm with Adobe the likes of SUN (RIP) they are the only people trying to do something for everyone. Microshaft only think about themselves (c#, .net, VB) and Apple are even worse (Objective C, Iphone, Ipad) all these techs are locked down to benefit their owners while the likes of Java and Actionscript are working for the benefit of all.

Check out my last project at http://www.vw.co.uk and see what HTML 5 will never be able to do!

Not to mention Adobe are hard at work on making Flash/Flex/Air much more efficient.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

 

[macUser2007]

Adobe sucks! Their PDF reader is constantly exploited. I can never stay current with all the security breaches the dang program has.

Steve is on the money. Flash needs to go.

LOL, Some people have their heads so deep, they are completely unaware of the reality around them!

Here is a sample of reality: Apple is consistently among the slowest to patch vulnerabilities, MS is consistently the fastest.

Last year it took the posting of a well-known Java exploit on the blog of a former Apple engineer, to kick Apple into fixing it. It took Apple 180 days to fix a Java exploit that "could enable attackers to install a data stealing malware on users' computers while they visit any infected site. "

MacRumors really spun the Gawker article, though. It was largely negative in tone about Jobs' rantings, yet you wouldn't know it by the summary.

Oh, and this is the part I think hits the nail on the head:

"shortly after the meeting, on Feb. 10, editorial board member Holman Jenkins issued a WSJ op-ed comparing Apple to Microsoft and saying the company "is in danger of becoming preoccupied with zero-sum maneuvering versus hated rivals."

 

[&Ingonyama]

I think the only people against this are angry flash developers who are worried they will lose their jobs or might actually have to learn how to build a real website.

Good riddance Flash.

 

[mongoos150]

My school doesn't spend a lot of energy on old languages.

I think the only people against this are angry flash developers who are worried they will lose their jobs or might actually have to learn how to build a real website.

Good riddance Flash.

Right. Hulu, NYT.com, WSJ - they aren't real websites?