Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
One of the biggest issues to me is that there is nothing exciting about anything with some of the products anymore outside of specifications. Design is one of my biggest gripes.

Case in point: laptops. If you saw someone at a distance in a coffee shop with a Titanium PowerBook from 2001, you wouldn't think twice about it. It's just another Apple laptop. Sure, there have been some design changes over 21 years, but there's nothing that really makes anything stand out.

Remember when we looked forward to the appearance of new iMacs? They've been the most utilitarian looking machine now since the G5 came out. Sure, we have colors now, but it's not enough.

iOS hasn't really changed in appearance since version 7. I'm glad macOS got more colorful, but iOS really needs a revamp or at least some customization options.

As far as revolutionary new features or products, I think those are becoming something of the past, but we're at the point now where there's no excitement.

Even the earlier Macs had more excitement in their design. There's a distinct character difference between a Mac Plus, Mac SE, and Mac Classic. That just doesn't exist with the same line of products anymore, whether it's an iPhone, a laptop, an iMac, etc.

In the early years of any product, there is a lot of variance in designs because a dominant form factor has not emerged yet.

Once it does, all products adopt it, because the market has deemed it the best design.

This has happened over and over again in countless industries. Just think it TVs, car radios, or printers.

At the end of the day, a laptop is a keyboard and a screen.

What form factor do you deem better than what Apple currently has?

If you want a different design purely for the sake of different, then Apple is not the company you thought it was.
 
I guess he's talking about design. Last time Apple tried a ground breaking design they ended up with the emoji keyboards that break if you sneeze wrong at them. Oh, and let's not forget the trash can.

I drove a friend's Tesla. One of the rear doors didn't align with the car body, straight from the factory. Maybe they should give less design lessons.
 
I guess he's talking about design. Last time Apple tried a ground breaking design they ended up with the emoji keyboards that break if you sneeze wrong at them. Oh, and let's not forget the trash can.

I drove a friend's Tesla. One of the rear doors didn't align with the car body, straight from the factory. Maybe they should give less design lessons.
I understand the hurt over the 2013 Mac Pro, but I bl00dy loved mine! It was great, and when people sae it in the flesh they loved it. That's good design. It may not have had the right thermals or whatever, but the look was superb.

I can't tell one Tesla from another.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr.PT and Pezimak
Someone a bunch of pages back said the iMac has been a slate of glass for years. Correct, but what else could it be? Screens are thin and flat; there are only so many things you can do with a thin rectangle, and bulking out a computer just to give it a different look doesn't make economical or environmental sense.

I wish they'd release a new 'lamp' iMac (2004?); they were lovely, but again, it wouldn't have an optical disc drive or an HDD in it (it would use an SSD) so wouldn't need to be as bulky. It'd end up being a Mac mini with a screen on it, which is just like the current iMac but with the internals behind the screen.
 
All the teslas look the same lol.

They nerfed the model 3 OTA when they announced the model 3 performance. (kinda like when apple didn’t tell anyone they slowed down fhe phones because of the battery)

I still would love to see the new coupe (not the old lotus) make it to prod. I really have doubts the truck will ever come.

The Tesla mandatory OTA updates really turn me off. Id rather drive a faster CE hah. But if I would ever get a tesla i’d put a baseball card in the spokes so it sounds cooler LOL.

Everyone I know that owns one likes to talk about it all the time too LOLOL
 
Someone a bunch of pages back said the iMac has been a slate of glass for years. Correct, but what else could it be? Screens are thin and flat; there are only so many things you can do with a thin rectangle, and bulking out a computer just to give it a different look doesn't make economical or environmental sense.

I wish they'd release a new 'lamp' iMac (2004?); they were lovely, but again, it wouldn't have an optical disc drive or an HDD in it (it would use an SSD) so wouldn't need to be as bulky. It'd end up being a Mac mini with a screen on it, which is just like the current iMac but with the internals behind the screen.
I love my lamp imac .. i turned it on like 2 times just to change the ram haha it’s just decoration now.

That being said obviously MS Surface studio pretty much ran with the iMac idea but I do love how you can use it as a tablet. Too bad the ipad is better. They are super expensive too but a lot of companies buy them for the designers.

edit: and someone on MR took out the guts of the lamp and put in an M1 MacMini …. i wish i could buy that !!
 
Tesla does not even update their cars annually. In its entire run, the Model S has had only 1 iterative revision. I can barely tell the Model 3 and the Model Y apart. Only two new things they have done are Model X (which has not significantly changed since release) and the (gag) cybertruck which they have not delivered.

Of all people to complain that Apple is not doing anything new in design it should not be coming from this guy. Even copycat Samsung has done more drastic innovative designs with their foldable phones.

UPDATE: I figured out what he must have meant by “There’s Nothing to Look Forward To”. He thinks Apple should announce more products and services that they are not going to deliver for years or ever. That way you can look forward to them.

Tesla has set the example here:
- Tesla Semi
- Tesla Roadster
- Tesla Cybertruck

And the best one of all… the one you can pay for in advance while looking forward to it and hoping it will one day work:
- Tesla Full Self Driving
Tesla Roadster
Tesla Cybertruck

I would love to see these get made, but I personally am not sure it would happen. I wonder how much the original Tesla coupe (Lotus modified) is worth right now!
 
Reminds me of that exchange about 15 years ago with Bill Gates saying something like, 'If the car industry was anything like the computer industry cars would do several thousand miles on a tank of gas now and cost $500'.
The chairman of GM fired back that if it were anything like the computer industry cars would crash every day and sometimes for no reason they'd shut down. You’d have one light in the middle of the dash which said ‘general car fault’ you’d have to hold the door catch and the arial at the same time to shut off the engine and Apple would produce a car powered by sunlight, be twice as fast as the competition and really easy to drive but could only travel on 5% of the roads.
That's how I remember it anyway. Probably apocryphal but great fun.
 
???
Tesla chef designer moaning about lack of creativity from others brands.
Tesla chef designer moaning about lack of content from others products.
Tesla, the new .com bubble chef.
ROTLF
 
  • Haha
Reactions: SigEp265
I understand the hurt over the 2013 Mac Pro, but I bl00dy loved mine! It was great, and when people sae it in the flesh they loved it. That's good design. It may not have had the right thermals or whatever, but the look was superb.

I can't tell one Tesla from another.
We had a trash can Mac Pro in our office, it was awful. Looks are only one aspect of design.
 
"The sad part about Apple products now is like there's nothing to look forward to...."

Well, that's not true. There is still AirPower :p
 
Tesla does not even update their cars annually. In its entire run, the Model S has had only 1 iterative revision. I can barely tell the Model 3 and the Model Y apart. Only two new things they have done are Model X (which has not significantly changed since release) and the (gag) cybertruck which they have not delivered.

Of all people to complain that Apple is not doing anything new in design it should not be coming from this guy. Even copycat Samsung has done more drastic innovative designs with their foldable phones.

UPDATE: I figured out what he must have meant by “There’s Nothing to Look Forward To”. He thinks Apple should announce more products and services that they are not going to deliver for years or ever. That way you can look forward to them.

Tesla has set the example here:
- Tesla Semi
- Tesla Roadster
- Tesla Cybertruck

And the best one of all… the one you can pay for in advance while looking forward to it and hoping it will one day work:
- Tesla Full Self Driving
I think your comment needs to be reported due to a severe burn :D
 
Let's be real here, isn't he right?

I own an Apple Laptop, the 13 pro max (switched from 6s+), an apple watch 5 and the 6th gen ipad.

And there is absolutly no need for me to upgrade any of the other devices since Apple isn't producing Killer Features with ne devices.
Also the Software, at least for the ipad, really limits the device.

And if we look at the competition at Musicstreaming, Videostreaming, Smart Home devices, Siri, iWorks, iCloud etc. the competitors have surpassed Apple years ago and Apple really can't compete.

So i think he is right. Apple has a comfortable Position and is really not trying any revolutionary stuff out, its more relying on the same stuff every year with slowly evolving features.
 
Interesting for Tesla to say that, last time I checked Apples products didn't literally fall apart when it rained. Because they aren't held together with electrical tape....

Tesla is THE last manufacture to lecture anyone on design. Removing nearly all buttons making driving more dangerous is stupid enough. Want to see a perfect form over function example? Just look at a Tesla.

All IMO of course.
 
The reason Tesla might seem exciting is because not everyone has an EV. Whereas everyone has a smartphone. Tesla is making same or similar cars every year. So has every other car manufacturer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SigEp265
hello, macrumors users. no need to get offended. they attacked apple, not you.
In this forum you get mainly (but not exclusively) 2 group of people 1) Apple fans 2) Apple haters. And therefore both groups have an opinion about any article written in here. It does not look to me that the commentators feel being attacked by Tesla. They simply point out the silliness of that guy called Franz, that's all.
 
Great point!

This is something that longtime Apple observers like John Gruber and Asymco have been saying forever - the mass market thinks Apple's forte is creating novel new products, but in reality, their DNA has always been yearly iteration of every product, a relentless focus on refinement and improvement in every facet.

This may not be all that interesting to those who want a big splash from year to year, but over several years, this relentless focus on refinement compounds into truly amazing products.

That's what Apple really is, but most observers just can't see it.

You are missing the big piece; the iPhone.
It was a revolutionary product that continues to this day to drive the Apple success model.
What is and when will Apple come out with another "iPhone" type of product that will drive their business for the future?
 
I guess he's talking about design. Last time Apple tried a ground breaking design they ended up with the emoji keyboards that break if you sneeze wrong at them. Oh, and let's not forget the trash can.

I drove a friend's Tesla. One of the rear doors didn't align with the car body, straight from the factory. Maybe they should give less design lessons.

Well, the Trash can was fantastic for 2-3 years... then they screwed up the updates. They should have kept it as a "Mac" and made it have $2K

This is true about Tesla and I have a Y coming in a few weeks :D .

Thankfully from the Bejing Factory where the Build and quality Paint etc is a magnitude better than Fremont.

But yes while the Telsas are functional and inoffensive, they can't be said to be groundbreaking or design masterpieces. They are very fast jelly moulds on wheels. Where as Apple has consistantly made interesting and bold designs.

The Trucks are more interesting - but currently not real!
 
I love Apple products but it is true. You guys are so offended xD such Apple fanboys... you have to be able to accept the truth. Don't go criticize Tesla to avoid reasoning about Apple. Most innovative thing in the last years are the Airpods. There's been nothing else as revolutionary as the iPhone. The Apple Watch is only interesting for the fitness/health side and they definitely have to keep improving on that aspect (fitness+ helped), other than that, it's just a phone and notification center, which I already have enough with the iPhone.

A lot of the features of new iOS updates or iPhone iterations are not even being used normally, Cinema Mode? Nobody. Most people don't even know about new features, because they don't need them or change their life that much. Being able to take macro photos? oh thank you i do that every day... Best feature is being able to throw it in the pool or save it from water damage. That's why is boring. I buy an iPhone every 3 years, it's the same, fancy new design, the 'wow' effect lasts for a day.

But also, don't force new things. Take a look at the new macbook pro. It's just bringing back what was working before. So many years of 'now 20% slimmer', yes, but less ports and the magsafe out and the touchbar such a posh addition which was not worth it. And a 2000$ computer which has a keyboard that doesn't work. They even fail at basics sometimes. My new M1 Pro has crackling sound problems, i've seen people having this issues on the web, it's not acceptable. And let's see the VR/AR headset, which I've never found interesting, most of us don't use the ARKit possibilities.

Apple Silicon looks interesting but for most people, they don't even care. Maybe the fact that they are more silent or have longer battery is the most interesting thing!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dk001
Having just spent a long weekend in a new P75D... Holzhausen and I need to talk.

The Model S, which I previously shot down in a test drive and then again a three-day weekend, is just not a great car.

What is good about the Model S? About 2 years ago, the range and superchargers. Now, like a US citizen insisting they're "free," I hate to inform you, everybody's got it these days.

What is terrible about the Model S you ask? The styling is just typical American car, a typical lack of refinement (doors sound and feel cheap when closed), the ACC/Autopilot freaks out with every bit of wet, snow, dirt, and tunnel it comes across, operating the ACC is painful with a ridiculous short stem off the steering column, stop-and-go traffic behaviour is rough/sickening and requires manual management of speed, the god awful overly busy-ridiculous-central screen and its meh navigational system, backing camera is useless in winter (within an hour of cleaning the car), the windshield wipers are absolute rubbish, the windshield wiper fluid sprayer is absolutely terrible and tends to deactivate ACC, the sound system was not great and taking a call in the car was consistently difficult to hear and of course it lacks CarPlay support. It is a big car, which is fine if you don't live in a proper urban center, but for me the size and turning radius are major drawbacks given the unreliable backing camera.

Autosteer/pilot or whatever they're calling it now has absolutely zero chance of working in an all-camera based system (Tesla Vision) as it is today. I predict this feature will ultimately be central to a class-action lawsuit. Maybe, you could fool yourself into thinking cameras would get the job done if you lived in arid conditions with little precipitation and big putting green like roads, maybe Southern California to west Texas, but I assure you this will not work if it snows and rains in more seasonal climes. This car MUST have a forward facing radar to even function with reliable (Adaptive Cruise Control) ACC. In the case of winter snow conditions you need to clean some of the cameras within an hour of even mild highway conditions for ACC to not be a constant on-again-off-again affair. The wipers are particularly poor around the area of the forward facing cameras and will also cause the ACC to fail. Low sun conditions and wet ground are also challenging for it. In summary, it took me three days with the car to realise this will never be fully autonomous. It won't ever be close to fully autonomous. It isn't a software problem, it is a fundamental design problem. (Just in case anyone at Tesla reads this - our VW eGolf has rock-sold ACC. You can manage speed reliably with your thumb in stop and go traffic, highway driving and inclement weather. But of course it has radar that doesn't care if it is snowing, raining, or the sun is so blinding that it is impossible to see.)

It is hard to be positive about Tesla on any other front, beyond range and supercharging, which is as I wrote above are no longer the only game in town. Certainly, not at this price point.

Frankly, the iD.3/4/5, while I'm not a fan of the haptic controls on the wheel, are all around better cars. I have an iD.3 for the next few weeks and it is just nice. The eTron from Audi is what I would get if I was in the Model X market. Personally, I'm leaning towards the BMW i.4 to replace our e-Golf. The MachE from Ford also seems to be a solid contender and several neighbours have purchased them.

Given the above, I'm just not sure why Holzhausen and company think they can provide any real criticism to Apple. I tend to think that Tesla and its zealots actually have seriously overvalued this company not realising what business they're in. When they realise the automobile business is a manufacturing at scale business, not a tech gadget one, we should see a more realistic market valuation and maybe more humility.
 
Last edited:
To be fair, he does have a point. Most of Apple’s products are iterative because they aren’t in new product categories and can feel slight boring. But if you look at products from 3 to 4 years ago rather than products from last year, the changes are still quite significant. Tesla will be like that too in a few years once they push out their major car types and services like self driving and the trucks. After that it will become iterative like their current cars models. Not everything needs to be reinvented every year. Evolution is what actually helps most products reach their full potential.
Yup. I have not listened to the interview, but if many smart people here realize it’s not possible to radically reinvent year after year after year, and not everything needs to be reinvented every year, then why can’t smart people like chief Franz? Lamenting not having something new to look forward to from Apple on a regular basis doesn’t seem to be based in reality.

The need to force reinvention is what brings crap like butterfly keyboards and flat design. :)
 
Personally I think this has everything to do with perception.

Apple created the iPhone - a revolutionary product that has driven an industry.
What is and when will we see the next "iPhone"?
If it isn't Apple, who will come out with the next "iPhone"?

Apple pretty much drove the modern smartphone segment.
Tesla is driving the current surge in electric people movers.
Not sure what the next big thing from either company will be.
 
Personally I think this has everything to do with perception.

Apple created the iPhone - a revolutionary product that has driven an industry.
What is and when will we see the next "iPhone"?
If it isn't Apple, who will come out with the next "iPhone"?
I think you’re shortchanging things. I consider the iPad, ultra thin but powerful laptop w/o optical drive, and AirPods to be rather revolutionary. Each certainly was revolutionary for me; I felt the iPad was going to be a hit the moment I heard rumor of it, but I mocked the AirPods and MacBook Air initially, only to be pleasantly surprised after I was “converted” and saw the light. :)
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.