I can't believe I actually took the time to read this thread. Six pages of what seems like an all-out attack on the OP simply for having an *opinion.* It's one thing to disagree, but s**t I'm certainly not gonna come up in here name-calling and fingerpopping. At this point, we're just kicking the man when he's down.
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The MBP brand has been tarnished.
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Pretty much, im surprised this hasnt been locked. It basically got useless after like the first 3 or 4 posts. Time for someone to report
Let's bring the thread back on track.
The problem is Apple blending their laptop line into one big blob without significant differentiation between price points. There are two parts to this differentiation: Looks and specs. Apple is taking care of neither.
The highest end MBP isn't pro without looking and feeling different than the entry level "Pro". This means using better materials and a better, more intricate design.
To those who say that "a Macbook Pro can't be used in a professional environment", you are right. And that is exactly my point. Not even the highest end Macbook Pro is up to the task, and it should be! I want to be able to get a Quadro card for SolidWorks. I don't want Apple cutting costs on the keyboard, the classic keyboard had much better tactile feedback. Someone explain to me why I can't get at least a 1680x1050 high quality matte display on a 15" "Pro" notebook. I should get built-in eSata in addition to my Firewire ports. Why the reduction to a single FireWire port? I have two on my Classic MBP! Apple cutting costs again to make the MBP more affordable and make the 13" pseudo-MBP fit in at the expense of the highest end models.
Now, I was thinking that Apple could benefit from something akin to what Alpina is to BMW, at least in the look and feel / user experience department as I don't think it would be feasible for the logic board to be modded. That would take care of catering to the luxury segment, which obviously exists.
The problem is Apple blending their laptop line into one big blob without significant differentiation between price points. There are two parts to this differentiation: Looks and specs. Apple is taking care of neither.
The highest end MBP isn't pro without looking and feeling different than the entry level "Pro". This means using better materials and a better, more intricate design.
To those who say that "a Macbook Pro can't be used in a professional environment", you are right. And that is exactly my point. Not even the highest end Macbook Pro is up to the task, and it should be! I want to be able to get a Quadro card for SolidWorks. I don't want Apple cutting costs on the keyboard, the classic keyboard had much better tactile feedback. Someone explain to me why I can't get at least a 1680x1050 high quality matte display on a 15" "Pro" notebook. I should get built-in eSata in addition to my Firewire ports. Why the reduction to a single FireWire port? I have two on my Classic MBP! Apple cutting costs again to make the MBP more affordable and make the 13" pseudo-MBP fit in at the expense of the highest end models.
Now, I was thinking that Apple could benefit from something akin to what Alpina is to BMW, at least in the look and feel / user experience department as I don't think it would be feasible for the logic board to be modded. That would take care of catering to the luxury segment, which obviously exists.
you want better luxury from a computer? go PC and get a voodoo or something...fact of the matter is...the customization options for apple isn't really very different from the other lower end models except for the innards. you get the same chassis as with the lowest price MBP but with components that will go obsolete just as fast as the best computer you can get out there. why? it is a manufacturing decision on apple to gain more support from the masses, most of which are made of PC users...it is a profit decision, plain and simple. if you feel disenchanted because the lack of customization doesn't give you an "elite" head-up on others...well, you're S.O.L, amigo, so suck up what the rest of us "commoners" have and happily use on a daily basis.
why would apple gain from an alpina-like division? so it can put off more potential customers who realize that plunking down 3K for a computer that can't even be upgraded is ret@rded? not a good business model if you want to aggressively expand and it doesn't take an MBA from wharton to know this. why do you think apple is comin' out with more affordable models? its all about appeal...
So it's not about having a good computer, it's about exclusivity? Sigh... I hate to shatter your illusion, but you were never special -- owning this or that computer never made anyone royalty -- and exclusivity was never the essence of the MBP brand. Forking out $3000 may be out of reach for trailer trash, but it's feasible for pretty much everyone else, it's just that pretty much everyone else isn't stupid enough to spend that kind of money on technology that will be antique by the time you leave the store.
If there's not a high-brow, "I got the good one", "I'm a serious Mac guy, not just a casual user" separation - via the PRO moniker - of the casual mac user and hardcore mac guys, then the name is totally trashed. It doesn't mean anything if it's not EXCLUSIVE. I don't want the kids who just go get a macbook to have the RIGHT to have the "pro" name. They're just typically "I have a mac" light users....not hardcore enthusiasts like us. It's like your favorite band becoming the band everyone likes. No exclusivity? NO CARE. The "Pro" name has to have exclusivity, telling everyone "I spent a lot for the BEST...not just a normal Mac like soccer moms and teenagers...I'm hardcore".
Oh wait....all of that text above is absolute crap and doesn't matter whatsoever.
Oh wait....all of that text above is absolute crap and doesn't matter whatsoever.
realize that everything is not maintaining allusions, buy the high end 15" or the 17" inch pro is still or buying to your needs is what Apple products are about, they are providing a superior product, and while the point is valid in that they have made all their macbook's "pro", some are more pro than other's, the 15" and 17" will always have better screens, and a little bit extra power, but with snow leopard coming up having a dedicated graphics card will truly make a laptop pro
That's what I'm thinking too. I don't know if the white MacBook will stay or become a "netbook." But your post makes a lot of sense and I too believe there is a deeper reason for the name change.
Completely agreed. The MacBook Pro isn't anywhere near "pro" as the Mac Pro.
Been there, done that... and why not? It's practically a MacBook Pro 24" with a table stand in place of keyboard and battery. The fact that the name is inherited from an entry-level plastic blob introduced in the late 90's is incidental. Sure, I could trade in the iMac for an MBP and the 24" LED screen... yay, I'm so pro now that I have exactly the same product in two separate units.
Wow so not only are Apple's customers rabid fans they seem to be cannibalistic in nature when one of their own kind dare to question the almighty Apple?
I think to better sum it up like this - In the past the Macbook Pro moniker meant you got:
1. Dedicated Video Card
2. Expansion (2x FW, Card slot etc)
3. CTO options
Now those three items went away for 80% of the models they offer and that is unsettling for people who actually use those features. If you only have one FW port and you are importing HDV video you can't have a FW800 external hooked up to dump the footage to. Or have an ESATA card in your Express slot to dump it to. These are big deals to people who use them on a daily basis for video/photography. (The people who buy them for these now dead features)
First Apple said goodbye to matte screens on all but the 17in model trying to force you to upgrade. Now they limit the FW ports and take away all expansion really forcing you to upgrade to the 17in model. If Apple really wants to shoo away the professional market then just come out and say it already.
I think to better sum it up like this - In the past the Macbook Pro moniker meant you got:
1. Dedicated Video Card
2. Expansion (2x FW, Card slot etc)
3. CTO options
Now those three items went away for 80% of the models they offer and that is unsettling for people who actually use those features. If you only have one FW port and you are importing HDV video you can't have a FW800 external hooked up to dump the footage to. Or have an ESATA card in your Express slot to dump it to. These are big deals to people who use them on a daily basis for video/photography. (The people who buy them for these now dead features)
First Apple said goodbye to matte screens on all but the 17in model trying to force you to upgrade. Now they limit the FW ports and take away all expansion really forcing you to upgrade to the 17in model. If Apple really wants to shoo away the professional market then just come out and say it already.
How would an Alpina-like division take away from customers? It wouldn't, because the consumer offerings would stay the same. This is in addition to not instead of. Apple has the cash to run both business models, to aggressively expand with affordable notebooks and to cover the niche of very high performance notebooks, even if it's just so Apple can say "we make the best of the best". And yes, it can make money in both.
And yes, it is a down market in general and it's great that Apple offers affordable Macs. What isn't great is that Apple isn't paying enough attention to those willing to shell out the most cash on a single purchase. It's possible to do both.
I wonder how Mac Pro users would feel if Apple took away one Firewire port, one ethernet port, a couple of PCI slots, and a few drive bays from the highest end Mac Pro in order to make the entry level Mac Pro more affordable and because Apple thinks that "only a very small percentage of users use them".
Bite your tongue! (they are listening...)
I just got a new MP quad and I've half regretted it since they crippled it with the insane lack of of ram slots (Nehalem = 6/12 slots Apple) and now if you want a portable professional machine the only choice is the 17in with special 'Anti-glare' coating / expansion + Applecare = $3,000. Ouch.
1.) Why on earth is a dedicated video card pro? In the old days with lame integrated graphics chips this was a difference. Now the 9400M handles just about everything fine with the exception of high end games. So you need can only be "pro" if you have a game machine? Silly requirement.
2.) Expansion is still there via firewire and USB. Why is a card slot pro? If it was an esata port I think you would have a better argument. The biggest use I had for the expresscard slot was 3G network cards. But all these cards are moving to USB, it's hard to find a new expresscard for this.
3.) CTO options, are you serious? Look at the Apple store online, more CTO options then there have ever been.
You guys are silly. All I see is complaints about specs. It's only not pro if it prevents you from doing something. I haven't seen one example of this yet.
Some people are ridiculous thinking one should suck it up and be happy with Apple's current offerings.
I'm not asking Apple to give me anything for free. I only want Apple to take my cash in exchange for a really kickass notebook. I'm giving them an opportunity to make a high margin sale and they won't take it!
Should I say "C'mon Apple, I really want to give you my money, so would you please take my money?"
Turning away loyal customers with cash-in-hand is unwise in any rational business model.
I'm not asking Apple to give me anything for free. I only want Apple to take my cash in exchange for a really kickass notebook. I'm giving them an opportunity to make a high margin sale and they won't take it!
Should I say "C'mon Apple, I really want to give you my money, so would you please take my money?"
Turning away loyal customers with cash-in-hand is unwise in any rational business model.
I think the issue is, you gave off the impression that you wanted to elevate your status by buying the high end macbook pro, and only people who bought the high end macbook pro should have such status. That's where you ran into problems, does that even compute? Do you understand why that would irk people? Nobody is better than anybody else, we're all the same and deserve the same opportunities. I refuse to acknowledge people for what they have or don't have, you judge people by their character, and yours is questionable. What's with the bourgeois attitude?
You obviously don't know what you are talking about nor use Photoshop CS4, Aperture, FC, Motion because they all make use of your GPU power to leave your CPU open to handle more tasks. Integrated chips are nowhere near a dedicated chip.
Multi-card reader for actual Pros who use CF cards? Esata ports? Until Nikon/Canon convert their pro bodies to SD it is useless.
Right except now you have no expansion slot to you know.. expand?
You have to understand something before you can find an example of it. Try hooking up your HDV FW camera to the MBP while having another FW800/ESATA external drive to dump footage too.. oh wait you can't.
Of course a dedicated GPU will be faster. The point is the 9400M is fast enough that it can do the tasks just slower. Integrated chips before couldn't do it all. You can still have higher and lower end machines, but requiring a dedicated GPU to be "Pro" is an artificial restriction.
Multi-card readers work fine on firewire and USB. I use them. Is there a point? You want the multi-card reader built-in? That makes it "Pro"? It was never built-in before.
I can hookup to FW800 right now. Is there a point? I need two FW800 ports to be "Pro"? What expansion slot is needed for "Pro"? I can find lots of things you can't fit in an expresscard 34 slot.
Sorry, don't think you've proved much here. And really the point of this thread is trying to prove the laptops have "lost" something. Still waiting for a rational argument versus spec whining.
Obviously you have made your case that, like many posters here, you have your eyes closed, fingers in ears singing LALALALA whenever anyone has anything negative to say about Apple's products.
Pro's want multiple FW800 for input/output while editing. Pros want to use dedicated Express cards for software that requires it and have the choice to swap out devices rather than have 10 things dangling by USB outside of the machine and Pros USE THE EXTRA POWER OF DEDICATED CHIPS that you see as unnecessary.
Just because YOU never utilized those things you think no one does so everyone is an idiot who thinks otherwise. I'm glad there are watered-down products that you are happy with but now a chunk of their user base was left out to pasture yet again. THAT is what this thread is about.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the OP on this ... don't downgrade the MBP line to the consumer level and still call it "pro." Have a line of consumer products at around $1200 (MB), and a "pro" line (MBP) and spec it as such. Those of us willing to pay over $3000 for the "pro" are expecting just THAT.
Exactly. Why not just divide the line up?
1. 13in / integrated gfx / 2GB / SD - $1199
2. 13in / dedicated / 4GB / SD - $1499
3. 15in / integrated gfx / 4GB / SD - $1699
4. 15in / Dedicated / 4GB / EX slot - $1999
5. 17in / Dedicatd /4GB / 2x FW / EX slot -$2599