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Tesla Design Chief on Apple Products: 'There's Nothing to Look Forward To'

dk001 said:
You are missing the big piece; the iPhone.
It was a revolutionary product that continues to this day to drive the Apple success model.
What is and when will Apple come out with another "iPhone" type of product that will drive their business for the future?
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The iPhone is a unicorn - the most profitable product ever created. It's going to hard to top that.

Also, are we ignoring the Apple Watch and AirPods? Because combined they are a Fortune 500 company.

Just because there another iPhone hasn't come along doesn't mean Apple isn't standing still
 
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Was the key designer at Apple Jonny? What was the last thing he worked on, MacBook Pro Design (not the new retro one)!, AirPods?

I'm not exactly a fan of the new iPhone 13 Pro but I have it because I upgrade every year. I think with the iPhone side of things, we've possibly reached a point with the tech we can't do much. We go lighter, fatter, better camera repeat. Until the next gen devices comes along.

Oh Tesla what you saying about the M1?!
 
Ahhh, I really want to, but do I have the energy to dip my toes into this bloody design discussion?
No.

But I would like to quote Steve:

“Design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.”
— Steve Jobs.
​
And perhaps of all designers, I am a bit disappointed that Franz doesn't get that. He really should know.

PS: I am a huge fan of both Tesla and Apple.
 
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palmerc said:
Having just spent a long weekend in a new P75D... Holzhausen and I need to talk.

The Model S, which I previously shot down in a test drive and then again a three-day weekend, is just not a great car.

What is good about the Model S? About 2 years ago, the range and superchargers. Now, like a US citizen insisting they're "free," I hate to inform you, everybody's got it these days.

What is terrible about the Model S you ask? The styling is just typical American car, a typical lack of refinement (doors sound and feel cheap when closed), the ACC/Autopilot freaks out with every bit of wet, snow, dirt, and tunnel it comes across, operating the ACC is painful with a ridiculous short stem off the steering column, stop-and-go traffic behaviour is rough/sickening and requires manual management of speed, the god awful overly busy-ridiculous-central screen and its meh navigational system, backing camera is useless in winter (within an hour of cleaning the car), the windshield wipers are absolute rubbish, the windshield wiper fluid sprayer is absolutely terrible and tends to deactivate ACC, the sound system was not great and taking a call in the car was consistently difficult to hear and of course it lacks CarPlay support. It is a big car, which is fine if you don't live in a proper urban center, but for me the size and turning radius are major drawbacks given the unreliable backing camera.

It is hard to be positive about Tesla on any other front, beyond range and supercharging, which is as I wrote above are no longer the only game in town. Certainly, not at this price point.

Frankly, the iD.3/4/5, while I'm not a fan of the haptic controls on the wheel, are all around better cars. I have an iD.3 for the next few weeks and it is just nice. The eTron from Audi is what I would get if I was in the Model X market. Personally, I'm leaning towards the BMW i.4 to replace our e-Golf. The MachE from Ford also seems to be a solid contender and several neighbours have purchased them.
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I have none of those issues at all in my 3. Or my X before. Totally agree with the lack of Carplay / Apple music as a direct source but that is coming at least.

id.3 and 4 are nice - but the UI is terrible and laggy. The eTron is nice to drive but massive outside and tiny inside. I'd have a BMW - but they are all so damn ugly. I mean th iX has to be one of the worst looking cars ever.

Asia's Cars actually look the most interesting.
 
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Ok, I'm a fan of Apple and Tesla and heavily into both - I own a Tesla Model 3 and a lot of Apple products (and stock in both companies).

That being said - I have to wonder about the motivation for his remarks. Except for the very late Cybertruck, there's not a lot of 'new design' coming from Tesla - and that was shown a LONG time ago. Everything else has been an incremental improvement. Software updates, hardware ticks here and there.

You know what is forefront most in my head about these two companies?

Tesla: Stop hiking the prices on the Model 3 and Y (or I'll never be able to get one for my wife to replace her Camry). Or at least lower them once you work out your supply chain issues. Add CarPlay and Android Auto. Stop concentrating on games and random fart noise apps and put out more native streaming apps like SiriusXM and Apple Music. Allow driver profiles to be loaded from the cloud when you rent a Tesla - and make enough of them so that I *can* rent a Tesla when I'm away from home! Fix the heat pump problem.

Apple: Get the periscope zoom lens technology into the next iPhone and replace the Lightning connector with USB-C/Thunderbolt (and let us TRULY move all apps and data over that fast wire to a new phone - I still have to manually download all my Kindle data, hundreds of books & magazines from over a decade of purchases, when I go to a new phone). Do the same with the Air Pod Max and I'll buy one. Make the AirPods (pro and otherwise) have a case with UWB that responds to Find My so I can figure out where in the house I left them. Allow me to have more than 256GB in an iPad mini and I'll upgrade!

What's the common thread above. Design? No. FEATURES. Things that actually DO stuff.
 
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BC2009 said:
UPDATE: I figured out what he must have meant by “There’s Nothing to Look Forward To”. He thinks Apple should announce more products and services that they are not going to deliver for years or ever. That way you can look forward to them.

Tesla has set the example here:
- Tesla Semi
- Tesla Roadster
- Tesla Cybertruck

And the best one of all… the one you can pay for in advance while looking forward to it and hoping it will one day work:
- Tesla Full Self Driving
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You are absolutely correct -- so lets see which hits general sales first: the Tesla Cybertruck, the Tesla Semi or the Apple Car? (Tesla FSD is in public beta -- there the question is, when will it go from beta to general release, and when various regulators approve it. Mind you, I am NOT claiming the public beta is ready for prime time)

Lastly, while the dig against the Roadster and Cybertruck are fair, the one against the Tesla Semi really isn't. AFAIK, it is ready to be released -- what they are waiting for is vastly expanded 4680 battery production as well as Tesla Semi charger facilities. If neither the Semi nor the Cybertruck get wide releases in 2023 -- I am going to eat massive crow
 
palmerc said:
Having just spent a long weekend in a new P75D... Holzhausen and I need to talk.

The Model S, which I previously shot down in a test drive and then again a three-day weekend, is just not a great car.

What is good about the Model S? About 2 years ago, the range and superchargers. Now, like a US citizen insisting they're "free," I hate to inform you, everybody's got it these days.

What is terrible about the Model S you ask? The styling is just typical American car, a typical lack of refinement (doors sound and feel cheap when closed), the ACC/Autopilot freaks out with every bit of wet, snow, dirt, and tunnel it comes across, operating the ACC is painful with a ridiculous short stem off the steering column, stop-and-go traffic behaviour is rough/sickening and requires manual management of speed, the god awful overly busy-ridiculous-central screen and its meh navigational system, backing camera is useless in winter (within an hour of cleaning the car), the windshield wipers are absolute rubbish, the windshield wiper fluid sprayer is absolutely terrible and tends to deactivate ACC, the sound system was not great and taking a call in the car was consistently difficult to hear and of course it lacks CarPlay support. It is a big car, which is fine if you don't live in a proper urban center, but for me the size and turning radius are major drawbacks given the unreliable backing camera.

Autosteer/pilot or whatever they're calling it now has absolutely zero chance of working in an all-camera based system (Tesla Vision) as it is today. I predict this feature will ultimately be central to a class-action lawsuit. Maybe, you could fool yourself into thinking cameras would get the job done if you lived in arid conditions with little precipitation and big putting green like roads, maybe Southern California to west Texas, but I assure you this will not work if it snows and rains in more seasonal climes. This car MUST have a forward facing radar to even function with reliable (Adaptive Cruise Control) ACC. In the case of winter snow conditions you need to clean some of the cameras within an hour of even mild highway conditions for ACC to not be a constant on-again-off-again affair. The wipers are particularly poor around the area of the forward facing cameras and will also cause the ACC to fail. Low sun conditions and wet ground are also challenging for it. In summary, it took me three days with the car to realise this will never be fully autonomous. It won't ever be close to fully autonomous. It isn't a software problem, it is a fundamental design problem. (Just in case anyone at Tesla reads this - our VW eGolf has rock-sold ACC. You can manage speed reliably with your thumb in stop and go traffic, highway driving and inclement weather. But of course it has radar that doesn't care if it is snowing, raining, or the sun is so blinding that it is impossible to see.)

It is hard to be positive about Tesla on any other front, beyond range and supercharging, which is as I wrote above are no longer the only game in town. Certainly, not at this price point.

Frankly, the iD.3/4/5, while I'm not a fan of the haptic controls on the wheel, are all around better cars. I have an iD.3 for the next few weeks and it is just nice. The eTron from Audi is what I would get if I was in the Model X market. Personally, I'm leaning towards the BMW i.4 to replace our e-Golf. The MachE from Ford also seems to be a solid contender and several neighbours have purchased them.

Given the above, I'm just not sure why Holzhausen and company think they can provide any real criticism to Apple. I tend to think that Tesla and its zealots actually have seriously overvalued this company not realising what business they're in. When they realise the automobile business is a manufacturing at scale business, not a tech gadget one, we should see a more realistic market valuation and maybe more humility.
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A new P75D?
 
djplong said:
Ok, I'm a fan of Apple and Tesla and heavily into both - I own a Tesla Model 3 and a lot of Apple products (and stock in both companies).

That being said - I have to wonder about the motivation for his remarks. Except for the very late Cybertruck, there's not a lot of 'new design' coming from Tesla - and that was shown a LONG time ago. Everything else has been an incremental improvement. Software updates, hardware ticks here and there.

You know what is forefront most in my head about these two companies?

Tesla: Stop hiking the prices on the Model 3 and Y (or I'll never be able to get one for my wife to replace her Camry). Or at least lower them once you work out your supply chain issues. Add CarPlay and Android Auto. Stop concentrating on games and random fart noise apps and put out more native streaming apps like SiriusXM and Apple Music. Allow driver profiles to be loaded from the cloud when you rent a Tesla - and make enough of them so that I *can* rent a Tesla when I'm away from home! Fix the heat pump problem.

Apple: Get the periscope zoom lens technology into the next iPhone and replace the Lightning connector with USB-C/Thunderbolt (and let us TRULY move all apps and data over that fast wire to a new phone - I still have to manually download all my Kindle data, hundreds of books & magazines from over a decade of purchases, when I go to a new phone). Do the same with the Air Pod Max and I'll buy one. Make the AirPods (pro and otherwise) have a case with UWB that responds to Find My so I can figure out where in the house I left them. Allow me to have more than 256GB in an iPad mini and I'll upgrade!

What's the common thread above. Design? No. FEATURES. Things that actually DO stuff.
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Good summery, but I'd have today the Semi is a very cool design (though in fairness it is much older than the Cybertruck). As far as the Model 3/Y prices -- it is all about catching up with demand -- even at these jacked up prices, you can buy a Model 3 or Y right now and as soon as you get it resell it for a solid profit. The waits are over 6 months now, even as Tesla production keeps going up (the last quarter was at a 1.2 million cars annually). Yes, the chip shortage matters, but what will really make a difference is getting the Austin and Berlin factories in full production -- those crazy long waiting lists will start going back down. When we got our Model Y in 2020 our wait was like 3 weeks (at a much lower price). The crazy demand is new.
 
m4mario said:
The reason Tesla might seem exciting is because not everyone has an EV. Whereas everyone has a smartphone. Tesla is making same or similar cars every year. So has every other car manufacturer.
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I dono … I like my 3.0 TT compared to my torqueless 3.7 NA motor ha :)

Tesla hasn’t upgraded anything except for software, price tags, and some bumpers and suspension— The overall body style remains the same.

The “performance” models (although way faster) also nerfed the standard models with OTA update.
 
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Tozovac said:
I think you’re shortchanging things. I consider the iPad, ultra thin but powerful laptop w/o optical drive, and AirPods to be rather revolutionary. Each certainly was revolutionary for me; I felt the iPad was going to be a hit the moment I heard rumor of it, but I mocked the AirPods and MacBook Air initially, only to be pleasantly surprised after I was “converted” and saw the light. :)
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100% agree iPad Pro is superior. I think mainly because of the software, however.

Edit: I tried the airpods but I hated them. But also I like the Beats X because I won’t lose one of the ear buds ha
 
Did this guy fix the armor glass of the Tesla Cybertruck? Please fix your own problems before commenting on others.
But glad to hear he uses the Apple Watch so that he can reach his fitness goals and wear hideous skinny pants.
 
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When did Tesla produce it's first consumer car and how does it look than and now ? Same old. Apple at least makes over all design change to products, lot more often.
 
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His comments did nothing to improve Tesla's image, senior executives should just ST-FU and stick to their job and leave statements like these to people that make a career out of making stupid statements.
 
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Ted13 said:
You are absolutely correct -- so lets see which hits general sales first: the Tesla Cybertruck, the Tesla Semi or the Apple Car? (Tesla FSD is in public beta -- there the question is, when will it go from beta to general release, and when various regulators approve it. Mind you, I am NOT claiming the public beta is ready for prime time)

Lastly, while the dig against the Roadster and Cybertruck are fair, the one against the Tesla Semi really isn't. AFAIK, it is ready to be released -- what they are waiting for is vastly expanded 4680 battery production as well as Tesla Semi charger facilities. If neither the Semi nor the Cybertruck get wide releases in 2023 -- I am going to eat massive crow
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To be fair, Apple Car is not even an announced product from Apple.

The only whiff from Apple in recent years was the AirPower which faced quality control problems according to rumors.

The big homerun from Apple in recent years are AirPods which managed to take the stale headphone industry and revolutionize it so that now everybody is making AirPod clones.

The less obvious homerun is Apple silicon. Let’s give that a year or two to pan out and see if Intel can close the gap or if the margin widens.
 
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I wouldn’t exactly say a “refinement”. Ever since Sir Ives left it has gone downhill. Especially in regards to the UI design (Big Sur Icons). It feels to me like Ives and his team perfected the MacBooks and the new design chief wanted to make a mark by changing the design for the worse. Yes, proper ports are great, but the black surround of the keyboards and the overall body of the M1 MacBook Pro is terrible, looks like a pre unibody MacBook Pro mixed with a PowerBook.
 
Hilarious the paranoia and the attacks on Tesla just because one employee at Tesla makes a throw away comment about Apple during a wide ranging interview.
For most companies, which includes both Apple and Tesla, most new products are a refinement of the previous model. Revolutionary changes, such as click-wheel to touch-screen ipod, are rare and can’t happen on an annual basis. Indeed you’d have to ask serious questions about any company radically changing their products every single year.
He’s a designer, so he’s just looking at the external design, to him it makes no difference that Apple has made a huge revolutionary change in chipsets. Just like most of us when looking at a car wouldn’t get excited by changes to the chemical composition of the battery inside.

Keep calm and carry on.
 
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