Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[john123]

This would probably also require two completely differently designed logic boards, only to satisfy those that choose this BTO option.

A bit of a disappointing development, since I at least want the versatility to game when I get the time, but the points that you and others raise just make a lot of sense.

Yeah, agreed on both counts. I'd be thrilled with an HD5100 + 760M combo, although given the wattage, the best we'd have any chance of seeing is the 750M. I'd give it a 15% chance of happening, and even then I'm probably being overly optimistic.

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I previously posted a link to a review of the Iris Pro 5200 HD graphics that showed it to be more than adequate for gaming at 1080p.

The benchmarks at Anandtech suggest that for anyone who really values FPS (i.e., MMORPG players), the Iris 5200 is a significant step backward in most cases.

 

[jafingi]

Folks, you are fine stitching... . Indeed I meant dual core . I guess it is because I still own a 2008 MBP core 2 duo and didn't update yet...

The topic is we have an i7 dual core that supports 16GB RAM!. Any chance to have a 13" rMBP with 16GB RAM?

Read this: https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=17707341#post17707341

And you will understand the complications of a 16GB 13"

 

[mcarling]

Read this: https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=17707341#post17707341

And you will understand the complications of a 16GB 13"

No, you won't, because that post is wrong. First, both the 13" and 15" rMBP have RAM chips on both sides of the motherboard, not just one. Second, it gets the chip capacities wrong.

The 2012 13" rMBP has 16 DDR3 chips (8 on each side) each of which has 4gigabit capacity. Apple are already using 8gigabit chips in the 2013 MBA, so they could use the same chips in the MBP. 16 chips of 8gigabit capacity each would total 16GB.

 

[ValSalva]

No, you won't, because that post is wrong. First, both the 13" and 15" rMBP have RAM chips on both sides of the motherboard, not just one. Second, it gets the chip capacities wrong.

The 2012 13" rMBP has 16 DDR3 chips (8 on each side) each of which has 4gigabit capacity. Apple are already using 8gigabit chips in the 2013 MBA, so they could use the same chips in the MBP. 16 chips of 8gigabit capacity each would total 16GB.

It's only in the use of higher density RAM modules that the 13" rMBP would get an option for 16GB. So while this isn't confirmation it's excellent news

 

[toppernh]

No, you won't, because that post is wrong. First, both the 13" and 15" rMBP have RAM chips on both sides of the motherboard, not just one. Second, it gets the chip capacities wrong.

The 2012 13" rMBP has 16 DDR3 chips (8 on each side) each of which has 4gigabit capacity. Apple are already using 8gigabit chips in the 2013 MBA, so they could use the same chips in the MBP. 16 chips of 8gigabit capacity each would total 16GB.

I think I tried to explain this before but I will try again. I work on SoC memory interfaces as a signal integrity hardware engineer.

The 2013 MBA used LPDDR3, not DDR3L like rMBP's, and even though they have a 3 in their name they are not the same technology.

The 2013 MBA's have four LPDDR3 x32 chips mounted on one side of the board. The x32 means each chip have 32 data bits on each chip. The processor has two 64 data bit interfaces. This matches the four LPDDR3 chips 32 x 4 = 64 x 2 = 128.

As for capacity, 8Gb (note small "b" for bits) times 4 is 4GB (note capital "B" for bytes or 8 bits) and 16Gb times 4 is 8GB. This matches the memory capacities of the 2913 MBA's. Intel has a document showing SK Hynix and Elpida are approved for 8Gb and 16Gb LPDDR3 chips.

Current rMBP's use DDR3L chips - 13" has 16 chips top & bottom and the 15" has 32 chips top & bottom. Since the processor memory interface is still 128 bit total, so 13" used x8 chips and 15" uses x4 chips. To get 8GB max in the 13", 4Gb parts are used (16 x 4Gb = 8GB) and to get 16GB max in the 15", 4Gb chips are used (32 x 4Gb = 16GB).

So for the next rMBP's to go to 16GB and 32GB, Apple would need to go to DDR3L 8Gb chips, not 16Gb. The problem is these DDR3L 8Gb parts are very expensive because they are only available as dual die parts from Micron and SK Hynix. It looks like single 8Gb chips won't ever be main stream until DDR4.

So it's technical 16 & 32GB can be done but I doubt it will happen because of cost.

 

[Erphern]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'll be happy to simply see a refresh of the desktop/notebook line with 802.11ac. Everything else is pretty much OK as it is for my work/home use. Just makes sense to get a new computer that matches the new AirPort Extreme, but that's about it.

 

[sofianito]

I think I tried to explain this before but I will try again. I work on SoC memory interfaces as a signal integrity hardware engineer.

The 2013 MBA used LPDDR3, not DDR3L like rMBP's, and even though they have a 3 in their name they are not the same technology.

The 2013 MBA's have four LPDDR3 x32 chips mounted on one side of the board. The x32 means each chip have 32 data bits on each chip. The processor has two 64 data bit interfaces. This matches the four LPDDR3 chips 32 x 4 = 64 x 2 = 128.

As for capacity, 8Gb (note small "b" for bits) times 4 is 4GB (note capital "B" for bytes or 8 bits) and 16Gb times 4 is 8GB. This matches the memory capacities of the 2913 MBA's. Intel has a document showing SK Hynix and Elpida are approved for 8Gb and 16Gb LPDDR3 chips.

Current rMBP's use DDR3L chips - 13" has 16 chips top & bottom and the 15" has 32 chips top & bottom. Since the processor memory interface is still 128 bit total, so 13" used x8 chips and 15" uses x4 chips. To get 8GB max in the 13", 4Gb parts are used (16 x 4Gb = 8GB) and to get 16GB max in the 15", 4Gb chips are used (32 x 4Gb = 16GB).

So for the next rMBP's to go to 16GB and 32GB, Apple would need to go to DDR3L 8Gb chips, not 16Gb. The problem is these DDR3L 8Gb parts are very expensive because they are only available as dual die parts from Micron and SK Hynix. It looks like single 8Gb chips won't ever be main stream until DDR4.

So it's technical 16 & 32GB can be done but I doubt it will happen because of cost.

Thanks for the clear explanation

Knowing Apple buys everything wholesale, how much do you think a 8Gb ram chip would cost them? and how much it likely cost to the customer to upgrade from 8GB to 16GB?

The question that is bugging me is: how come brands like Lenovo could reach 32GB on their top-notch laptop w530? What RAM technology and chips are they using?

 

[Brian Kendig]

can someone please point me to the magical windows laptop with this and a comparable SSD, battery, and CPU for this "half the price" that I keep hearing about?

Well, for starters, a Lenovo Y510p: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y510p/

2.4GHz Haswell i7
15.6" LED 1920x1080
GeForce GT750m 2GB
8GB RAM 1600MHz
1TB 5400rpm HD
Dual-layer DVD burner
Wireless-N, Bluetooth

$969.

The battery is "up to 5 hours", but like I said, battery life is not as important to me - I'm rarely far from a power outlet.

Spend $200-$300 to swap the HD with an SSD and it still comes in far less expensive, more powerful, and more upgradable than the current MBP Retina.

 

[toppernh]

Thanks for the clear explanation

Knowing Apple buys everything wholesale, how much do you think a 8Gb ram chip would cost them? and how much it likely cost to the customer to upgrade from 8GB to 16GB?

The question that is bugging me is: how come brands like Lenovo could reach 32GB on their top-notch laptop w530? What RAM technology and chips are they using?

The Lenovo W530 uses four SODIMMs to get 32GB. Each SODIMMS has 16 x4 4Gb DDR3 chips for 8GB total. So they are using the same technology & sizes as the rMBP but using SODIMMs rather than chips down on the board. rMBP have the equivalent of two SODIMMs, just like the cMBPs which have two actual SODIMM slots.

The wholesale cost of 8Gb chips compared to 4Gb chips is a bit over twice as much because there are two 4Gb dies in each chip plus twice the assemble cost of the total package. I would guess Apple would charge twice the current 8GB to 16GB upgrade cost to go from 16GB to 32GB.

 

[mcarling]

So for the next rMBP's to go to 16GB and 32GB, Apple would need to go to DDR3L 8Gb chips, not 16Gb. The problem is these DDR3L 8Gb parts are very expensive because they are only available as dual die parts from Micron and SK Hynix. It looks like single 8Gb chips won't ever be main stream until DDR4.

So it's technical 16 & 32GB can be done but I doubt it will happen because of cost.

Apple buy in large enough volumes that they can have 8Gbit chips in any bus width they want, from 8Gbit (addressable) x 1 bit wide to 1Gbit (addressable) x 8 bits wide to 256Mbit (addressable) x 32 bits wide to 64Mbit (addressable) x 128 bits wide, in whatever technology they want, DDR3L or LPDDR3, that is suitable for use with Haswell chips. Elpida will be happy to make whatever Apple want.

 

[Serban]

Well, for starters, a Lenovo Y510p: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y510p/

2.4GHz Haswell i7
15.6" LED 1920x1080
GeForce GT750m 2GB
8GB RAM 1600MHz
1TB 5400rpm HD
Dual-layer DVD burner
Wireless-N, Bluetooth

$969.

The battery is "up to 5 hours", but like I said, battery life is not as important to me - I'm rarely far from a power outlet.
Spend $200-$300 to swap the HD with an SSD and it still comes in far less expensive, more powerful, and more upgradable than the current MBP Retina.

So our 15" macbook pro will benefit for that beter display, for the 10 time faster PCIe, for the wifi ac (i dont know why lenovo still on N) and i hope for the same GPU 750M or even better 760M, and last for at least 9h battery life

 

[toppernh]

Apple buy in large enough volumes that they can have 8Gbit chips in any bus width they want, from 8Gbit (addressable) x 1 bit wide to 1Gbit (addressable) x 8 bits wide to 256Mbit (addressable) x 32 bits wide to 64Mbit (addressable) x 128 bits wide, in whatever technology they want, DDR3L or LPDDR3, that is suitable for use with Haswell chips. Elpida will be happy to make whatever Apple want.

I have to disagree. I work for a very large company who has access to all the DRAM vendors. Its not the data path width that is the issue but the yield on 8Gb memory arrays. 8Gb DRAM dies are not available currently so any 8Gb DRAM chip will be multiply dies thus costing more than single die DRAM chips.
Those 16Gb LPDDR3 chips are multiple dies in a package but since they only need 4 per MBA and people realistically need up to 8GB, Apple can support the added cost.
32 multi-die DRAMs for a 32GB rMBP would be very expensive.
Anything can be done at a cost but I don't see Apple doing it to sell a few BTO 32GB rMBPs.

 

[GSPice]

I previously posted a link to a review of the Iris Pro 5200 HD graphics that showed it to be more than adequate for gaming at 1080p.

Which link did you post? This one?

 

[Pentad]

Anybody else see this:

"System builder CyberPowerPC just announced its new Zeus Hercules gaming laptop with Haswell inside. You might think that such a name would be reserved for a high-powered notebook with dual GPUs, but in this instance, the Zeus Hercules leans on integrated graphics to push pixels around its 14-inch display. Intel Iris Pro Graphics 5200, to be exact, which Intel claims offers up to twice the 3D performance of today's fastest mobile Intel HD Graphics solutions."

From Maximum PC

They say it's really a Clevo W740SU but available now.

I don't care about this notebook but I thought the Iris Pro Graphics 5200 was interesting and that it is available now.

-P

 

[Eidorian]

Anybody else see this:

"System builder CyberPowerPC just announced its new Zeus Hercules gaming laptop with Haswell inside. You might think that such a name would be reserved for a high-powered notebook with dual GPUs, but in this instance, the Zeus Hercules leans on integrated graphics to push pixels around its 14-inch display. Intel Iris Pro Graphics 5200, to be exact, which Intel claims offers up to twice the 3D performance of today's fastest mobile Intel HD Graphics solutions."

From Maximum PC

They say it's really a Clevo W740SU but available now.

I don't care about this notebook but I thought the Iris Pro Graphics 5200 was interesting and that it is available now.

-P

I brought it up 3 days ago when I found that Clevo on XoticPC's page.

 

[mcarling]

8Gb DRAM dies are not available currently so any 8Gb DRAM chip will be multiply dies thus costing more than single die DRAM chips.

Clear now. Thanks.

32 multi-die DRAMs for a 32GB rMBP would be very expensive.
Anything can be done at a cost but I don't see Apple doing it to sell a few BTO 32GB rMBPs.

I never suggested that we would see 32GB MBPs this year. (For the record, I think it's implausible given that we can't yet get 13" rMBPs with 16GB.) I did suggest that we might see 16GB 13" rMBPs introduced this year (possibly as a BTO option). The memory cost would be approximately the same for the 13" as for the 15" models and the space constraints could be overcome as described previously.

BTW, I believe the cost difference would be trivial between two 4Gbit dies each one on its own chip versus those same two 4Gbit dies combined onto one chip. Would you agree?

 

[thundersteele]

The question that is bugging me is: how come brands like Lenovo could reach 32GB on their top-notch laptop w530? What RAM technology and chips are they using?

It is just a matter of having enough space. Just like desktops can easily hold 32 GB of RAM in four slots, the W530 can do the same.

The workstation is 1.5 lb heavier and about twice as thick as the rMBP. So it is not surprising that they have enough space to fit all that RAM.

The current Mac Pro has 8 RAM slots for a total of 64 GB RAM btw.

 

[zOlid]

Well, for starters, a Lenovo Y510p: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y510p/

2.4GHz Haswell i7
15.6" LED 1920x1080
GeForce GT750m 2GB
8GB RAM 1600MHz
1TB 5400rpm HD
Dual-layer DVD burner
Wireless-N, Bluetooth

$969.

The battery is "up to 5 hours", but like I said, battery life is not as important to me - I'm rarely far from a power outlet.

Spend $200-$300 to swap the HD with an SSD and it still comes in far less expensive, more powerful, and more upgradable than the current MBP Retina.

Yeah thats true.
But its like comparing Apples and oranges.
That computer is more powerful in games if the rMBP don't get a dGPU, that's true.
But its:
Heavier.
Thicker.
Got a lower resolution LED screen.
Not the same build quality.
Not unibody.
Not made from aluminium.
Less battery.
Only N WiFi.
No SSD.
No TB port.


And so on....


Its a gaming laptop. And if you want one of those their are plenty to choose from.
They all probably got a bit more performance then the rMBP.
But they have huge drawbacks in other areas compared to the rMBP.

 

[thundersteele]

Here is something for the "I'm not gonna wait, I'm buying a Windows machine" crowd:
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y410p/?cid=US:display:JENgIi#customize

It is a bit weak in the SSD department, and no CPU upgrades are available (only the 4700HQ). Other than that it has great specs, 750M graphics with 2GB GDDR5, 1600x900 14'' display (no retina of course), and even the design is not so bad.
Did I mention user upgradable RAM (and probably also HDD?), and a starting price of $800 (it's on sale)?


Edit: Just noticed that similar models were posted before

 

[ValSalva]

Here is something for the "I'm not gonna wait, I'm buying a Windows machine" crowd:
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y410p/?cid=US:display:JENgIi#customize

It is a bit weak in the SSD department, and no CPU upgrades are available (only the 4700HQ). Other than that it has great specs, 750M graphics with 2GB GDDR5, 1600x900 14'' display (no retina of course), and even the design is not so bad.
Did I mention user upgradable RAM (and probably also HDD?), and a starting price of $800 (it's on sale)?


Edit: Just noticed that similar models were posted before

And it runs Windows 8. I'd buy the current rMBP, 13" or 15", 999 out of 1000 times before I'd even consider this PC crap. Been there, done that. Never again.

 

[smoking monkey]

Which link did you post? This one?

As a non gamer I'm really excited about this shift to an Intergrated GPU. If it means better battery, cooler, thinner and lighter(???) then I think it's a massive step forward. If the only downside is it will only be good with games instead of great then I reckon it's a good sacrifice! Haha... sux to be a gamer.

 

[bill-p]

As a non gamer I'm really excited about this shift to an Intergrated GPU. If it means better battery, cooler, thinner and lighter(???) then I think it's a massive step forward. If the only downside is it will only be good with games instead of great then I reckon it's a good sacrifice! Haha... sux to be a gamer.

It may only mean better battery life.

Cooler is not a certainty, nor is thinner nor lighter.

This isn't the iPad.

And the performance hit may be more profound for some professional applications like Photoshop and AutoCAD and Maya, which make heavy use of 3D graphics.

 

[GSPice]

It may only mean better battery life.

Cooler is not a certainty, nor is thinner nor lighter.

This isn't the iPad.

And the performance hit may be more profound for some professional applications like Photoshop and AutoCAD and Maya, which make heavy use of 3D graphics.

It'll be interesting to watch the keynote and subsequent hands-on reviews. Might clear up a few thousand comments on this thread.

 

[tecknik1]

And it runs Windows 8. I'd buy the current rMBP, 13" or 15", 999 out of 1000 times before I'd even consider this PC crap. Been there, done that. Never again.

Not to mention it weights 5.5 lb.

 

[fskywalker]

And it runs Windows 8. I'd buy the current rMBP, 13" or 15", 999 out of 1000 times before I'd even consider this PC crap. Been there, done that. Never again.

I agree! Have to deal with Windows machines at work since there it's not my choice, but home, it is another story.......