Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[Watabou]

Hahaha. Nice job man


Btw stay tuned for the iGPU v. dGPU resurrection. I'm just organizing everything now

I think everything there is to say about that topic has been said already, hasn't it?

I think I've come to terms with there being no dGPU. I don't game a lot and even if I do, the iris pro should be a huge upgrade over my 8600m dGPU. I will mainly be doing video editing and Iris Pro will be better anyways.

I'll be disappointed if the dGPU is absent but not angry.

 

[Vanilla35]

I think everything there is to say about that topic has been said already, hasn't it?

I think I've come to terms with there being no dGPU. I don't game a lot and even if I do, the iris pro should be a huge upgrade over my 8600m dGPU. I will mainly be doing video editing and Iris Pro will be better anyways.

I'll be disappointed if the dGPU is absent but not angry.

We'll find out. It's still quite controversial. There are inherent losses with Iris Pro over the 750M/760M, and it is not just games. That is just the most obvious point.

Also, I'm sure everyone has come to terms with it at this point, but that doesn't mean we can't still talk about it. I'm not trying to push buttons here, just re-articulating thoughts, a second time around

 

[Watabou]

We'll find out. It's still quite controversial. There are inherent losses with Iris Pro over the 750M/760M, and it is not just games. That is just the most obvious point.

Yeah and I'm not denying that. I know Iris Pro won't be ideal if you do 3D modeling/rendering.

Also, I think most people are forgetting that apple actually overclocked the 650M GT in the current MacBook Pro so it has the same power as the GTX. So it's unlikely that Apple will drop the dGPU this year. They know that Iris pro won't be enough for professionals.

So I think that we're either getting a better Iris Pro like what was rumored or a dGPU.

 

[Erphern]

See, and that's where I'm lost on the controversy.

If you're doing rendering work and so on, why the balls would you be relying on a laptop for the heavy lifting? Doesn't sound like a "pro" way of doing things at all.

...Which kinda breaks the whole "pro" argument, doesn't it?

Someone enlighten me? I really don't know - I'm going to use the thing for remote desktop and command line stuff most of the time.

 

[Vanilla35]

Okay so here is the iGPU vs. dGPU debate – revisited


Here is a general summary of Haswell, and how it serves to work, for those who aren’t aware: (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409566,00.asp)


Here are a few comments from the iGPU side of things:

I see no way they put an Iris Pro AND a dedicated GPU into the Macbook. Why would they, they are only like 20-30% apart!
Take your second configurations but with weaker GPUs (750m, maybe 760m) and you will end up, with what we might get. Either that, or Iris Pro only

My personnal guess is that Apple will drop the dGPU only on the base model in order to lower the base price, similar to what they did in 2009 with the 15" cMBP.

But thats exactly the thing - I don't see how this is possible, as the Iris Pro carries a cost premium comparable to that of an dGPU. CPU models with 5200 are $100 more expensive then those with 4600, mostly because Iris Pro uses expensive embedded RAM.

My personnal guess is that Apple will drop the dGPU only on the base model in order to lower the base price, similar to what they did in 2009 with the 15" cMBP.

A few months ago I assumed the same but there was this geekbench leak of the 4950hq MBP. Only a 4750HQ basemodel makes any sense but with a 4950HQ it has to be a high end model and it wouldn't make any sense to add a dedicated GPU in one such.
It is most likely HD 5200 only all the way. People can probably choose between the three cpus and the whole price will probably drop somewhat.

The 4750HQ isn't all that expensive but with the 4850 it gets expensive and the 4950 is more expensive than a dedicated solution with a more reasonable CPU.

Concerning the 750M:

Since NVidia doesn't have a new product ready, the 750M is based on the same architecture (GK107) as the 650M, with a slightly higher clock speed. Since the 650M in the rMBP is already overclocked, the performance improvement with a 750M might be marginal to non-existent.

Qualitatively, it is like the early 2013 upgrade of the MBPs... just a higher clock speed, but the same processor type.

An underclocked 760M might be a better choice, or maybe some ATI card. But neither is going to happen, most likely we will see an optimized HD5200+, or whatever that special Apple version of Iris Pro will be called.

Several weeks ago, I posted something almost exactly like this in the "Waiting for Haswell" thread. I no longer believe it to be likely. One, it requires separate fabrication processes. While there is some history of that (2009), it's less likely. Second, and more important, it's a small marketing nightmare. Third, the number of users for whom the lack of a 750M is a deal breaker is rather small. Fourth, that leaked benchmark was the high-end 2.4Ghz chip with the Iris 5200, which costs a whopping $657. Granted, the fact that 2.0s came late to the party may mean that this prototype was never intended to see the light of day, but still..

As a business weighing competing tradeoffs, I really think it's going to be the Iris 5200 across the entire 15" rMBP line.

Now the side favoring dGPU:

They won't be able to tout any better battery life when going without a dedicated GPU as the numbers they claim now only work out if you do not actually use the dGPU anyway.

In pure TDP they could put a 4670R 65W Desktop part into a 15" when removing the 650M. Or up the TDP to 55 of one of the 47W parts. In both cases battery life would more likely go down rather than up compared to a similar notebook with a dGPU that can be shut off.

Well, the problem with all kind of integrated graphics is that its still has to draw lots of power to be fast. Intel is no exception. I doub't that increased performance of Iris Pro comes for 'free', after all, the increased amount of EU will need more watts to power them. Let us look at a comparison. An 4850HQ with Iris Pro and 4800MQ with HD4600 both have the TDP of 45W, while 4850HQ has slightly slower clocks. Still, if you want to boost the GPU performance, you will have to tone down the CPU clocks to realistically maintain the TDP. For stuff which does not require much performance (video decoding, desktop composition etc.), a slower HD4600 is more then enough, and for demanding use, a fast CPU (not constrained by power requirements of the on-die GPU) + a dedicated GPU should provide better performance with a tolerable impact on battery life. Not to mention that prices for Iris Pro equipped CPUs are ridiculous.

My personnal guess is that Apple will drop the dGPU only on the base model in order to lower the base price, similar to what they did in 2009 with the 15" cMBP.

It used to cost $1999 in 2008, but they could reduce the base price to $1799 in 2009 because of this, while also offering dGPUs on two other pre-built configs.

See the configurations here:
Late-2008 15-inch MacBook Pro
Mid-2009 15-inch MacBook Pro

Intel offers their 47W TDP Haswell CPUs with either Iris Pro 5200 or HD 4600 graphics. The HD 4600 models are cheaper and allow for higher CPU clock/TurboBoost speeds so I think that's what Apple will go with for models with a dGPU.

Assuming Apple stays with NVIDIA for discrete graphics, I'd expect something like this:

Base model:
2.0GHz quad-core Intel Core i7
Turbo Boost up to 3.2GHz
8GB 1600MHz memory
256GB flash storage
Intel Iris Pro 5200 graphics
$1,899

Second model:
2.4GHz quad-core Intel Core i7
Turbo Boost up to 3.4GHz
8GB 1600MHz memory
256GB flash storage
Intel HD 4600 graphics
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M with 2GB of GDDR5 memory
$2,099

Third model:
2.7GHz quad-core Intel Core i7
Turbo Boost up to 3.5GHz
16GB 1600MHz memory
512GB flash storage
Intel HD 4600 graphics
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M with 2GB of GDDR5 memory
$2,599

If someone wanted to maximize his battery life and often used applications which force the use of discrete graphics on hybrid models, without using them to their full potential (Photoshop for example), he would most likely be more satisfied with the base model.
Although I suspect this would not be something common, the main benefit of this move would more be the lower price.

I see, although I have no idea what the price of something like the overclocked GT 650M cost to Apple.

CPU models with the Iris Pro 5200 actually cost a bit less than 100$ more than their HD 4600 equivalent. Wikipedia states a 4850HQ is $88 more than a 4800MQ, and the difference would probably be lower for a cheaper model like the 4750HQ, not to mention Apple probably negociate better prices with the kind of volume they must order.

Do you think a discrete GPU like they currently use cost less than that? I'd be surprised, considering a desktop GT 650 Ti is around $200, but like I said I have no idea.

If using HQ (Iris Pro) Haswell CPUs was more expensive than using their MQ equivalent + dGPU, why would Apple go that route (like leaked benchmarks suggest), just to increase battery life when using apps that force the use of discrete graphics on hybrid models? Because if I'm understanding correctly, a hybrid-GPU laptop has the same battery life as one with no dGPU at all when automatic switching is on with applications that don't force the use of the dGPU.

No, even more than the space, this would be prohibitively expensive. You'd be much more likely to see Intel HD 4600 alongside a dedicated dGPU.

Prohibitively expensive? Not a chance. You can buy a desktop 650 for ~$100. That includes newegg's markup and the 3rd party manufacturer profit. That also includes the massive PCB and cooling system (as compared to a laptop). For apple to add a 750m to the rmbp would cost them something like $60 for BOM and manufacturing (given the quantities apple buys it could be lower: if lenovo can sell a 15.6" laptop for $900 with SLI 650m, i7 quad, and 1080p display apple can easily fit it in its budget).

correct me if i'm wrong but the new iris igp will have lower power consumption at the same "form of activity", hence lowering the consumption.

Highly doubt that iris pro will have lower power consumption than HD 4600 (because the dgpu is deactivated for > 99% of all tasks the average consumer does on battery sans gaming). Edram + additional EUs is going to push the power budget.

Don't forget that apparently Apple is getting an exclusive custom Iris Pro with more power. Ask yourselves: How do you get such a deal? By agreeing to order large quantities. How can you achieve that: By only using one type of CPUs in that machines.

Who says something about such a deal.
Even if it was neither exclusive nor custom. The only thing Intel would change is clock speed or TDP headroom. Both things Intel offers to anybody. Every one of these chips sold allows custom TDP up settings. Absolutely nothing exclusive about it just how you'd like to use them.
Intel can only offer so much at a given TDP and ever since Ivy Bridge they ship CPUs with three different TDP settings that only need to be activated.
You can by just a single one of these chips and have fun with it.

Photoshop will see a significant performance drop because it relies more on OpenGL than it does on OpenCL.

OpenCL is used for very specific features, but it's not a necessity for a large number of tools while OpenGL actually is a necessity for some things to work.

Also without OpenGL, manipulating the canvas on a high resolution project is slow as molasse...

It's easy to check. Just disable GPU acceleration in Photoshop and then try to do things.

Sigh...

Again, for the umpteenth time, Iris Pro inherently has hardware problems. You can't remedy that with a software "fix".

Its performance falls off a cliff on any benchmark when the resolution is increased past 1680 x 1050 because there is just not enough high-bandwidth memory for the iGPU to access.

I'm not sure why so much is expected of the chip when reality has always pointed on the opposite side.

Mind posting the link to said Notebookcheck test? I couldn't find this no matter how hard I tried. The only reference was to an external review done by a German website.

And I know there are 2 German reviews of Iris Pro. The one done with 4750HQ had comparisons to GeForce GT 750M, but it's super dubious at best.

If they took those "results" from this chart:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/images/stories/galleries/reviews/schenker_s413/spieleleistung.png

On this website:
http://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/notebooks/27246-schenker-s413-im-test.html

Then some of them just don't look "right". And said website has demonstrated favorable attitude toward Intel and less toward the laptop that runs 750M.

Even if those look "right", the comparison chart on Notebookcheck actually takes the results of the GT 650M w/ DDR3 results into account as well. The 650M w/ DDR3 is very definitely bandwidth starved.

I know because my rMBP with 650M w/ GDDR5 gets much better results for some of those.

For instance, Bioshock Infinite at all High settings and 1366 x 768 under Bootcamp, I get 60-75fps.

Battlefield 3, at all High settings and 1366 x 768, I get 55-62fps.

Diablo 3 at Ultra (as in everything maxed out) and 1920 x 1080, I get 70fps.

Call of Duty Black Ops with everything maxed out and at 1920 x 1080, I get 38-45fps.

Those numbers look way too low.

In fact, Skyrim with "ultra" at 1920 x 1080, I get 45fps. Almost doubled what they're showing.



Resolution is an issue... when you consider bandwidth and memory capacity.

If not, why would high-end graphics cards like the GTX 680 come with 1GB VRAM or more instead of 512MB or 256MB? Seeing as 128MB in Iris Pro is enough?

Honestly, I think you're just wishing that Iris Pro wouldn't be too bad at this point, but... I'm sorry to burst your bubbles: it is.

They may just be asking for higher-binned Iris Pro chips that allow them to set it reliably at a higher TDP than the default 47W.

Refer to Anandtech's article:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/5



If they do that, though, then the power-saving benefits of Iris Pro would turn out to not be so significant after all.



Refer to the above about why the power saving benefits may not be so significant.

In the configuration that Anandtech had it, Iris Pro gets pretty close to 650M in the current rMBP, but still quite a bit behind. It's understandable because Apple overclocked the 650M in the rMBP to exceed 660M performance while keeping TDP down.

But the point is Iris Pro was running close to 70W with Turbo Boost.

And unlike separate 45W CPU + 45W GPU config where the GPU may hit 45W but the CPU may be at 20W, you're looking at a single chip that will happily Turbo until it hits 70W... no matter if it's the CPU or GPU that's under load.

So in the end, the situation under load levels out either way. You probably save 10-15W at absolute max load at most if Apple goes that route.

But there is no realistic case where you have both the CPU and GPU running at max load (total 90W) on the rMBP unless you're running Folding@HOME or something else like that.

And the screen really does use that much power. The battery is 95WHr, but even at idle, I can only get a max of 9 hours. Most of the time less. That means the screen, just sitting there being pretty, consumes roughly 8-10W per hour on average. That's nothing to scoff at considering most other panels would sip battery at 3-5W.

 

[Geoffb3]

^ I am sure there are a tone of professionals that need to do work (rendering and the like) on the go. I know i do.

The rMBP was great for this actually, I am looking at buying a second for myself when I am on the road, but if it only has the iris pro, I think I will have to reconsider.

And often when rendering through a remote desktop I have had no luck, it is so unreliable when travelling. IMO

 

[Watabou]

See, and that's where I'm lost on the controversy.

If you're doing rendering work and so on, why the balls would you be relying on a laptop for the heavy lifting? Doesn't sound like a "pro" way of doing things at all.

Why not? I think most people doing actual pro work already have an iMac or a Mac Pro so a laptop as great as the rMBP would be really helpful while on the go. It's certainly reliable, why would you not rely on it?

 

[Vanilla35]

Most reasons I have to debate against the Iris Pro only configuration would be the pure loss of performance in certain aspects (other than gaming) of computing. Open GL, any sort of rendering, video editing, etc. The lack of dedicated ram is kind of a big deal in some situations. Also Iris pro eating at system memory which would probably cause problems with resource hogging if both attempt simultaneously. Intel drivers in place of NVIDIA ones surely would have some people at a substantial loss just for that reason alone, and unless they had a team working to get all of that ready regarding certain programs (which we would have heard about) that's pretty much guaranteed.

The benefit of an overclocked 750M (or possibly a 760M could fit) would be substantial enough to warrant a 15% gain in performance over the 650M. Which would place it higher than Iris pro by a larger margin then that even, since it doesn't meet the 650M in all tasks. Also even though the 750M comes with all the benefits of a newer GPU. It's the same chipset, but it has, improved GPU boosting (even though it's questionable), lower wattage, and a higher clock speed with faster ram.

I think that all lines, including the legacy macbooks will receive Iris Pro, and the retinas will get the 750M with 2GB ram. I can't see apple dropping the cMBP's and leaving a massive gap from $1,100-$1,500 and again from $1,700-$2,200. Plus the cMBP sells quite well and they would have to drop rMBP prices by $200 in order to mitigate the situation.

The only comment against this thought (I think) would be the cost of Iris Pro, and I don't think that is a make or break because first of all this is basically where Intel is going with their graphics, and second they have substantial buying power, and the cost you pay between the 13" and 15" covers this bump anyway.

Also, another point to aid this potential outcome is the fact that tons of ~14" ultrabooks are coming out with 750M-760M graphics. It makes sense apple would follow this too (not that that means they will)

 

[Erphern]

Why not? I think most people doing actual pro work already have an iMac or a Mac Pro so a laptop as great as the rMBP would be really helpful while on the go. It's certainly reliable, why would you not rely on it?

I'd imagine I'd hand off the work to my server farm.

Not my line of work, but that's how I think I'd prefer to orchestrate things.

 

[ChildishGambino]

Well 85 shouldn't be too hard for me anyways. But why would Toronto high schools be less stringent then schools from other parts of Canada or the world?

I take it you haven't met a lot of people from around the world yet. I've attended both and Toronto high schools are far less stringent than those in Asia.

 

[The Leafs Fan]

Hahaha. Nice job man


Btw stay tuned for the iGPU v. dGPU resurrection. I'm just organizing everything now

That debate was great. It'll be cool to be actually a part of it this time.

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I take it you haven't met a lot of people from around the world yet. I've attended both and Toronto high schools are far less stringent than those in Asia.

Well you got me there. But why would you assume that's the case with all Toronto high schools with the most likely small sample size you've dealt with?

 

[APPLE-FANATIC]

Apple seriously needs to release these Haswell rMBPs so we dont have to continue going back in time, lol!! Eventually I assume this thread will turn into "Waiting for Haswell rMBP to ship"

 

[ChildishGambino]

Well you got me there. But why would you assume that's the case with all Toronto high schools with the most likely small sample size you've dealt with?

Its the system not the people. It doesn't push people to excel it simply pushes people along. Toronto isn't this super massive place, when you get through university and meet people from every high school you get a good feel of how it is in general. But I didn't mean for it to be this serious I was merely jesting .

Onwards to October!

 

[GSPice]

It'll only work if people come back and start posting about it again. I've made the quotes though so they'll get a notification.

Also will be adding my own thoughts at the end

Excellent

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That debate was great. It'll be cool to be actually a part of it this time.

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Well you got me there. But why would you assume that's the case with all Toronto high schools with the most likely small sample size you've dealt with?

He's not assuming. It's about national culture, not specific schools.

 

[The Leafs Fan]

Its the system not the people. It doesn't push people to excel it simply pushes people along. Toronto isn't this super massive place, when you get through university and meet people from every high school you get a good feel of how it is in general. But I didn't mean for it to be this serious I was merely jesting .

Onwards to October!

Oh whoops . Well Toronto is the largest city in Canada, and I believe the 3rd largest in North-America.

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Excellent

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He's not assuming. It's about national culture, not specific schools.

How so?

 

[GSPice]

Okay so here is the iGPU vs. dGPU debate – revisited


Here is a general summary of Haswell, and how it serves to work, for those who aren’t aware: (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409566,00.asp)


Here are a few comments from the iGPU side of things:



Now the side favoring dGPU:

My best hope that Apple will include a GPU has been mentioned.. there are a handful of slim notebooks which have "next gen" dGPUs. If Apple goes a completely different direction with hardware, they historically seem to have a very capable solution, not a compromise. And please folks, don't even talk to me about Apple dropping optical drives.. they're one of the last remaining mechanical scourges of computer technology.

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Oh whoops . Well Toronto is the largest city in Canada, and I believe the 3rd largest in North-America.

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How so?

My immediate family and I lived in Toronto for generations. On my dad's side, Jamaica- at which time the educational system was heavily influenced by the British - very strict. Even then, many Asian cultures have a deep, deep reverence for private and public excellence.. it's not just in schools, but in society. Shame and pride are deeply impressed upon them from a very early age. Nothing like most western societies. I'm not saying I understand it.. You really can't unless you've been raised in it yourself.

 

[mcarling]

Being able to show off rMBPs with Haswell running Mavericks and getting exceptional battery life will be a big deal for a fairly large percentage of the market. ...

I think it's unrealistic at this point (past the Sept event) to expect anything other than a refresh lined up with the Mavericks release in October.

There is one big hole in this theory. Apple could show off today a Haswell MBP running Mavericks. Whenever the Haswell MBPs are ready to ship, Apple can show them off running Mavericks whether or not Mavericks is shipping yet. Whenever the Haswell MBPs are ready to ship, Apple can boast about the battery life running Mavericks whether or not Mavericks is shipping yet. I see no reason to delay the Haswell MBPs until Mavericks is ready to release.

 

[The Leafs Fan]

My best hope that Apple will include a GPU has been mentioned.. there are a handful of slim notebooks which have "next gen" dGPUs. If Apple goes a completely different direction with hardware, they historically seem to have a very capable solution, not a compromise. And please folks, don't even talk to me about Apple dropping optical drives.. they're one of the last remaining mechanical scourges of computer technology.

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My immediate family and I lived in Toronto for generations. On my dad's side, Jamaica- at which time the educational system was heavily influenced by the British - very strict. Even then, many Asian cultures have a deep, deep reverence for private and public excellence.. it's not just in schools, but in society. Shame and pride are deeply impressed upon them from a very early age. Nothing like most western societies. I'm not saying I understand it.. You really can't unless you've been raised in it yourself.

I thought you were refering to Canada's culture..... Whoops. Well I know what you mean by Asian cultures having those deeps references for private and public excellence. I've read a bit about it, although as you said yourself, you cannot really understand it unless you've been raised in it yourself. For both my parents, Albania- when the country was still behind was still communist- was also pretty strict.

 

[GSPice]

I thought you were refering to Canada's culture..... Whoops. Well I know what you mean by Asian cultures having those deeps references for private and public excellence. I've read a bit about it, although as you said yourself, you cannot really understand it unless you've been raised in it yourself. For both my parents, Albania- when the country was still behind was still communist- was also pretty strict.

Interesting! Yeah those eastern cultures.. what is it about them?

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There is one big hole in this theory. Apple could show off today a Haswell MBP running Mavericks. Whenever the Haswell MBPs are ready to ship, Apple can show them off running Mavericks whether or not Mavericks is shipping yet. Whenever the Haswell MBPs are ready to ship, Apple can boast about the battery life running Mavericks whether or not Mavericks is shipping yet. I see no reason to delay the Haswell MBPs until Mavericks is ready to release.

You're absolutely right. It's trivial for Apple to advertise battery life with simple disclaimers, ie running Mavericks.

 

[Eidorian]

Well this is interesting.

http://fudzilla.com/home/item/32524-broadwell-won’t-make-it-to-desktop

Haswell Refresh is for the desktop side while Broadwell is mobile. There is going to be a desync of updates between the lines of processors.

 

[The Leafs Fan]

Well this is interesting.

http://fudzilla.com/home/item/32524-broadwell-won’t-make-it-to-desktop

Haswell Refresh is for the desktop side while Broadwell is mobile. There is going to be a desync of updates between the lines of processors.

Well as long as there is a mobile Broadwell update, I'm fine with that.

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Interesting! Yeah those eastern cultures.. what is it about them?

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You're absolutely right. It's trivial for Apple to advertise battery life with simple disclaimers, ie running Mavericks.

More like Eastern European.

 

[PDFierro]

So some people are holding out hope for a Sep. 24 update? I'd love that, but not expecting it.

 

[powerslave12r]

So some people are holding out hope for a Sep. 24 update? I'd love that, but not expecting it.

Don't be bringing that negativity in here man. Repeat after me:

TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH!
TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH!
TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH!
TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH! TWEN~TY FOURTH!

 

[The Leafs Fan]

don't be bringing that negativity in here man. Repeat after me:

Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!

:d

Yeah let's do this:
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!
Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth! Twen~ty fourth!

 

[Mr MM]

Well this is interesting.

http://fudzilla.com/home/item/32524-broadwell-won’t-make-it-to-desktop

Haswell Refresh is for the desktop side while Broadwell is mobile. There is going to be a desync of updates between the lines of processors.

old news, this has been leaked quite a while ago, can't believe they only posted yesterday