Thunderbolt 3 Ports on Right Side of 13-Inch MacBook Pro Have Reduced PCI Express Bandwidth

[mixel]

The price and spec of the second version of the touch bar MBP are going to make these first ones seem ridiculous I'm expecting. I really like the design but it seems a bit botched together and lacking in key areas.

Reminds me of the iPad 3, I bet we get a spec bump/price drop faster than usual. Slower ports on the right hardly seems a big deal but it does seem dumb.

 

[Mac32]

The price of the new MacBook Pro line is outrageous, and it's even worse here in Europe. Now we hear that Apple has cut corners with the ports. Disappointing!

 

[ZMacintosh]

They can, but that would require certain changes to the overall design that Apple doesn't want to do. For instance, I'd bet that it has to be larger for the higher thermals, use a 2nd fan and larger heat sync, and a larger battery to maintain the same duration on a single charge.

My anecdotal experience with users of the 13" MBP are those that aren't crunching a lot of data. I don't know anyone who's using Adobe, Xcode, Final Cut Pro, etc. on a 13" Mac; and most of them would prefer to have a 17" MBP. Hell, the weight and volume is down low enough that I'd finally be in the market for a 17" MBP.

Unfortunately the number of users to fit these "fringe" needs are deemed too low for Apple. We don't have to like it, but we do have to accept it.

not really any different than the 15" they could totally pull it off if they can pack it into an iMac and 15" pro

 

[manu chao]

You don't need a "dongle" to connect to an iPhone 7 or iPad Pro. First off, those devices connect wirelessly now. Second, there are USB-C to Lightning cables if you want a faster connection.

Funnily, a USB-A to Lightning cable is not seen as an adaptor but a USB-A to USB-C contraption is. I have seven different 'USB cables' that all start with USB-A (on the other end they have 1:30-pin, 2:Lightning, 3:USB-B, 4:USB-mini, 5:USB-micro, 6:USB-Panasonic, 7:USB-Sony). Most adaptors are nothing but very short cables (a couple have electronics in them). I could argue that even with universal USB-A on my computer I still need to own seven different 'adaptors' to connect all my USB devices to that port.

 

[OnTheFly]

You get what you pay for.

You used to get what you pay for. Now you get, well a dash of inconvenience, and completely on-par performance for now $200 more. #sadday

 

[otternonsense]

And soon I'll be holding my brilliant new MBP that will speed up my work performance to a point that it'll pay for itself 10-20x over per annum. Good luck to you.

10-20x? Was your previous computer a G4 powerbook? Other than the super fast read/write speeds, the specs are largely unchanged from the last gen.

 

[rendyr]

Is this the limitation on the Intel CPUs or just limitation enforced by Apple?

And how much is the decrease on the PCI-e speeds? Since most people don't even need full speed PCI-e to begin with.

 

[Dstev341]

The price of the new MacBook Pro line is outrageous, and is even worse here in Europe. Now we here that Apple has cut corners with the ports. Disappointing!

How is it outrageous? The Air was 2k for the base model and over 3k for the top tier model....The first retina MBPs were actually about the same price as these new ones are.....

 

[Mac 128]

Funnily, a USB-A to Lightning cable is not seen as an adaptor but a USB-A to USB-C contraption is. I have seven different 'USB cables' that all start with USB-A (on the other end they have 1:30-pin, 2:Lightning, 3:USB-B, 4:USB-mini, 5:USB-micro, 6:USB-Panasonic, 7:USB-Sony). Most adaptors are nothing but very short cables (a couple have electronics in them). I could argue that even with universal USB-A on my computer I still need to own seven different 'adaptors' to connect all my USB devices to that port.

You forgot USB 3 and micro-USB 3.

I have every one of these "standard" cables on my desk right now:

And this without even getting into the proprietary stuff.

 

[Applebot1]

I think with the underwhelming performance considering the price, hopefully users vote with their wallets and we will see Apple release revised laptops next year....be courageous Apple

 

[tkatz]

Yes, they made a decision to partner with AMD and that has held them back.

Waiting for Kaby Lake would have pushed the release back at least a quarter, and likely longer. Apple hasn't released the newest Intel chips on the bleeding edge for quite a while now, and I'm guessing that last year's issues with Intel graphics drivers on Skylake chips (remember the crashing issues on the original Surface Book?) will make them wary. Processor upgrades have been minor as of late, so being a few months late to the processor party doesn't hurt them as much.

Yep I understand the reason for going with the latest skylake for now. No doubt there will be an update revision a few months after the equivalent/new Kaby Lake cpus are available. I would still like nVidia graphics though, and an option for physical keys instead of the touchbar (on the 15").

 

[ateslik]

they do get ancillary revenue from adapters but it's relatively small.

The highest profit margins in the computer industry come from cables.

I used to work for a national computer retailer. They didn't care what computer you sold the customer, but you BETTER have got them to buy that printer cable! The margin on the computer was .5%. The cable margin was 20%. I suspect that's still the case.

 

[Applebot1]

That keynote must have been one of the worse I've seen. Apple are lost and need new inspiration.

 

[otternonsense]

How is it outrageous? The Air was 2k for the base model and over 3k for the top tier model....The first retina MBPs were actually about the same price as these new ones are.....

No they were not. A fully maxed out 15" MacBook Pro would cost me no more than €3500 3-4 years ago. Now that would be €4999, excluding Apple Care and the inevitable Dongletax. If you cannot perceive the magnitude of that price increase and still have resort to irrelevant examples, I got a white Apple logo sticker for you.

 

[manu chao]

The general point is that competing products are often at similar price points. Microsoft now competes in the premium hardware segment and they ask for similar prices. The Surface Book uses the 15W Kaby Lake chips vs. the 28W and 45W Skylake chips that the Touch Bar MacBook Pros use. Granted, it has tablet functionality but that's a difference in design philosophy more than anything else.

Here it says the Surface Book is using 6th gen Intel Core processors, aka Skylake:

 

[KPOM]

Is this the limitation on the Intel CPUs or just limitation enforced by Apple?

And how much is the decrease on the PCI-e speeds? Since most people don't even need full speed PCI-e to begin with.

There's a detailed post a few pages back. It's an Intel limitation. There aren't enough PCIe lanes to supply all 4 ports with enough bandwidth. Apple hasn't said, but based on speculation that the left ports each get 2 PCIe lanes and the right ports get 1, then likely the right ports will still get Thunderbolt 2 speeds (20Gbps), which is more than enough for portable hard drives, etc. External GPUs would be better plugged into the left ports.

 

[manu chao]

You forgot USB 3 and micro-USB 3.

I have every one of these "standard" cables on my desk right now:

And this without even getting into the proprietary stuff.

You are right, I do have a USB 3 cable as well (but no USB 3 micro yet).

 

[Dstev341]

A fully maxed out 15" MacBook Pro would cost me no more than €3500 2 years ago. Now that would be €4999, excluding Apple Care and the inevitable Dongletax. If you cannot perceive the magnitude of that price increase and still have resort to irrelevant historical examples, I got a white Apple logo sticker for you.

You used an example from two years ago and somehow my response was historical?....My point is that these price points seem to go in tandem with "revisions." I am not saying they're worth what they're asking.....but going off past releases, this is nothing new.

 

[lysingur]

How is it outrageous? The Air was 2k for the base model and over 3k for the top tier model....The first retina MBPs were actually about the same price as these new ones are.....

The first Retina MBP was considered a huge leap from the previous model though and the Retina screen alone justified the price at the time. This is not to mention the entry level MBP 2016 saw a $200 increase compared to 2012.

 

[KPOM]

No they were not. A fully maxed out 15" MacBook Pro would cost me no more than €3500 3-4 years ago. Now that would be €4999, excluding Apple Care and the inevitable Dongletax. If you cannot perceive the magnitude of that price increase and still have resort to irrelevant historical examples, I got a white Apple logo sticker for you.

Apple has maintained premium pricing on upgrades (e.g. $200 for bumping up to the next memory or storage tiers), which is a valid complaint, but the performance differences are minimal these days and I usually don't recommend CPU upgrades.

Part of the difference is foreign exchange. The euro and pound were both much stronger against the dollar in the mid-2000s than they are now.

 

[otternonsense]

You used an example from two years ago and somehow my response was historical?....My point is that these price points seem to go in tandem with "revisions." I am not saying they're worth what they're asking.....but going off past releases, this is nothing new.

What are you on? You're the one who said "The first retina MBPs were actually about the same price as these new ones are....." Well, I've had one of these and they were not. And got me another last year courtesy of my employer, but I haven't stopped peeking at the Apple Store prices in the meantime.

Even considering inflation and all, these MBPs were MUCH cheaper.

 

[Dstev341]

The first Retina MBP was considered a huge leap from the previous model though and the Retina screen along justified the price at the time. This is not to mention the entry level MBP 2016 saw a $200 increase compared to 2012.

I understand that... To Apple, and others, the "Touchbar" is the reason for the price hike. Not saying I agree, just a fact.

 

[KPOM]

The highest profit margins in the computer industry come from cables.

I used to work for a national computer retailer. They didn't care what computer you sold the customer, but you BETTER have got them to buy that printer cable! The margin on the computer was .5%. The cable margin was 20%. I suspect that's still the case.

Yes, the highest margins are on the accessories, but Apple doesn't operate like those national computer retailers did. They make healthy margins on the Macs, particularly those with upgraded storage and memory.

 

[brianvictor7]

It's not just the price though. They are on a mission to change the world with their stupid wireless headphones, their property ports, ridiculous watches, they are continually removing functionality, USB, SD card slots, MagSafe, I am a photographer - no camera on earth uses Thunderbolt. Things that work fine they like to break - it's like they hold an annual taskforce meeting to decide what is working so they can mess it up. They fill new machines with junk like an Emoji bar that I have no need, or wish for when a mouse and trackpad works perfectly well and is more efficient and simple. Next they will be removing those. The processor only gets a mild bump, it was like an after thought! the 16GB of RAM ceiling is woeful! I have nothing but problems with Apple products now. I bought a new keyboard last week and two keys have broken and fallen out. My Retina MBP has Image Retention, screen coating problems, my iPhones have all had issues, chipgate, bendgate, it's an endless list of constant problems to the point I have not upgraded my OS since Yosemite because every time I have done it stops things working. They are unreliable, over pried, pretty, junk now. They used to just work and were impeccable. My last decent machine from them was the 2010 Mac Pro. For 15 years I have been happily buying like it was the best thing ever. Add another 5 years to that where it has been a slow and steady decline to what it is today, a train wreck of a company run by well funded monkeys. 20 years as a customer and I'm turning away and that MS Surface Studio is looking VERY enticing to me.

I can understand why you'd be frustrated if both your hardware and software have kept breaking. I experienced that frustration with the dumbing down of iWork and the scratches my MBPR has from its keys.

It took me a while to accept that Apple does not always excel at everything it does. It is also not afraid of pushing its vision. If we disagree with it or feel they are failing too often for the money they charge, then we have options. Microsoft is officially cool again. Google is up and coming.

I would, however, suggest looking at what is right about their products. I am not a photographer and have never once used the SD slot. Most MBP users don't, so Apple cut it. That, regrettably, makes sense when a (relatively) inexpensive dongle will do.

The Touchbar is far more than emojis. It keeps a potentially useful tool where my hands are. And it keeps my fingerprints off my shiny screen.

But none of this is any good if you can't afford it and Apple is clearly gouging its fan base here. I refuse to participate in that. I cannot see myself ever buying a $1799 notebook.

 

[KPOM]

I understand that... To Apple, and others, the "Touchbar" is the reason for the price hike. Not saying I agree, just a fact.

I think he is comparing the $1499 model without the Touch Bar to the $1299 model before. However, they have also bumped up storage to 256GB. That said, the fact that they are keeping the $1299 model around for the time being leads me to believe they will quietly drop the price of the base model to $1299 in next year's update and drop the 2015 model.