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The 2009 (Gainestown) Mac Pro: Everything We Know
- Thread starter Tallest Skil
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Stop trolling here. We're just getting a little excited about the new Mac Pro. Apple has waited SO long for a refresh. In the end, it will only benefit buyers with newer hardware (Intel specifically).
Best Guess
As Intel expects to start shipping the Gainstown on March 29, you can start hoping for a Mac Pro using them to actually ship no less than 6 weeks later. So mid-May at best.
As Intel expects to start shipping the Gainstown on March 29, you can start hoping for a Mac Pro using them to actually ship no less than 6 weeks later. So mid-May at best.
Here is an interesting article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/06/apple_ends_g4_support/
Coincidently, the quoted date of March 17th happens to fall on a Tuesday
Another vicious rumor no doubt but does this hint at anything else?
...also in the news is the early release of the updated Intel Atom chips:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/06/intel_ships_n280_chips_early/
Things are beginning to hot up a little, makes sense as the netbook market for 2009 should do better than most as these lower cost devices gain popularity during these tough economic times.
As for the Gainestown, VMware is the game changer for these CPUs when installed into server blades allowing for greater datacenter efficienties - a good reason for not hanging on to old servers, especially so in this economy. I can't think why Intel would want to hold these back unlike the less popular Itanium.
BTW folloing on from a previous thread, here is something on zero financing:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/30/hp_smb_financing/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/06/apple_ends_g4_support/
Coincidently, the quoted date of March 17th happens to fall on a Tuesday
Another vicious rumor no doubt but does this hint at anything else?
...also in the news is the early release of the updated Intel Atom chips:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/06/intel_ships_n280_chips_early/
Things are beginning to hot up a little, makes sense as the netbook market for 2009 should do better than most as these lower cost devices gain popularity during these tough economic times.
As for the Gainestown, VMware is the game changer for these CPUs when installed into server blades allowing for greater datacenter efficienties - a good reason for not hanging on to old servers, especially so in this economy. I can't think why Intel would want to hold these back unlike the less popular Itanium.
BTW folloing on from a previous thread, here is something on zero financing:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/30/hp_smb_financing/
It is done the same way.
Use drivers with the board (RAID function provided in OS X) using the existing hardware (logic board). Or if go with a hardware solution.
It just depends on what you need/want.
Easy is relative. Especially with RAID.
Does the Mac Pro not support SATA hardware RAID as most PC motherboards do? You can set them up at BIOS level etc but only at basic levels like 0,1 and 5. I thought it did but perhaps Mac OS doesn't support it?
By the way, sorry for little comment on the current global finance, I didn't expect it to spark a full on debate. Ooops
Does the Mac Pro not support SATA hardware RAID as most PC motherboards do? You can set them up at BIOS level etc but only at basic levels like 0,1 and 5. I thought it did but perhaps Mac OS doesn't support it?
By the way, sorry for little comment on the current global finance, I didn't expect it to spark a full on debate. Ooops
The 'hardware raid' that is on PC motherboards is not actually Hardware raid. It's just a drive controller that can utilise a software driver to offload the RAID calculations to the central CPU. It works exactly how Software raid works but it has a Driver instead of using the built in Operating Systems drive system.
The Mac Pro is not any different from this. It contains a normal Hard Disk drive controller which with an appropriate driver could do Software Raid with a Driver. But Apple just use the built in OS X Software RAID system.
If you want Hardware Raid your need to purchase a dedicated card for it. I do not know of any Motherboard that includes real Hardware Raid on-board. And by real Hardware Raid I mean a dedicated CPU for RAID parity and control without using the main system processor
Speaking of Hardware Raid, I recently purchased a High Point 2320 card and it is amazing 8 Ports SATAII PCIe x4 connection to the motherboard. Performance:
This is a Benchmark I ran on the card on my Server configured with 8x1TB Samsung Drives in RAID5. Now this card is note-worthy for 3 reasons.
First of all it has drivers for Windows 2000/XP/2003/Vista (32-bit & 64-bit) Linux (32-bit & 64-bit, Most distros + Source avalible) and BSD (Including Mac OS X specific support).
Performance, the card hits 500MB/ps Read with 8 drives in RAID5 with only 8-10% CPU utilisation.
And finally Price £223 GBP. It's one of the most affordable cards I've ever seen and used I highly recommend it to anyone that is after Hardware Raid on a PCIe system.
So to recap.
- 500MB/ps+ Read Performance under RAID5 (600+ under RAID0)
- 400MB/ps+ Write performance under RAID5 (500+ under RAID0)
- Full Driver support under Windows Linux and Mac OS X
- Very affordable at £223 GBP (exc VAT)
- PCIe x4 Interface (Future Proof)
- Comes with 8 very high quality SATA cables
Now naturally the Mac Pro only has 4 SATA ports. But that may not always be the case so I'd personally buy this 8 card for that just-in-case scenario that Apple open it up to more drives in a future revision. OR you may want to reuse your second optical drive bay for use in the array for a swap disc or parity drive (for redundancy). I've not actually used this card under OS X but from what I hear it performs fine under BSD/OS X. I've found it to be brilliant under Win2K3 (64-bit and 32-bit).
Does the Mac Pro not support SATA hardware RAID as most PC motherboards do? You can set them up at BIOS level etc but only at basic levels like 0,1 and 5. I thought it did but perhaps Mac OS doesn't support it?
By the way, sorry for little comment on the current global finance, I didn't expect it to spark a full on debate. Ooops
99.9% of motherboards don't do hardware raid.
Hardware raid uses a separate controller for parity calculations, has a battery backed write cache etc. and costs accordingly.
Like the man said; what motherboards do (and even most easily available "RAID cards" do is passthrough, where the CPU handles everything.
Since OS X can boot off of a self-hosted RAID, there's no actual difference between a generic PC motherboard and Apple's PC motherboards.
Edit: damn, ninja'd!
Are you INSANE?
8x1TB RAID 5 is not a smart thing to do.
When a disk fails, we're talking an insanely long time to rebuild the array.
You'll definitely want to give this a read, if you haven't already.
I'd be much more inclined to do RAID-Z or RAID-Z2 if you feel you need RAID.
Otherwise a ZFS pool might be enough for your purposes.
RAID-10 is a lot better, and RAID-6 still has its uses.
Personally, I've stayed well clear of RAID-5 for any critical use for the past two years or so, and I can only hope you don't learn about RAID-5's problems the hard way
Are you INSANE?
8x1TB RAID 5 is not a smart thing to do.
When a disk fails, we're talking an insanely long time to rebuild the array.
You'll definitely want to give this a read, if you haven't already.
I'd be much more inclined to do RAID-Z or RAID-Z2 if you feel you need RAID.
Otherwise a ZFS pool might be enough for your purposes.
RAID-10 is a lot better, and RAID-6 still has its uses.
Personally, I've stayed well clear of RAID-5 for any critical use for the past two years or so, and I can only hope you don't learn about RAID-5's problems the hard way
No I'm not insane. The array has redundant drives that will automatically join the array if drives begin to fail. And everything is backed up via network sync to another site array. I wasn't born yesterday and I'm fully aware of RAID5's short falls. Also I've simulated repairs before on this card and it didn't take very long to rebuild. This card is great.
Also I just wanted to note it supports Rebuilding & Capacity expansion WHILST under 100% I/O load. including both at once. It's a very strong card.
Keep in mind though that the spare will only join if there's a problem, so it's still effectively rebuilding the array.
It's great to hear that you do have a backup plan and have simulated failures.
All too often I see people who think their data is invincible just because they're using RAID-5. Sad, but true
Also, I didn't mean it as bad as it may have sounded, I just wanted to make sure you knew about the problems
Losing 7TB of data would suck a lot. Hell, even being forced to recover 7TB from backups would be annoying!
Obviously, you know your computer environment better than I do -- I just wish RAID-5 wasn't always so casually talked about
Yes, I take a lot of precautions. Some of the ones I do:
- I have the card set to verify the raid every week (This takes hours).
- I have all the disks running at 25-30c each (keep em cool!)
- I have the Drives set to turn off whilst not in use.
- I have the card set to prioritise rebuilding above all other circumstances
- I have a live network backup system to a NAS which keeps a copy of all content on the RAID5 array of my Server.
- I have redundant drives that are outside of the array but ready to be integrated automatically under the circumstance that the array loses 1 or more drives. And due to the rigourous verifying I do I will find unreadable sectors before any array building becomes necessary.
- I have the card set to email me under the condition that the array fails or becomes damaged so that I can personally take action.
- I have Safe Writes set-up which helps to defend the array against corrupted data during the event that there is a Power Cut or a general loss of power to the array.
- Whilst the Array is being rebuilt I can be taking data off the Array at the same time (Due to its Live Rebuilding ability).
So basically I'm well safe with all these precautions I take storage very seriously. I wish more people would too.
- I have the card set to verify the raid every week (This takes hours).
- I have all the disks running at 25-30c each (keep em cool!)
- I have the Drives set to turn off whilst not in use.
- I have the card set to prioritise rebuilding above all other circumstances
- I have a live network backup system to a NAS which keeps a copy of all content on the RAID5 array of my Server.
- I have redundant drives that are outside of the array but ready to be integrated automatically under the circumstance that the array loses 1 or more drives. And due to the rigourous verifying I do I will find unreadable sectors before any array building becomes necessary.
- I have the card set to email me under the condition that the array fails or becomes damaged so that I can personally take action.
- I have Safe Writes set-up which helps to defend the array against corrupted data during the event that there is a Power Cut or a general loss of power to the array.
- Whilst the Array is being rebuilt I can be taking data off the Array at the same time (Due to its Live Rebuilding ability).
So basically I'm well safe with all these precautions I take storage very seriously. I wish more people would too.
Just wondering if you've read Google's great hard disk report. It turns out that keeping the drives cool isn't nearly as important as conventional wisdom dictates, and in fact, too cool will cause problems more often than too hot.
Just thought I'd pass it along if you hadn't seen it.
The article did make mention of consumer drives (1E14 UBE), but I would have hoped it was a little more prominent. Enterprise grade (1E15 UBE) do help, but obviously aren't foolproof.
I also have a hard time getting the UBE issue across to people, as the lower cost of consumer drives is so incredibly tempting. Have you experienced this?
I got an 8core 3.2 system 2 weeks ago, 2 cinema displays, 32Gig ram, 4TB RIAD..
Now All I'm worried about is software for keeping this computer fast, or something that will make it think faster..
What should I get hardware wise to make it faster? I'm still booting from a big ol' 1TB 7200..
Would I get a better benchmark going SSL for my boot? I wonder..
In other news MAYA/C4D cook on this machine by itself. I dont even need to use my render farm for certain things anymore.
ANy thought as to how to improve mac pro speed, or configurations that allow maximum performance?
I'd seen it yep. I don't agree with there findings.
This is correct its not a 'True Hardware Raid' card but those cost twice as much and give around the same performance. This card is amazing for its price point offering unrivalled performance for its price. And the Online Capacity Expansion huge driver support and other factors make it a great buy for someone that wants a better solution then what is built in. But it is Hardware and it is a card and it does offer RAID, ergo me calling it a Hardware RAID card is apt even if it does require a Host operating system and drivers for functionality and parity.
Maybe. If the system is not too busy doing something else, the card is fast. However, performance starts to fall off fast if the system is loaded.
Calling it "hardware RAID" is completely inaccurate. It is software RAID with a card that offers a bunch of features. All of which are affected by system load.
The very people that "need" the features of that card are the ones most likely to be best served by a hardware RAID card.
S-
But they won't call it what it really is... Fake RAID.
The cost is always a great hint though.
In general, people listen -- SMBs and startups might be the toughest to convince.
Being an expensive consultant helps, as does having the guts to demonstrate.
They might have someone relatively junior on staff who thinks they should use RAID-5 for critical storage as it "offers redundancy".
Typically, I ask to have that person, someone responsible for the $$$ and someone with a bit of authority when it comes to Operations.
Get a simple RAID-5 set up with USB sticks or whatever, and show them what happens when you yank a disk.
Simplify everything.
Cut everything down to understandable numbers and walk them through the maths. If you've calculated a 20% chance of failure or 25% doesn't matter -- just say "there's a one in five/whatever" chance that a second drive will fail during rebuild.
"Do you want this to be that one bad time?"
No matter what they say (as if the disks care about what the people in the room want!), yank a second drive and show them the wonderfully inoperable disk array.
Talking about the importance of the data helps a lot, as does giving them a bit of an ego boost ("What about when you're a 500 person company? RAID-5 will hardly cut it -- it'll be overwhelmed!).
Everything so far goes towards building trust (it's not included with the consultant title, sadly). The goal is to have them ask how you'd set things up and not step on anyone's feet if you want to be able to bill more hours in the future.
If, after explaining and demonstrating the shortcomings of a big RAID-5, they still won't do as you say, you help them do what they want to do.
You also make sure they can get ahold of you when their data goes down the drain, so you can bill them for data recovery -- and that time they WILL listen to you
In general, people listen -- SMBs and startups might be the toughest to convince.
Being an expensive consultant helps, as does having the guts to demonstrate.
They might have someone relatively junior on staff who thinks they should use RAID-5 for critical storage as it "offers redundancy".
Typically, I ask to have that person, someone responsible for the $$$ and someone with a bit of authority when it comes to Operations.
Get a simple RAID-5 set up with USB sticks or whatever, and show them what happens when you yank a disk.
Simplify everything.
Cut everything down to understandable numbers and walk them through the maths. If you've calculated a 20% chance of failure or 25% doesn't matter -- just say "there's a one in five/whatever" chance that a second drive will fail during rebuild.
"Do you want this to be that one bad time?"
No matter what they say (as if the disks care about what the people in the room want!), yank a second drive and show them the wonderfully inoperable disk array.
Talking about the importance of the data helps a lot, as does giving them a bit of an ego boost ("What about when you're a 500 person company? RAID-5 will hardly cut it -- it'll be overwhelmed!).
Everything so far goes towards building trust (it's not included with the consultant title, sadly). The goal is to have them ask how you'd set things up and not step on anyone's feet if you want to be able to bill more hours in the future.
If, after explaining and demonstrating the shortcomings of a big RAID-5, they still won't do as you say, you help them do what they want to do.
You also make sure they can get ahold of you when their data goes down the drain, so you can bill them for data recovery -- and that time they WILL listen to you
I was thinking in terms of the forum. Sorry, I should have specified.
I've run into difficulty when dealing in non-physical contact situations (email and phone), so a demonstration is not possible.
Demonstrations are an easy way to get the point across though.
I was thinking in terms of the forum. Sorry, I should have specified.
I've run into difficulty when dealing in non-physical contact situations (email and phone), so a demonstration is not possible.
Demonstrations are an easy way to get the point across though.
Ah!
Forums are very, very tricky -- mainly because everyone's an armchair expert.
People online don't care about what others have to say -- they'll counter everything with an anecdote of their own.
They also don't care about your experience or education, nor what you do for a living, unless you're Chuck Norris.
People have this inherent fear of being proven wrong, so a lot of the time, shoving articles in their face won't help, but rather result in an analogy.
It's kind of funny how stubborn people can be.
In general, I'll give people tips and ideas, I'll prove things scientifically if possible -- but I mainly do it for my own entertainment.
After all, if I don't benefit from sharing my experiences, why should I share them at all?
At the end of the day, it means that I've entertained myself for a bit, and someone else might or might not have found something useful in all my ramblings.
If they have, that's great.
If they don't want to listen to me, that's their problem, and I take a deep rooted satisfaction in knowing that when they find out I'm right, they'll find out the hard way.
Yes, I'm an ass like that
I've always been an iMac man but have decided to invest into the Mac Pro world. I nearly bought one recently until I read this website
Glad i did otherwise i would have bought an old one.
My main concern is going to be the screen. 20" is too small and 30" is too big. Please bring a 24" LED screen out with the new Mac Pro. Thats my dream!!
Glad i did otherwise i would have bought an old one.
My main concern is going to be the screen. 20" is too small and 30" is too big. Please bring a 24" LED screen out with the new Mac Pro. Thats my dream!!
I've always been an iMac man but have decided to invest into the Mac Pro world. I nearly bought one recently until I read this website
Glad i did otherwise i would have bought an old one.
My main concern is going to be the screen. 20" is too small and 30" is too big. Please bring a 24" LED screen out with the new Mac Pro. Thats my dream!!
There already is a 24" LED screen for the Mac Pro. Probability theory says that the next Mac Pro will have dual Mini DisplayPort out on its graphics cards, so you'll be able to buy the Apple LED Cinema Display and plug it in.
Simple as that.
Oh, and logic states that the 30" LED Cinema Display will come out simultaneously with the new Mac Pro. The 20" might be discontinued entirely.
Aargh! The only issue I have with that is the useless power cable coming out of the back of the display, and the lack of FW400.
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