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The 2012 MLB Season Thread
- Thread starter MacNut
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Game 6 of the 1985 World Series at Busch Stadium. Don Denkinger, the first base ump, makes a huge blown call, calling a Royals runner safe when he was out by a mile. Possibly affected the outcome of the game. Fans were not throwing **** onto the field.
The fans were completely out of line and they're lucky they didn't force the Braves to forfeit. I thought we were close to seeing a situation we haven't seen since Disco Demolition Night and 10 Cent Beer Night.
Not saints by far.... But I don't think you'd have the same response @ Busch Stadium.
Totally different situation and you know it.
We will never know but I think it would have been similar. Not just at Busch Stadium but at a number of stadiums.
It would be relatively similar at any sports stadium with 50,000 fans who have paid good money and are frustrated with the way the night's gone.
It only takes a few, and then the mob mentality kicks in.
It only takes a few, and then the mob mentality kicks in.
Well if you interpret the rule as it was written, yes I can understand why it wasn't overturned. That said, I don't agree with it at all.
An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule. When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare “Infield Fly” for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the baselines, the umpire shall declare “Infield Fly, if Fair.” The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul. If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly.
Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder—not by some arbitrary limitation such as the grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire’s judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire’s judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately.
When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05 (L). The infield fly rule takes precedence
Hey, you're preaching to the choir.
If you look at the first section, it's not like it would have been an amazing play by the infielder if he had made it - that's what I'm talking about.
Again, I think it was an awful call - it should have been called earlier at the very least. It was bad all the way around.
While I'll leave the ordinary effort up for debate, looks like Holbrook was waiting to make the call till he knew whether or not the infielder (Kozma) could make the play. He put his hand in the air right when Kozma seemed to be planted/showing signs he had the catch. In that light the Ump immediately declared infield fly when it seemed it was apparent. Or in other words, if Kozma couldn't get to the ball it would have been just your everyday vanilla pop fly....and everything would have likely been chalked up to a fielding error.
I mean in light of how the rule is written it seems everything was legit.... But that rule unfairly benefitted the Cards in this case. Something for Bud's special commission to address in the off season.
I'd love to hear Holbrooks perspective; too bad we will likely never hear while it's still relevant.
I knew the Braves would blow it. They just never seemed for real to me. I hate the cards so much
I disagree. Holbrooks raised his hand right as Kozma came to a halt from a sprint. He wasn't at all showing signs that he had the ball. Anyway...it doesn't matter. It's over with...
He didn't stop running because he didn't have the ball he would have caught that but he peeled off for some unknown reason. Not sure if he thought Matt called it or not. Again, not a fan of how the rule was used, but seems to be within the scope of what was written.
Well I'm sure one thing we can agree on for sure.... That rule can be tightened up. As well intended as it might be, I'm not sure a Trick double/triple play effort is even feasibly possible from where Kozma had to run. and the distance Kozma had to cover is questionable as to whether or not it's a ordinary effort. Too much room in there for personal judgement and error.
The other thing is that it's unfortunate that the game seemingly came down to that play....in reality the game should have never come to that call; the braves didn't help themselves on that front with their fielding errors.
MLB Network just showed a play from a Cubs game earlier in the season at Wrigley where the IFR was called and Starlin Castro was in pretty much the exact same spot as Kozma was. So this is not unprecedented.
Here are the 3 points up for discussion:
Distance: The ball dropped in the outfield, not the infield. The rule states nothing about how far the ball travels, just that the infielder is attempting to catch it. If the infielder runs out to the warning track to catch it, IFR can still be called.
Timing: The umpire did not call IFR until late. IFR cannot be called the second the ball leaves the bat. The umpire has to wait until it reaches its apex and begins to drop, and he sees that the infielder is under it and can make the play with reasonable effort. IFR wasn't called until the ball started coming back down, which is the correct time to call it.
Ordinary effort: The infielder has to be able to catch it with ordinary effort. This one was certainly debatable. It's definitely hard to tell, it certainly looked like an ordinary popup, but I don't know what wind conditions and all that were at the time. However, this one was a judgement call, and games cannot be put under protest under judgement calls, so denying the Braves' protest was the correct move. Teams can only protest if the issue is with the application of the rules, such as if IFR was called with only a runner on first.
Ultimately, the Braves had their chances and missed them. 3 errors, 12 runners left on base. The fielders have to make the plays and the offense has to hit. Playoff caliber teams need to play well enough that one bad call isn't going to screw them.
Here are the 3 points up for discussion:
Distance: The ball dropped in the outfield, not the infield. The rule states nothing about how far the ball travels, just that the infielder is attempting to catch it. If the infielder runs out to the warning track to catch it, IFR can still be called.
Timing: The umpire did not call IFR until late. IFR cannot be called the second the ball leaves the bat. The umpire has to wait until it reaches its apex and begins to drop, and he sees that the infielder is under it and can make the play with reasonable effort. IFR wasn't called until the ball started coming back down, which is the correct time to call it.
Ordinary effort: The infielder has to be able to catch it with ordinary effort. This one was certainly debatable. It's definitely hard to tell, it certainly looked like an ordinary popup, but I don't know what wind conditions and all that were at the time. However, this one was a judgement call, and games cannot be put under protest under judgement calls, so denying the Braves' protest was the correct move. Teams can only protest if the issue is with the application of the rules, such as if IFR was called with only a runner on first.
Ultimately, the Braves had their chances and missed them. 3 errors, 12 runners left on base. The fielders have to make the plays and the offense has to hit. Playoff caliber teams need to play well enough that one bad call isn't going to screw them.
Congrats Orioles. Too bad you didn't take the division, I would have loved to watch the Yankees in a one gamer wild card game.
Certainly didn't want Texas to lose their division to A's......
Certainly didn't want Texas to lose their division to A's......
As I said above, the longest before tonight was 178 feet.
Tonight was 225 feet.
26.4% longer
Whatever. Hard to estimate distances on TV. But the point still stands. IFR is still valid if the infielder is on the warning track.
I don't think that's one of the tests of the rule, although the stated intent is to prevent the fielding team to take advantage of pop fly for a double or even triple play.
As YG pointed out, it seems all of the other tests of the rule were satisfied.... The one that iphou could drive a Mac truck through is whether or not Kozma's effort was ordinary. Ordinary should spcertainly be better qualified by next season.
NY in a one gamer would have been epic.
As for the Rangers, they were consistently the scariest team in MLB all year (and possibly the two years before that) and being a Giants fan first, then A's, I am so glad that the Arlington baseball dynasty has an early vacation this year!!
The other scary team, imho, the Yankees, are ready to bring it up a notch.
You only have to worry about the Yankees if they face the Giants in the WS. You should first worry about the Nats.
