Tiger GM Leaked?

[SoGood]

etc. etc.

Any way you choose to justify pirating, it is not right. Yes, it is a judgment call, but the following is not... any way you dress it up, it is still theft.

Moreover, by extension your logic would justify slavery when it too was a worldwide "fact of life". Does that make it right?

The points you do bring up are interesting though. They definitely show that there is no simple solution to this theft.

As in the start of my post, I asked all to leave the legal issues aside. I certainly wasn't trying to justify theft nor piracy. What I tried to do was to see the various angles outside of those strict legal boundaries. The fact that I concluded that piracy will always be around does not in any way indicate my preference for them. It's just a pragmatic view on a difficult matter. Putting slavery aside, which is pretty clear cut for most. This present issue is probably more akin to prostitution. It's black and white on ethics and legal grounds, but next to impossible to eradicate in a society.

 

[evands]

This present issue is probably more akin to prostitution. It's black and white on ethics and legal grounds, but next to impossible to eradicate in a society.

Prostitution is black and white on ethics and legal grounds? Far from it! Which of course just goes to show that there is very little which is actually black and white...

 

[Voiteur]

wow

seems like people on here are a tad obsessed with capitalism- all this "respecting other peoples property" jargon. Sounds like propaganda made up to protect the wealthy (Jobs and the rest) from any other POV. Face the facts- Apple is a huge corporation and like all other huge corporations, they are oppressing people around the globe. A little "blowback" as the Bush administration puts it, is to be expected. Stealing software is a joke, not a crime. How many employees of software companies slept on the street last year anyway? Do they eat out of garbage cans? Please, find someplace real to place your concerns. Being worried about the wealth of billionaires is a waste of your life.

 

[carbonmotion]

Wow, that was incredibly short sighted of him. That is why these third world countries are so poor - they don't concentrate on the fundamentals. Raising children to have respect for other people's property is far, far more important than having the latest textbook.

. . .

WOW. you are wrong on so many levels its amazing.
people in third world countries pirate because they are poor. be it in thailand or malaysia or pakistan, they steal intellectual property because they view it as a relatively victimless crime. When you're poor and starving, stealing becauses more and more attractive. just be grateful that this is relatively harmless compared to other things that they could be doing if their relatively benign outlet was not available.

 

[quackattack]

Really guys, I don' think you are going to change anyone's mind. This is an argument that could go around in circles FOREVER.

but it's wrong..... but it's free ....... but it's illegal ........ but I can't afford to pay ..... etc etc.

I'm sorry but threads like this start to sound like a broken record to me after a while. Oh well, I suppose there is nothing wrong with a little heated debate every now and then.

 

[RonJ83]

its very ignorant to say "im gonna steal this cause i cant afford it" its less than $200 dollars, and most of us can use student discount which makes it less than 80 dollars. if you cant afford it then you shouldnt use it, i dont care if you do have the hardware, if you cant afford something new, stick with the old. i could understand if its bread or something to keep you alive but this is just software, cant afford it dont use it, if you WILL die for not having it get a job, or just dig yourself a hole. dont like my $0.02 well then .... ...

 

[ZenNerd]

It's definitely out there. I got curious to see how easy it would be to find and found it on the second torrent site I checked and it's got hundreds of seeds and thousands of peers. So it's going to be all over in very short order. I'll wait though since I'm a new switcher and still just getting used to OSX.

 

[phd]

seems like people on here are a tad obsessed with capitalism- all this "respecting other peoples property" jargon. Sounds like propaganda made up to protect the wealthy (Jobs and the rest) from any other POV. Face the facts- Apple is a huge corporation and like all other huge corporations, they are oppressing people around the globe. A little "blowback" as the Bush administration puts it, is to be expected. Stealing software is a joke, not a crime. How many employees of software companies slept on the street last year anyway? Do they eat out of garbage cans? Please, find someplace real to place your concerns. Being worried about the wealth of billionaires is a waste of your life.

WoW...
That was good... mind if I use that one...

 

[MrSmith]

seems like people on here are a tad obsessed with capitalism- all this "respecting other peoples property" jargon. Sounds like propaganda made up to protect the wealthy (Jobs and the rest) from any other POV. Face the facts- Apple is a huge corporation and like all other huge corporations, they are oppressing people around the globe. A little "blowback" as the Bush administration puts it, is to be expected. Stealing software is a joke, not a crime. How many employees of software companies slept on the street last year anyway? Do they eat out of garbage cans? Please, find someplace real to place your concerns. Being worried about the wealth of billionaires is a waste of your life.

I have to agree.

Nothing to do with the thread, but thinking aloud, hasn't anyone else thought how ridiculous it is we actually have to PAY for an operating system. The piece of software that actually allows us to RUN the machine that we purchased from the company. Software that has to be replaced periodically because otherwise we can't run up-to-date applications.

Someone will compare it to having to buy petrol for cars, but I don't think it's the same. They're two completely different industries. Actually I can't think of any parallels. Most times we have to buy parts for things because the parts have worn out or broken. But we have to buy new OSs just so we can continue using the machine (and the latest software, which we do need to invest in). If making the computer guys rich wasn't the number one concern, commonsense tells me they'd want to keep us running their machines with the greatest ease possible. I.e being able to turn them on without being told we can't run an application because we're missing parts.

Surely in 10 or 20 years we'll tell our grandchildren we used to pay for the OS and they won't believe it.

Anyway, sorry for the irrelevance...

 

[broken_keyboard]

I know this goes against MR rules but I have to say this...That's just blindingly stupid. A moral judgment made by other nations is more important then the ability of your population to be able to think critically? Which is in and of itself a basis for the ability to form a moral judgment. If you can't read, write, know your history, if you don't have the fundamentals of an education you won't have the mental faculties to make a sound judgment on what is right and wrong.

If western textbooks were some magic talisman that you give to third world kids and they suddenly become educated, then I would agree with you. But they are not, because of the following fact of nature: thinking (unlike your heartbeat for example) does not happen automatically.

You have to sit there and focus and concentrate and put the effort in, and not be distracted etc. And all that is a huge moral effort.

You would have a bunch of kids with that latest textbooks who don’t understand why they should bother with them. I would have a bunch of kids with fewer, older textbooks who understand in the same breath why they should not steal them and why they must work hard to understand them.

 

[broken_keyboard]

This is not to say I don't support copyright, I certainly do. But I can also see that it is in many people's and nation's interest to flaunt it: and I can also say, without a doubt, that we'd do the same in their position. This does not mean we don't try and penalise them for breaking our laws: if we are powerful enough to enforce our laws, we should certainly do so (cf. British Raj in India). The fact that piracy exists in certain nations is as much a reflection on our lack of ability to enforce our (not their) interest.

But I believe it is in their (poor people's) interest to uphold copyright too. We know from our long history that when property rights are upheld people are more prosperous, and when they are not people are less prosperous. That is a principle - it is hard won knowledge about what inevitably happens in the long term.

Therefore when we see people copying stuff and supposedly benefiting from it, we know it is just an anomaly, and they are really hurting themselves in the long run.

So if we really care about poor people, we must tell them not to do it.

 

[broken_keyboard]

pirates are cooler than ninjas.

But ninjas are more powerful.

 

[carbonmotion]

But I believe it is in their (poor people's) interest to uphold copyright too. We know from our long history that when property rights are upheld people are more prosperous, and when they are not people are less prosperous. That is a principle - it is hard won knowledge about what inevitably happens in the long term.

Therefore when we see people copying stuff and supposedly benefiting from it, we know it is just an anomaly, and they are really hurting themselves in the long run.

So if we really care about poor people, we must tell them not to do it.

yes america became more prosperous by upholding the property rights of the native americans, the phillipinos, the mexicans, the cubans, the chinese, the africans, the south americans... need i go on?

 

[monty77]

what a load of horse****.

it's no different anywhere. productivity software is expensive. i'm in the US, but ms office is expensive here too. it doesn't justify piracy. i know it happens, but -i'm- not complacent about it. and i don't do it.


and as has been pointed out, this will be out in a few days now. i already pre-ordered it at a discount from amazon, i couldn't imagine wanting to use a pirated OS of all things. seems stupid.

US $300 is a LOT of money to most people in that part of the world given that the average wage is 5-10 times less than in the US. Would you pay $3000 for a copy of MS Office? Thought not.

A

 

[SoGood]

Another way to look at it

Here's another angle to look at this issue.

Apple is charging full price the world over for their hardwares. So it doesn't matter if you are in the US or Bangladesh, you are hit by the same RRP (well, the Bangladeshi price is probably at least 10-30% more than those from US mail-order discount houses). Ok, so Apple makes the same margin from both buyers. Now, the US buyers probably would be in a better financial position to pay for the maintenance upgrades (OSs etc), while the Bangladeshi probably have already exhausted their limited saving just to make the hardware purchase. So through piracy, the end result is that the "total life-time ownership cost" of that Mac is cheaper in Bangladesh than in the US, thus making Mac ownership more balanced as a percentage of the respective average incomes. As for Apple, there's more profits made on a US sale than a Bangladash sale over the life-time of that machine. A factored discount...

The only problem with some of these arguements is, the wealth gap in third world countries are typically very large, the rich there are often richer than the average American while the poors are dirt poor. So setting a discounted price for third world countries would just further benefit the wealthy ones in those countries. While the poor still can't come close to a PC, let alone a Mac.

More and more complicated isn't it?

 

[cwedl]

its very ignorant to say "im gonna steal this cause i cant afford it" its less than $200 dollars, and most of us can use student discount which makes it less than 80 dollars. if you cant afford it then you shouldnt use it, i dont care if you do have the hardware, if you cant afford something new, stick with the old. i could understand if its bread or something to keep you alive but this is just software, cant afford it dont use it, if you WILL die for not having it get a job, or just dig yourself a hole. dont like my $0.02 well then .... ...

I agree, something like an operating system should not be pirated, panther is still a very good operating system and will still run all of your existing software. If you can't afford it there's always Leopard Mac OSX 10.5 to start saving for.

 

[mlrproducts]

I don't really know anything about the cost of making the retail CDs/DVDs but would it be possible for companies to buy and run the factories that make the CDs/DVDs? Maybe then they could keep a closer eye on stuff like this. Again, I know next to nothing about this, but it's an idea.

Millions of dollars to delay the inevitable 10 days...

 

[mlrproducts]

I have to agree.

Nothing to do with the thread, but thinking aloud, hasn't anyone else thought how ridiculous it is we actually have to PAY for an operating system. The piece of software that actually allows us to RUN the machine that we purchased from the company. Software that has to be replaced periodically because otherwise we can't run up-to-date applications.

Someone will compare it to having to buy petrol for cars, but I don't think it's the same. They're two completely different industries. Actually I can't think of any parallels. Most times we have to buy parts for things because the parts have worn out or broken. But we have to buy new OSs just so we can continue using the machine (and the latest software, which we do need to invest in). If making the computer guys rich wasn't the number one concern, commonsense tells me they'd want to keep us running their machines with the greatest ease possible. I.e being able to turn them on without being told we can't run an application because we're missing parts.

Surely in 10 or 20 years we'll tell our grandchildren we used to pay for the OS and they won't believe it.

Anyway, sorry for the irrelevance...

Why would you not have to pay just because it is integral? You don't HAVE to upgrade. Eventually, you have to upgrade to run the latest apps, but if you kept the same computer your whole life producers would make no money!

Take a car for example - you buy a car and the manufacturer gives you all the parts under the hood brand new. Now over the course of the car's useful life you have to "upgrade" the parts by replacing them back to new as they break and become less useful/obsolete (just like an OS). Eventually, the whole car will go kaput and you have to buy a new one, just like a computer (the car has a definite mechanical useful life, but the computer has a useful life related to its utility).

Honestly, I've pirated things for the PC, Mac, and non-related. However, when it comes to OS X their price really is reasonable! As a student, I can buy 5 music CDs or an operating system that will last a lot longer, tell me which industry is the devil!

 

[Echidna]

Software compatibility

Out of interest, can anyone running either this build, or the developers' previews comment on how software written for Panther runs on Tiger ? I'm going to buy Tiger in a month or so, but I'd like to know in advance what works and what doesn't...

Of critical importance to me are :
Microsoft Office 2004
Macromedia Dreamweaver/Fireworks MX 2004
Zend Studio IDE (and java apps in general like Eclipse)

Not critical, but make life so much easier :
Sidetrack and Workspace manager

It'd be great if I could just do an upgrade and have everything ticking over as usual

 

[MrSmith]

Take a car for example - you buy a car and the manufacturer gives you all the parts under the hood brand new. Now over the course of the car's useful life you have to "upgrade" the parts by replacing them back to new as they break and become less useful/obsolete (just like an OS). Eventually, the whole car will go kaput and you have to buy a new one, just like a computer (the car has a definite mechanical useful life, but the computer has a useful life related to its utility).

Firstly, I replace bits on my car when they break, not when they're running fine but become obsolete. What part of a car becomes 'obsolete'?

Secondly, money could (or should?) be made on hardware and application software.

Imagine every few years your car doesn't work anymore because the petrol companies keep bringing out new fuel. I wouldn't expect to fork out to change my engine.

But as I said there are no real parallels yet. In just about every other household appliance there is either no technological advance (like toasters) or any technological change allows you to use the appliance you already have until you decide to upgrade it (like VHS and DVD). It doesn't one day become impossible for me to watch videos on my VHS player because, say, the video format changes.

 

[munkle]

I have to agree.

Nothing to do with the thread, but thinking aloud, hasn't anyone else thought how ridiculous it is we actually have to PAY for an operating system. The piece of software that actually allows us to RUN the machine that we purchased from the company. Software that has to be replaced periodically because otherwise we can't run up-to-date applications.

Someone will compare it to having to buy petrol for cars, but I don't think it's the same. They're two completely different industries. Actually I can't think of any parallels. Most times we have to buy parts for things because the parts have worn out or broken. But we have to buy new OSs just so we can continue using the machine (and the latest software, which we do need to invest in). If making the computer guys rich wasn't the number one concern, commonsense tells me they'd want to keep us running their machines with the greatest ease possible. I.e being able to turn them on without being told we can't run an application because we're missing parts.

Surely in 10 or 20 years we'll tell our grandchildren we used to pay for the OS and they won't believe it.

Anyway, sorry for the irrelevance...

I think you've missed the point.

Tiger is not a compulsory upgrade...it does not render Panther useless. And when you buy your computer it does come with an OS.

To use your analogy, it's more akin to a new car coming out with a better engine. It doesn't mean that your old car should be given a free upgrade to that engine and it doesn't mean your car stops running!

Edit: it seems I was a bit late with replying there! And boy do people love comparing computers to cars!

 

[carbonmotion]

Guys I've played around with tiger on my friend's g5 because he is a developer. I think its one of those operating systems that you will HAVE TO upgrade to no matter what you think. there are major changes to the back end of the operating system including a SQL based data basing system which powers spot light... there are also stuff like Quartz extreme 2d (turned off by default, but to be activated later visa vi updates) which new programs will take advantage of. if you're not planing on getting much new software, then stick with panther, if you are then it would look like you're upgrading.

 

[klaus]

there are also stuff like Quartz extreme 2d (turned off by default, but to be activated later visa vi updates) which new programs will take advantage of.

Could somebody explain this feature into more detail. I know that it supposedly speeds up your guy with a tremendous amount. But why is it disabled by default, and why would they enable it only via future os updates?

 

[bubbalwz]

etc. etc.

Any way you choose to justify pirating, it is not right. Yes, it is a judgment call, but the following is not... any way you dress it up, it is still theft.

Moreover, by extension your logic would justify slavery when it too was a worldwide "fact of life". Does that make it right?

The points you do bring up are interesting though. They definitely show that there is no simple solution to this theft.

So since piracy is breaking the law, and breaking the law is obviously wrong, I guess you're one of the ones that always goes the speed limit, right? Guess you've never "estimated" any deductions on your taxes either. What about throwing someone else's mail away because it was put in the wrong post box because it was junk anyway?

 

[gopher]

i want to know how Apple can sell Tiger in the US for $129 (£67) and the exact same thing costs £88 in the UK. £21 more.

fairplay the UK student discounted Tiger costs around £60, but how much less will the US one cost?

if i could pay the US student price for Tiger, i would buy it right now. but because its about £20 more i have to think more about it, and if i really need it

This has to do with Value Added Tax which often gets passed on to the consumer. Ask your governments to work out a better World Trade Agreement so that Value Added Tax is not so high.