Technology to Embed Face ID into MacBook Displays 'Doesn't Exist,' Says Gurman

[dysamoria]

So anyway, why do people care so much about FaceID?

I love my TouchID on the MacBooks. I understand some people wear gloves while using an iPhone, but on a laptop TouchID should be perfect.

What I want to know is why Apple and their fans think FaceID and TouchID have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[dysamoria]

In addition to the aesthetics you mention, moving parts is usually a reliability weak point, which is why Apple (and other electronics makers) try to minimize them.

Except for the pathological tech that is “foldable screens”...

 

[dysamoria]

This is a great point that a lot of people here don't seem to realize.

With FaceID, how do you accept (or decline) a transaction since you're already looking at the Mac. You need a separate input to confirm/deny, which is why FaceID isn't really so vital.

However, if Apple create other functionality into FaceID (e.g. tracking when you're looking at the screen and when not to preserve battery life), that would up the ante on FaceID on MacBooks.

You should never be penalized for glancing around at things on a screen by having it initiate/validate a purchase, etc.

 

[dysamoria]

It definitely makes the experience worse. The question is whether it’s worth it. And making it “slightly thicker” several times adds up. As it happened with the iPhone: without any individual major jump, the iPhone 13 Pro is much thicker than the iPhone 6. But in the case of the MBP, it’s already on the edge of being too much.

I hate how thin my iPhone 6s is. I have a case on it because it’s too thin and too slippery.

 

[NT1440]

The article mentions the thin laptop screens as the reason why FaceID hasn't been added to Macs. I'm curious: Is the technology to implement FaceID significantly different from that to use Windows Hello? I use WH on my XPS 9510, and that has a very thin screen (and a crappier camera than Macs have). I'm no engineer, so maybe that's legitimate according to the way Apple builds their systems? Or maybe the cost of the higher quality camera is extra space?

Windows Hello, when used with a camera is basically a photograph. It’s weak security. Some vendors have gone further with it by using an IR camera, but both of these are MAJOR steps back from the approach that FaceID uses.

The problem with windows Hello is it’s a lowest common denominator technology. Vendors can put actual further measures in place (like the IR I mentioned) but you can basically use the feature with a regular camera that can be defeated with a picture.

So yes, it’s an extremely different level of security.

 

[dysamoria]

...said no twin ever. Short of a James Bond style retina scan Touch ID was the best we had.

Notice all the “choice” we’ve been given by Apple‘s “free market” capitalism:

People who want FaceID get to choose top range iPhones and iPads.

People who want TouchID either can’t have it at all, or have to buy the holdover, lower-range devices in order to get it.

We all get to divide into camps on Apple forums, screaming about our preferences as if these two are mutually exclusive technologies.

Thanks, Apple.

 

[dypeterc]

So it pretty much means that the notch is an aesthetic choice more than anything else. Maybe they could have made a small pill shaped cutout to accommodate for webcam and sensor. Maybe they didn’t to keep this as a “unique” feature for future iPhone?

In any case I still think Touch ID is better on a computer. So I’m not specifically waiting for faceID. Just a reduced notch.

Good point. I think the design piggybacks on iPhones and therefore has continuity between the 2 products. I’d be keen in knowing who designed the MBP notch (and iPhone one for that matter) and the rationale on it’s size.

As for FaceID, Apple is a company as we see above that takes design considerations very seriously. Apple’s design philosophy still exudes Jony Ive’s minimalism and distilled is “keep it simple.” There’s no point in having two authentication methods when it can be done with one. The redundancy would make things confusing. If you have to have a direct interaction with a button to initiate a purchase, then TouchID is sufficient. Makes you kind of think if they can fit TouchID into iPhone size buttons, would they opt for that instead of FaceID?

 

[cycomiko]

In a mask driven world, faceid is a pain.

Much much prefer touchid.

 

[Tagbert]

I guess I see it differently (though I really don't care whether FaceID is or isn't implemented on the laptop). iPad Pro when docked to the Apple Magic Keyboard, which is how my iPad Pro is often used, is pretty much how I envision FaceID on laptop would work:
- when notification wakes up iPad, if you have setup notification such that no previews are granted unless FaceID is positive, then you'll need to FaceID in to see preview. This requires no touch input because when notifications appear, it wakes up the iPad but doesn't log you in unless you're authorized via FaceID.
- when iPad is asleep, you either touch screen or tap keyboard to wake it up and automatically FaceID will detect whether you're an authorized user.
- when iPad is "closed" (i.e., Apple keyboard is closed), then when you open the keyboard, it will wake up the iPad and it will also use FaceID (without further interaction) to detect if you are an authorized user

I think this is how FaceID on a laptop, if implemented, would pretty much work like.

When making a payment on the iPad Pro you must double-click the sleep button to authorize even though you are recognized via FaceID

 

[Wokis]

Don’t like FaceID but honestly not a fan of the Touch ID in the iPad mini home button either. They should go for both and unlock if anything is a match.

As well as the option for siblings to turn off faceID as it clearly is less secure and kind of silly that they laughed that gaping security hole off with a Spock evil twin joke.

 

[Tagbert]

This actually has been an issue with programs that have longer menus ever since big sur spaced everything further apart.

Thanks for the tip, however I already remove the icons I don’t use. The biggest reason I have so many is that I use istat menus to monitor system resources.

I have bartender setup so that it displays the secondary panel of icons when I mouseover that area of the screen. That is where I keep my istat menu icons

 

[Tagbert]

What I want to know is why Apple and their fans think FaceID and TouchID have to be mutually exclusive.

They are not mutually exclusive. Many here have argued for having both on laptops and iMacs. Even on iPhones, if Apple can engineer a reliable Touch ID under screen.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The present 2021 MBP resembles the G4 MacBook boxy/squared with rounded edges design, similar to the TiBook. One could say the difference with the screen notch and rounded corners Liquid Retina display is new, but how is any of this not old just rehashed and still being considered innovative.

Anyone that considers the shape innovative shouldn’t. It’s not innovative, just like curving the lid isn’t innovative. It’s new, it’s different, but the shape would not be innovative. The screen technology at that particular thickness, refresh rate and brightness and the Apple Silicon processor are more along the lines of innovative as they’re new, advanced and unique.

 

[doolar]

While it would have been nice, I find TouchID to work really good on my laptop. Sure, in clamshell mode at work it doesn't work, but my Apple Watch will take care of that.

But yea - I wouldn't say no to FaceID on my Macbook Pro.

 

[rjohnstone]

My understanding of Windows Hello is that it is just a 2D photographic scan, using IR for low light - but otherwise just a normal webcam. As such it is not as secure, and, in particular, can be fooled by a photo of the user's face.

FaceID, on the other hand, uses its dot projector, combined with the IR camera, to produce a 3D map of the face and is, therefore, more secure. It's this component that is more problematic at these sizes.

False.
It is not a photographic scan. They use the IR camera to make a histogram map of your face with landmarks to identify you. They chose IR for two reasons. First, it produces a consistent image of your face regardless of lighting conditions, and second, the IR camera used for Windows Hello will not work with a photo. A photo is seen as a solid white block as IR light doesn't reflect off of a photo the same way a human face would.

Windows Hello face authentication

Windows Hello face authentication

docs.microsoft.com

 

[rjohnstone]

Windows Hello, when used with a camera is basically a photograph. It’s weak security. Some vendors have gone further with it by using an IR camera, but both of these are MAJOR steps back from the approach that FaceID uses.

The problem with windows Hello is it’s a lowest common denominator technology. Vendors can put actual further measures in place (like the IR I mentioned) but you can basically use the feature with a regular camera that can be defeated with a picture.

So yes, it’s an extremely different level of security.

Nope... Windows Hello ONLY works with an IR camera. It is not "basically a photograph" by any means.
IR cameras certified for Windows Hello cannot see photos or even images on a screen.

 

[darngooddesign]

Why would the whole display need to get thicker, only the top end where the camera is located and then tapered. Why would it look weird, there are many iconic designs Apple has released that looked weird in the beginning but became iconic. OG iMac, iMac G4 luxo lamp/flower pot, G4 Cube, MBA, etc.

Almost everything you mentioned didn't look weird at release.

Apple did what you are suggesting back with the Powerbook 500 series, the lid tapered and got thicker but the palm-rest design was curved to accommodate it. The main difference was that the bezels were huge so the LCDs were unaffected by the curve.

 

[GregJohn]

The way I just assumed they had Face ID because of the notch ?

 

[msackey]

When making a payment on the iPad Pro you must double-click the sleep button to authorize even though you are recognized via FaceID

Yes, that’s true, but doesn’t invalidate the use of FaceID on a laptop. It makes sense to request an interaction from the user before authorizing a payment. I suppose if FaceID were implemented on a laptop, that interaction request could come in the form of double-clicking the spacebar or some such.

 

[NT1440]

Nope... Windows Hello ONLY works with an IR camera. It is not "basically a photograph" by any means.
IR cameras certified for Windows Hello cannot see photos or even images on a screen.

Nope... Windows Hello ONLY works with an IR camera. It is not "basically a photograph" by any means.
IR cameras certified for Windows Hello cannot see photos or even images on a screen.

Bypassing Windows Hello Without Masks or Plastic Surgery

Biometric authentication is beginning to see rapid adoption across the enterprise as organizations look to incorporate passwordless solutions to help mitigate the numerous security risks inherent...

www.cyberark.com

As of August the fact that you can use an external camera further undermines it as a security function.

BUT, you were right, only integrated cameras with IR can be used, I was under the impression it could be any.

IR is definitely a better solution that a simple camera, but it’s still not as secure as FaceID to answer the question of the poster who asked.

Note that I’m not making a “does this make a difference in reality” determination, I’m going to implement it for my company in the coming months. I was just trying to get to Windows Hello type authentication not being a direct replacement for a FaceID implementation as it would *technically* (may not make a difference for end users) mark a step back in security for Apple.

 

[Enlightened Doggo]

Except changing glasses, except face masks, only when you hold it up. Faceid most definitely does “just work” if your only goal is getting off the lock screen and not actually securing your phone.

It supports multiple "looks" and it seems to have a wide FOV for me, so I have not encountered those problems. Maybe try re calibrating? I guess people still wearing masks when they aren't sick will just have to wait for the software update.

 

[Tagbert]

Yes, that’s true, but doesn’t invalidate the use of FaceID on a laptop. It makes sense to request an interaction from the user before authorizing a payment. I suppose if FaceID were implemented on a laptop, that interaction request could come in the form of double-clicking the spacebar or some such.

No. I was just pointing out to someone who thought that FaceID alone was enough for purchases on an iPad Pro.

I would like FaceID on a laptop in addition to TouchID. But I’m not holding my breath or worrying about it.

 

[code-m]

Almost everything you mentioned didn't look weird at release.

Apple did what you are suggesting back with the Powerbook 500 series, the lid tapered and got thicker but the palm-rest design was curved to accommodate it. The main difference was that the bezels were huge so the LCDs were unaffected by the curve.

G3 iBook that resembled a handbag or toilet seat also comes to mind. Having a tapered lid for a Mac laptop would not make it look weird and may even be considered innovative and unique considering the loose definition by Apple marketing.

 

[code-m]

No. I was just pointing out to someone who thought that FaceID alone was enough for purchases on an iPad Pro.

I would like FaceID on a laptop in addition to TouchID. But I’m not holding my breath or worrying about it.

It would be nice if TouchID on the Mac would permit secure factory reset with a 3-4 button press or a long press with a pop-up window for confirmation. Similar to iPhone when activating SOS.

 

[DanVM]

It’s very different. Windows Hello does not make a 3D map of your face and is not used for payment authentication - it is much less secure and less complex. Yes, there are certain camera requirements for Hello, but it’s still not like Face ID.

Based in this link, Windows Hello makes a 3D map of your face,
“It’s actually building a 3D map of your face. It has depth and characteristics, and we use multi-spectrum analysis so we’re getting multiple images of your face from different perspectives.”

What’s the solution to the growing problem of passwords? You, says Microsoft - Stories

news.microsoft.com

And it looks like you can use Windows Hello for payment authentication in Google Chrome,

Google Chrome supports "Windows Hello" face unlock and fingerprint for payment authentication

Google Chrome now supports Windows Hello authentication, allowing users to enter their payment details using the fingerprint scanner or face unlock.

www.xda-developers.com