Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[Aylan]

Sorry, but you're not being realistic about this. The reasons are endless.

• The "backlash" you're talking about would come from a tiny fraction of the user base. The people who blather on these forums all day—like me and you—are not representative of the user population. Over 90% of computer users make purchases without looking at benchmarks. (Source: multiple studies of consumer purchasing decisions I ran in my last career in market research.)
• Actually, what you proposed would cost Apple more. As I stated above, an Iris 5200 + a dGPU would be cost prohibitive. The 2.4Ghz + 5200 combo costs a whopping $657. And keep in mind that's far away from Haswell's top speed.
• iGPUs are the future for Apple laptops. There's a reason Intel's been throwing ridiculous sums of money into developing this stuff. An integrated platform offers tremendous power savings potential, not to mention better profit and revenue for Intel.
• Apple has not chosen to prioritize graphics power in their laptops. Every generation, you'll find other cards they could have chosen, but didn't for reasons of power consumption. Apple's priority is marketing size, form, and function (i.e., slim and long battery life) above power.
• Note that you won't even find the words "NVIDIA" or "650M" in the text on Apple's current MacBook Pro web page on performance—the very page that specifically talks about graphics. You have to go all the way down to the tiny footnotes.
• We return to marketing, and lo and behold, there are numerous benchmarks where the Iris 5200 beats the 650M. Cherry-picked, sure, but in marketing, that doesn't matter. Being able to show even one pretty bar graph while touting increased batter life is incredibly powerful for marketing.

Seriously, I'd love a dGPU too, but it's not going to happen.

You make good points, but your pricing is not entirely correct. Apple would not use the $657 part as a default, it would be a BTO option and you'd pay the premium for it. The 2.4 Ghz part I quoted was for a 28W i5 with HD5100.

Also, I agree that consumers and people who buy iToys do not care about specs but the Pro users definitely do. Especially on a $2500+ laptop.

I am just making guesses, that is all. But as far as $ is concerened, I think it can be done. Time will tell

 

[B...]

Did you take time to read the specs? It has 2 cores with hyperthreading and has been released in Q3 2013!...

I did, actually. You said it was a "core 2 duo". That's incorrect.

 

[jafingi]

Did you take time to read the specs? It has 2 cores with hyperthreading and has been released in Q3 2013!...

Still not a Core 2 Duo. That's a model identifier like the Pentium was years ago! Now it's just i3, i5, i7.

Call it an i5 dual core. It's NOT a Core 2 processor!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_2

Edit: B.... was faster

 

[GSPice]

Did you take time to read the specs? It has 2 cores with hyperthreading and has been released in Q3 2013!...

Mmm.. wrong. Not a Core 2 Duo. Sometimes semantics is important.

 

[Aylan]

What? No. The current 3635QM is, as you noted, $378.

One Haswell version—the GT3e—has the HD5200. That version is considerably more expensive than the other major (quad core mobile) version—the GT2—which has the HD5100. The 4950HQ (2.4Ghz, 5200) costs $657, while the low-end 4750HQ (2.0Ghz, 5200) costs $440.

$440 takes care of the whole kit-and-kaboodle, and runs $68 more than the current low-end CPU but doesn't necessitate the purchase of a dGPU. Paying more than current prices and then adding on a dGPU would be idiotically stupid. If they wanted to add a dGPU, they'd certainly go with a GT2 option for less cost. Bundling up two fully capable dGPUs would be the epitome of insanity and idiocy, especially given that
(A) the current Retinas do OK in day-to-day stuff with the HD4000, and
(B) the HD4600 benchmarks show a significant improvement from their predecessor

Your whole argument about "inferior" doesn't apply because in your fantasy world, there's still a powerful dGPU. But that is, as I said, a fantasy world. And in the real world, the Air uses the HD5000 and the Pro will in all likelihood use the HD5200. There is no chance—and I mean 0.0000% chance—that you'll see a HD5200+dGPU bundle. Zero.

This is a company whose stock price has been hammered more than anything due to profit margin compression. You're not going to see anyone on the business side over there just give up margin in a Gomer Pyle "aw shucks" moment.

I suppose I should have seriously considered an i7 Haswell with HD4600. That would keep costs the same and allow them to use the 750M.

Watch Apple pull a crazy stunt and not use HD5200 but instead use a custom GT3e GPU that indeed outperforms a 650M in all areas.

 

[thepoynt]

Did you take time to read the specs? It has 2 cores with hyperthreading and has been released in Q3 2013!...

Just a bit of confusion on the terminology going on here. "Core 2 duo" was the name of a specific line of Intel processors (replaced by the "i" series). "Duo core" or "Dual core" is a general term for a processor with 2 cores. That's what you meant to say there.

 

[Jordan-D]

Is there a CPU ft iGPU HD4600 with a higher clockspeed than the one in the July benchmark? The latter would be the mid-base model whereas the high-end would sport a HD4600 with a dGPU.

 

[sofianito]

Folks, you are fine stitching... . Indeed I meant dual core . I guess it is because I still own a 2008 MBP core 2 duo and didn't update yet...

The topic is we have an i7 dual core that supports 16GB RAM!. Any chance to have a 13" rMBP with 16GB RAM?

 

[john123]

You make good points, but your pricing is not entirely correct. Apple would not use the $657 part as a default, it would be a BTO option and you'd pay the premium for it. The 2.4 Ghz part I quoted was for a 28W i5 with HD5100.

Perhaps you have misinterpreted me. The 2.4Ghz part corresponds to the top-end configuration, just like you can do today. It's the same one that appeared in the Geekbench benchmarks. Assuming the marketing remains the same (i.e., two models), then the stock high-end would be the 4850HQ (2.3Ghz), which costs $468. And this suggests why I emphasize assuming the marketing remains the same...BTO'ing today from 2.7Ghz to 2.8Ghz costs $250 retail. By contrast, the wholesale part cost increases under Haswell from 2.0 to 2.4 are $28 and $189, respectively. Hopefully the issue is obvious.

Also, I agree that consumers and people who buy iToys do not care about specs but the Pro users definitely do. Especially on a $2500+ laptop.

No, most Pro users don't review benchmarks before purchasing either. They see "new" and are typically persuaded by the marketing collateral. In this case, the pitch is battery life and a small increase in performance.

People always overstate this as some sort of barrier, and then act shocked when Apple's actions don't agree with them. It happens every time in one of these threads.

I am just making guesses, that is all. But as far as $ is concerened, I think it can be done. Time will tell

"Can be done" and "Likely to be done" are completely different things. You are not thinking like a business person. I'm suggesting—not so subtly—that you do.

I suppose I should have seriously considered an i7 Haswell with HD4600. That would keep costs the same and allow them to use the 750M.

Per the above, there is no compelling business case to do so.

Watch Apple pull a crazy stunt and not use HD5200 but instead use a custom GT3e GPU that indeed outperforms a 650M in all areas.

The crazy stunt would be Intel's, and that's not a very realistic expectation either.

----------

Is there a CPU ft iGPU HD4600 with a higher clockspeed than the one in the July benchmark? The latter would be the mid-base model whereas the high-end would sport a HD4600 with a dGPU.

Yeah, if you ditch Iris Pro 5200 and go with the HD 4600, the CPU clock speed can go all the way up to 3.0Ghz on the quad cores.

 

[Aylan]

Perhaps you have misinterpreted me. The 2.4Ghz part corresponds to the top-end configuration, just like you can do today. It's the same one that appeared in the Geekbench benchmarks. Assuming the marketing remains the same (i.e., two models), then the stock high-end would be the 4850HQ (2.3Ghz), which costs $468. And this suggests why I emphasize assuming the marketing remains the same...BTO'ing today from 2.7Ghz to 2.8Ghz costs $250 retail. By contrast, the wholesale part cost increases under Haswell from 2.0 to 2.4 are $28 and $189, respectively. Hopefully the issue is obvious.


No, most Pro users don't review benchmarks before purchasing either. They see "new" and are typically persuaded by the marketing collateral. In this case, the pitch is battery life and a small increase in performance.

People always overstate this as some sort of barrier, and then act shocked when Apple's actions don't agree with them. It happens every time in one of these threads.



"Can be done" and "Likely to be done" are completely different things. You are not thinking like a business person. I'm suggesting—not so subtly—that you do.


Per the above, there is no compelling business case to do so.


The crazy stunt would be Intel's, and that's not a very realistic expectation either.

----------

I think you may have taken my guesses a bit too seriously. I'm not a business person so I'll let Apple make its business decisions. I simply wanted to put in my two cents with what Apple may do. I'm not in the market for a 15" anyway and I'll be happy with my HD5100 13". For the sake of the Pro customers I still hope Apple doesn't go backwards and release an IGP only 15". I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't just pick up a refurbished one instead. That's what I would do if I was waiting for the Haswell refresh. Although the battery running time will be insane if they in fact drop the dGPU. Perhaps a BTO option with dGPU? The space and cooling requirements are there.

 

[mcarling]

As far as everything I've read, Intel has no plans to integrate the Thunderbolt controller into the CPU die ....

Intel's short-term plan is to integrate the Thunderbolt controller into the PCH. Then in a few years to integrate the PCH (including the Thunderbolt controller) and the CPU into one die. We're already seeing the CPU die and the PCH die integrated onto one chip for 15W Haswell parts.

Any chance to have a 13" rMBP with 16GB RAM?

The 2012 13" rMBP uses 16 4Gbit chips to get 8GB. The 2013 MBA uses 8Gbit chips. So Apple could put 16GB into a 2013 13" rMBP by using 16 8Gbit chips, if they were to choose to do so.

 

[ka-spot]

The 2012 13" rMBP uses 16 4Gbit chips to get 8GB. The 2013 MBA uses 8Gbit chips. So Apple could put 16GB into a 2013 13" rMBP by using 16 8Gbit chips, if they were to choose to do so.

I'm waiting for this too.

 

[sofianito]

For the sake of the Pro customers I still hope Apple doesn't go backwards and release an IGP only 15". I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't just pick up a refurbished one instead.

Since 13" customers are not anymore "Pro", then we should find a new name for the 13" model: 13" rMBAP?

Retina Macbook AirPro...

 

[Brian Kendig]

It's starting to become interesting to see all the things Apple is dropping from its high-end laptop. Only two USB ports. No Ethernet port. No optical drive. Only integrated graphics. Non-upgradable memory. Non-upgradable SSD. Non-replacable battery. No option for a matte display.

For half the price, I can get a Windows laptop that doesn't skimp on any of those. What would I sacrifice? Weight and battery life, but I can live with that (I'm rarely far from a power outlet). And Windows 8 sucks, but really, these days everything is on the web and in the cloud, so it doesn't much matter which operating system I use.

 

[Vanilla35]

It's starting to become interesting to see all the things Apple is dropping from its high-end laptop. Only two USB ports. No Ethernet port. No optical drive. Only integrated graphics. Non-upgradable memory. Non-upgradable SSD. Non-replacable battery. No option for a matte display.

For half the price, I can get a Windows laptop that doesn't skimp on any of those. What would I sacrifice? Weight and battery life, but I can live with that (I'm rarely far from a power outlet). And Windows 8 sucks, but really, these days everything is on the web and in the cloud, so it doesn't much matter which operating system I use.

I don't think it's a coincidence that there was a rumor the other day about how Steve almost did away with the Pro line. I think it's way too ironic. They're probably testing the "audience"

 

[Brian Kendig]

I don't think it's a coincidence that there was a rumor the other day about how Steve almost did away with the Pro line. I think it's way too ironic. They're probably testing the "audience"

Yeah - keep this up, and the only thing "pro" about these MacBooks will be the price.

So right now the only thing keeping me from picking up a Windows laptop (with a discrete GPU) is that Windows laptops are designed stupidly. Why squeeze a numeric keypad onto a 15" laptop? Why push the trackpad way over to the left instead of centering it? Why still include the optical drive (ditching it is one of the nicest things about the MacBooks)? Why continue to have the power plug in the back of the laptop where it can be easily broken?

Can anyone recommend a 15" Windows laptop that has a little of the MacBook Pro's design ethic, but without the limited features and the high pricetag?

 

[IndoX]

Yeah - keep this up, and the only thing "pro" about these MacBooks will be the price.

So right now the only thing keeping me from picking up a Windows laptop (with a discrete GPU) is that Windows laptops are designed stupidly. Why squeeze a numeric keypad onto a 15" laptop? Why push the trackpad way over to the left instead of centering it? Why still include the optical drive (ditching it is one of the nicest things about the MacBooks)? Why continue to have the power plug in the back of the laptop where it can be easily broken?

Can anyone recommend a 15" Windows laptop that has a little of the MacBook Pro's design ethic, but without the limited features and the high pricetag?

Windows laptops that have the same build quality of macs cost about the same. Might as well stick with macs.

 

[bkin94]

]

Can anyone recommend a 15" Windows laptop that has a little of the MacBook Pro's design ethic, but without the limited features and the high pricetag?

can someone please point me to the magical windows laptop with this and a comparable SSD, battery, and CPU for this "half the price" that I keep hearing about?

 

[Eidorian]

Windows laptops that have the same build quality of macs cost about the same. Might as well stick with macs.

That's what I'm seeing. You're not saving much if any going with a Windows Ultrabook.

 

[john123]

I think you may have taken my guesses a bit too seriously. I'm not a business person so I'll let Apple make its business decisions. I simply wanted to put in my two cents with what Apple may do. I'm not in the market for a 15" anyway and I'll be happy with my HD5100 13". For the sake of the Pro customers I still hope Apple doesn't go backwards and release an IGP only 15". I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't just pick up a refurbished one instead. That's what I would do if I was waiting for the Haswell refresh. Although the battery running time will be insane if they in fact drop the dGPU. Perhaps a BTO option with dGPU? The space and cooling requirements are there.

Sigh. We keep going over this. First, you acknowledge that you don't have a business background, so see all the previous cost and economic discussion for what what you're proposing is simply impractical.

Second, an iGPU is not really a major step "backwards." On most things, the Iris 5200 will be more than adequate. Would keeping the 650M or putting in a 750M be better? Sure. But for a lot of "pro" tasks, the difference isn't going to be that big. The only audience actually getting seriously screwed is gamers.

A BTO with dGPU is, for all the reasons previously mentioned, highly unlikely. The market segment is too small; it's confusing; it creates a marketing nightmare; it's more or less unnecessary; etc.

This is why people routinely get disappointed with new product releases. They talk themselves into a corner and convince themselves that some far-fetched ideas make sense, and then get upset when those illogical ideas don't come to fruition.

 

[Vanilla35]

Yeah - keep this up, and the only thing "pro" about these MacBooks will be the price.

So right now the only thing keeping me from picking up a Windows laptop (with a discrete GPU) is that Windows laptops are designed stupidly. Why squeeze a numeric keypad onto a 15" laptop? Why push the trackpad way over to the left instead of centering it? Why still include the optical drive (ditching it is one of the nicest things about the MacBooks)? Why continue to have the power plug in the back of the laptop where it can be easily broken?

Can anyone recommend a 15" Windows laptop that has a little of the MacBook Pro's design ethic, but without the limited features and the high pricetag?

Asus Zenbook is significantly cheaper than the 15" rMBP. It's actually got the design of the MBA, but fits the same specs as the Retina MBP.

 

[sofianito]

The laptop design/aesthetic war is secondary... The main war is about operating systems... Neither Microsoft, Canonical, Open source community, nor any other contender or outsider came up with something that could compete seriously against Mac OS X...

 

[mcarling]

I'm amused that, for several contributors to this thread, anyone who makes a living with their laptop is not a "pro" user and the only "pro" users are those who play games 40+ hours/week.

 

[Ichabod.]

A BTO with dGPU is, for all the reasons previously mentioned, highly unlikely. The market segment is too small; it's confusing; it creates a marketing nightmare; it's more or less unnecessary; etc.

This would probably also require two completely differently designed logic boards, only to satisfy those that choose this BTO option.

A bit of a disappointing development, since I at least want the versatility to game when I get the time, but the points that you and others raise just make a lot of sense.

 

[mcarling]

This would probably also require two completely differently designed logic boards, only to satisfy those that choose this BTO option.

A bit of a disappointing development, since I at least want the versatility to game when I get the time, but the points that you and others raise just make a lot of sense.

I previously posted a link to a review of the Iris Pro 5200 HD graphics that showed it to be more than adequate for gaming at 1080p.