Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[Eidorian]

old news, this has been leaked quite a while ago, can't believe they only posted yesterday

Who posted it earlier?

 

[GSPice]

Assuming that they are using the Iris Pro 5200, as predicted, I was under the impression that that chip literally did not allow for a dGPU.

Also, since the CPUs with Iris Pro 5200 already costs as much as a CPU + dGPU, it doesn't make sense.

However, if they used the regular CPUs with the 4600 graphics and a dGPU, I'd be pretty happy...but it sounds unlikely based on the rumors available.

Yes, I wasn't implying in any way whatsoever that there'd ever be a 5200+dGPU.

 

[mcarling]

I'm also hoping the new models come with a mild price reduction (-$100?) or a base spec upgrade in ram or hard drive.

I don't think there is any plausible chance that Apple would increase the base RAM above 8GB this year -- and probably not next year either. An increase in the base SSD above 128GB is possible, but I think unlikely because Apple were still offering 64GB in the 11" MBA until a few months ago. I think a reduction in the base price would do more for Apple than an increase in the base SSD capacity.

Yes, I wasn't implying in any way whatsoever that there'd ever be a 5200+dGPU.

Others did.

 

[yemble]

Given that iris 5200 was designed because of a specific apple request,

It was??

 

[PDFierro]

I don't think there is any plausible chance that Apple would increase the base RAM above 8GB this year -- and probably not next year either. An increase in the base SSD above 128GB is possible, but I think unlikely because Apple were still offering 64GB in the 11" MBA until a few months ago. I think a reduction in the base price would do more for Apple than an increase in the base SSD capacity.

Yeah, absolutely no way will 16GB be base RAM this year. And not for a few years. But I'd be stoked if a 256GB SSD became standard on the 13-inch, although I'm not counting on that either.

 

[GSPice]

Others did.

Roger that, he was quoting me - so I clarified.

 

[Pia2013]

My beloved MacBook Pro (13", Early 2011) was stolen out of my livingroom while I was sleeping a bit more than a month ago ... "luckily" I kept my old Windows laptop (from 2008) whose fan is always on and extremely loud. When I watch videos it just shuts down... so: happy days.

I am really hoping for the new MacBooks to come out soon. The insurance money just arrived... even enough for a new one with retina. What I will buy depends on what the new ones have to offer. Kind of fell in love with the 13" retina in the store, though (who couldn't?). Any chances of more SSD in the base model?

Did anybody read the news about the macbook supplier helping with producing iPhones? Do you think this would influence shipping time/availability?

http://appadvice.com/appnn/2013/09/...ok-pro-supplier-to-boost-iphone-5s-production

 

[mcarling]

Given that iris 5200 was designed because of a specific apple request, ....

It was??

I'm not sure request is the most accurate possible characterization. Intel continue to push integration of what were once discrete circuits into the CPU. At the moment, the GPU is the big strategic integration push for Intel. Drastically oversimplifying, the conversation would have gone something like this:
Intel: "What features/performance do you need from an integrated GPU to ditch the discrete GPU in the 15" MacBook Pro?"
Apple: "We would need A, B, C, D, and E. If you can get to that point, we can ditch the discrete GPU."
Intel: "We'll do it. Any objections to the name Iris Pro 5200?"

 

[strakosko]

?

I'm not sure request is the most accurate possible characterization. Intel continue to push integration of what were once discrete circuits into the CPU. At the moment, the GPU is the big strategic integration push for Intel. Drastically oversimplifying, the conversation would have gone something like this:
Intel: "What features/performance do you need from an integrated GPU to ditch the discrete GPU in the 15" MacBook Pro?"
Apple: "We would need A, B, C, D, and E. If you can get to that point, we can ditch the discrete GPU."
Intel: "We'll do it. Any objections to the name Iris Pro 5200?"

How do you know this?

 

[PDFierro]

I'm not sure request is the most accurate possible characterization. Intel continue to push integration of what were once discrete circuits into the CPU. At the moment, the GPU is the big strategic integration push for Intel. Drastically oversimplifying, the conversation would have gone something like this:
Intel: "What features/performance do you need from an integrated GPU to ditch the discrete GPU in the 15" MacBook Pro?"
Apple: "We would need A, B, C, D, and E. If you can get to that point, we can ditch the discrete GPU."
Intel: "We'll do it. Any objections to the name Iris Pro 5200?"

Apple definitely pushed for Intel to include better iGPUs, but no way did they specifically request it. That's nonsense.

Apple may have requested other things of Intel, but not that.

 

[Quu]

It has always been Intels plan to integrate as many features of other components of the system in to their CPU's so they can be the sole chip provider for the system. I wouldn't be surprised to see them integrate audio and networking in to the CPU before long.

 

[Uliman]

Yeah, absolutely no way will 16GB be base RAM this year. And not for a few years. But I'd be stoked if a 256GB SSD became standard on the 13-inch, although I'm not counting on that either.

For a "Pro" designation that surely should be the case (8GB + 256GB on the 13") for the base config

----------

My beloved MacBook Pro (13", Early 2011) was stolen out of my livingroom while I was sleeping a bit more than a month ago

Were you drunk?

 

[Stef4n]

Were you drunk?

Just because his living room is probably the Time Square, he doesn't necessarily have to be drunk...

BTT: This is my 10th release of some Macbooks or Airs and the expectations or predictions of the community were always by far higher.

I expect a base 128gb modell with 8gb ram, hashwell and of course no price drop ... sad but true.

 

[strakosko]

Amazon discounting rMBP 15"

Apple MacBook Pro ME665LL/A 15.4-Inch Laptop with Retina Display
now for $2499.99 on amazon.ca (the machine is for $2799 on Apple.ca)

First signs?

 

[mcarling]

How do you know this?

I used to work for Intel. I used to work for NeXT. I knew Steve before the founding of Apple. I could go on, but it's clear enough to me how these guys play together.

----------

It has always been Intels plan to integrate as many features of other components of the system in to their CPU's so they can be the sole chip provider for the system.

That was not part of Intel's plan in the 1970s and 1980s, but it has been part of Intel's plan since sometime in the 1990s.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them integrate audio and networking in to the CPU before long.

I would be surprised -- even very surprised -- if Intel were to not integrate audio and networking into the CPU. The current integration step is the GPU. The next integration step will be the PCH. It will not stop there.

 

[Vanilla35]

I used to work for Intel. I used to work for NeXT. I knew Steve before the founding of Apple. I could go on, but it's clear enough to me how these guys play together.

----------


That was not part of Intel's plan in the 1970s and 1980s, but it has been part of Intel's plan since sometime in the 1990s.


I would be surprised -- even very surprised -- if Intel were to not integrate audio and networking into the CPU. The current integration step is the GPU. The next integration step will be the PCH. It will not stop there.

Do you think Intel is going to work towards improving drivers for production-like applications or is that just forever going to be a weak point in their configurations?

 

[Atomic Walrus]

Regarding the popular "Haswell = battery life and little else" argument, I haven't seen anyone directly address this post by Quu from a few pages back:

"I know this sounds crazy to people because everyone is underwhelmed by Haswell's performance but you shouldn't be really. The MacBook Air with Haswell is like what almost 1GHz lower in clock rate than the old Ivy Bridge chip it replaces but matches it in performance. It was Apples choice to put that slower Haswell chip in the MacBook Air because they wanted all day battery life. If they had kept the battery life the same they could have stuck a 2.3GHz Haswell CPU in there and boosted computational performance 20-25% which is substantial in my opinion.

Now this is where things get interesting, the Haswell Retina MacBook Pro will not be using a low power part, Apple won't be using something with a really low clock speed like they have done in the Airs. So this update won't really be that underwhelming we can expect to see around 20-25% CPU performance increase in the same clock speeds but we'll still see idle and average power consumption improvements."

I'm not a computer engineer, but I can't deny the logic in that post and it gives me hope for more than a mere battery life bump...

Thoughts?

It's a good point, but the numbers are kind of skewed for a best case scenario. If you check out some benchmarks:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7085/the-2013-macbook-air-review-13inch/3

You'll see that the Haswell Air does generally fall behind the 2012 i5 model, though not by a lot, especially in traditional CPU-bound tasks. In one particular test (iMovie export) the Haswell model only hits 82% of the 2012 i5 Air's performance.

So basically it's unclear. I'd probably take a conservative guess and say that we'll see a 5-10% performance boost on the top end models. I'm basing that on the numbers here:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/6

Where you can see that the 4770K beats a 3770K by just over 7% in single threaded tasks. I think expecting anything more than 10% would be unrealistic.

 

[Eidorian]

It has always been Intels plan to integrate as many features of other components of the system in to their CPU's so they can be the sole chip provider for the system. I wouldn't be surprised to see them integrate audio and networking in to the CPU before long.

This exactly. Motherboard vendors are going to have less and less to differentiate their products.

 

[GaspodeX]

Why do you believe that integrated graphics won't work in clamshell mode? I'll wager you haven't tried it with a Haswell MBP.

You missed out half my comment so that's out of context - I said that the integrated graphics wouldn't be able to drive a 4K Thunderbolt display (particularly in games) when in clamshell - this is a given from available bench marks.

G.

 

[Vanilla35]

You missed out half my comment so that's out of context - I said that the integrated graphics wouldn't be able to drive a 4K Thunderbolt display (particularly in games) when in clamshell - this is a given from available bench marks.

G.

Yeah I was going to ask about 4k. Not sure how Iris Pro would drive that, if really at all. Like I said, there are lots of little things that really just kind of require a dGPU. Those "requirements" aren't going to change overnight just because Iris Pro is out

----------

Assuming that they are using the Iris Pro 5200, as predicted, I was under the impression that that chip literally did not allow for a dGPU.

Do you have any evidence for that claim? I believe it is commonly assumed that they will not use with both, only due to cost.

 

[Atomic Walrus]

You missed out half my comment so that's out of context - I said that the integrated graphics wouldn't be able to drive a 4K Thunderbolt display (particularly in games) when in clamshell - this is a given from available bench marks.

G.

To be fair, you may also have trouble gaming at 4K on a GTX Titan. It already takes considerable horsepower to run games at 120 fps at 1080P (this is a common choice for competitive gamers; motion fluidity and response time over resolution), and running even 60fps at 4K would more or less require double the power you need for my example.

The intel 5xxx series iGPUs are designed to handle 4K, but for gaming? There aren't even appropriate discrete mobile GPUs for that out there at the moment. Of course it depends on what your idea of gaming is, and your acceptable performance level, but nothing that could be considered for this year's rMBP (say, 760m) is going to cut it.

 

[mcarling]

Do you think Intel is going to work towards improving drivers for production-like applications or is that just forever going to be a weak point in their configurations?

I cannot shed any light on that. It's too remote from anything I did at Intel and too much time has passed. All I can say is that Intel probably do not perceive it as materially hurting their sales (which are not to end-users).

You missed out half my comment so that's out of context - I said that the integrated graphics wouldn't be able to drive a 4K Thunderbolt display (particularly in games) when in clamshell - this is a given from available bench marks.

Aside from the fact that no GPU available today offers gaming performance at 4K resolution, the essence of my question was why do you think clamshell mode will inhibit the Iris Pro's ability to drive a 4K display? If you want to base your answer on a benchmark, a link would be appreciated.

 

[Vanilla35]

All I can say is that Intel probably do not perceive it as materially hurting their sales (which are not to end-users).

Yeah I figured that much already. Also they would have fixed it a long time ago if it did.

My personal concern with Iris Pro only is performance on average in all areas, not just specific ones.

My personal reasoning for why Apple would forgo Iris Pro only is it's compatibility across various applications.

I think it's performance is up to par (considering the 760M-765M are too big/hot for the MBP), but I'd much rather prefer a discrete GPU card that does rely upon bottlenecks and system ram siphoning to achieve it's top performance.

 

[Chris5488]

SO some interesting news here: Dell releases a new Inspiron 7000 line on september 26th. This is (undoubtedly) Dell's answer to Apple's Macbooks

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/17/dell-inspiron-7000-inspiron-11/?utm_medium=feed
http://www.cnet.com/4505-3121_7-35827692.html
http://blog.laptopmag.com/dell-inspiron-7000-series-hands-on-premium-design-for-649

Let's take a look at the 15" model shall we:
-22mm thick
-aluminium housing
-Haswell processors
-Gorilla Glass touchscreen available at 1920x1080
-Optional Nvidia Geforce graphics
-separate number pad
-battery life ranging between 8 and 12 hours
-starting at 700 dollars

I am not saying you'll get the 1920x1080 (Gorilla Glass) screen, i7 and a Nvidia dGPU for 700 dollars but it wont be much more expensive than HALF the price of the Macbook Pro retina. I don't know about you guys but these look very good, and at half the price Apple needs to be at least as good! Ofcourse it lacks the retina display and it is still a bit thicker than a retina, but you know what I mean.

Will Apple add an optional Nvdia dGPU as well? Will Apple's rMBP's achieve 12 hours as well? Will Apple drop the price since the difference is becoming huge?? Will Apple announce the new rMBP somewhere around september 26 too??? Food for the mind in this topic I guess.

 

[powerslave12r]

SO some interesting news here: Dell releases a new Inspiron 7000 line on september 26th. This is (undoubtedly) Dell's answer to Apple's Macbooks

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/17/dell-inspiron-7000-inspiron-11/?utm_medium=feed
http://www.cnet.com/4505-3121_7-35827692.html
http://blog.laptopmag.com/dell-inspiron-7000-series-hands-on-premium-design-for-649

Let's take a look at the 15" model shall we:
-22mm thick
-aluminium housing
-Haswell processors
-Gorilla Glass touchscreen available at 1920x1080
-Optional Nvidia Geforce graphics
-separate number pad
-battery life ranging between 8 and 12 hours
-starting at 700 dollars

I am not saying you'll get the 1920x1080 (Gorilla Glass) screen, i7 and a Nvidia dGPU for 700 dollars but it wont be much more expensive than HALF the price of the Macbook Pro retina. I don't know about you guys but these look very good, and at half the price Apple needs to be at least as good! Ofcourse it lacks the retina display and it is still a bit thicker than a retina, but you know what I mean.

Will Apple add an optional Nvdia dGPU as well? Will Apple's rMBP's achieve 12 hours as well? Will Apple drop the price since the difference is becoming huge?? Food for the mind in this topic I guess.

I have held off temptation from Dell's Precision line up purely because of the bulk. Precision's (and Latitudes) are one of the best laptops ever. Combined with Dell's unreal service (Business side, home users don't pay enough to get good service ) they are the best deals around. And they last forever.

What you've posted seems like a viable alternative as well. We'll see. First thing to go on there would be windows 8 replaced with win 7 pro.

I cam across this the other day, this looks unreal: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/04/campaigns/precision-m3800-workstation.