Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[devilcm3]

Yeah there Im karamazovmm, there are so far no heat issues, but with this little info it aint discarded




cooling efficiency is determined by how much the power that is expelled is dissipated, the idea is to get that power that is transformed into heat as fast and efficiently as possible.

Simply put the rmbp 15 needs a better cooling system, along with a better PSU

if you stress both the cpu and gpu to the max, it will buckle down under pressure, actually if you stress only the cpu to the max on the higher end models, it already throttles.

A serious attempt to correct that is to have wider heatpipes, the flow of the air I dont think anyone outside apple measured that, but it should be enough. There are some premade calculations to help on that, regarding the thickness and how wide those things needs to be. The mech engineers that I talk to, say that that heatpipe is not rated for that much heat, its 10w off at least, it should be wider

Not to mention that the PSU doesnt provide enough power to the machine, that means that the battery takes over so that it can provide enough juice. in the end a new 120-150w psu is needed. I think 120w should be enough, but Im not an electrical engineer, so I may be off on that. For me the 65w should go to the air (and please revamp that thing, it breaks far too easily and often), 85w should go to the 13, and 120w-150w should go to the 15

well i think that there are other factors such as fans and air?
air have a pretty bad thermal conductivity.
even though heatpipe can bring those heat out from the cpu to the heatfins it will still be subjected by how much heat can be transferred to the air which will be dissipated out from the vents.
IMO the weakest chain of the link is not the heatpipe, but rather the fans and air.

besides, adding a higher PSU rate means it will increase the heat generated by the CPU and GPU.
i think that 85W is the artificial limit imposed by apple engineers, we don't always have to increase the PSU wattage to increase performance...Moore's law will deal with it sooner or later

Edit :
http://www.upenn.edu/computing/provider/docs/hardware/powerusage.html

i can't find the 15" , but the 13" power usage is comfortably below 60W.

 

[jafingi]

But the UI is fine, how can it be better? Mine works just fine. Sounds bogus to me.

A lot of people experiences UI lag. Even an Air scrolls more smooth (with higher framerate) than the rMBP on an HD4000.

It is also a software issue, which will be fixed with Mavericks, but the improved graphics in Haswell will furthermore minimize UI lag.

 

[Mr MM]

well i think that there are other factors such as fans and air?
air have a pretty bad thermal conductivity.
even though heatpipe can bring those heat out from the cpu to the heatfins it will still be subjected by how much heat can be transferred to the air which will be dissipated out from the vents.
IMO the weakest chain of the link is not the heatpipe, but rather the fans and air.

besides, adding a higher PSU rate means it will increase the heat generated by the CPU and GPU.
i think that 85W is the artificial limit imposed by apple engineers, we don't always have to increase the PSU wattage to increase performance...Moore's law will deal with it sooner or later

Edit :
http://www.upenn.edu/computing/provider/docs/hardware/powerusage.html

i can't find the 15" , but the 13" power usage is comfortably below 60W.

no the usage of the 13 is not comfortably below 60w, I know I have one, when under load the battery gets used.

what you say about the psu doesnt make any sense.

 

[devilcm3]

no the usage of the 13 is not comfortably below 60w, I know I have one, when under load the battery gets used.

what you say about the psu doesnt make any sense.

well that was kinda strange, i've used my mac for 2.5 years and there wasn't any instance where the battery drains while charging ..

is yours 15" ? mine's 13".

hmm... which line you mean by doesn't make any sense?

 

[Mr MM]

well that was kinda strange, i've used my mac for 2.5 years and there wasn't any instance where the battery drains while charging ..

is yours 15" ? mine's 13".

hmm... which line you mean by doesn't make any sense?

I have the 2011 early 13. it drains the battery on load

everything that you said doesnt make sense. While it has been an apple policy to use the battery as a back up under load, I dont see how artificially limiting your performance is beneficial for anyone, apple doesnt advertise specs, the user gets something that doesnt provide the power that s/he paid for

nor does moore law actually works that way, doubling the transistors doesnt have any positive effects on power consumption, its backwards

 

[zOlid]

If they are waiting with the Pro´s launch until the fall.
I have a strong feeling its not just a CPU, GPU, WiFi and SSD spec bump we are going to see.
The only reason except Mavericks to wait until fall for a launch, is a bigger upgrade then that. They have released hardware before with out waiting for the new OS. So loosing 3-4 months of sales and loosing market shares to Pc's
during the start of the school year sales would not be good. The BTS sales is among the biggest cash flow increases of the year for the PC/Mac market.

Also if they choose to release the MBP during fall it puts more of a financial strain on their fan base then they would find optimal.
A more spread out release schedule is better in terms of sales.
So that can only be justified if there is a bigger upgrade coming.
Or if they plan a separate OSX event.
Cos releasing the MBP, PRO, Mavericks, iPhone, iPad, iPad mini and iOS 7 in one event is going to be much of a strain on most and they will loose the big sales numbers they could achieve if they spread it out just a bit more.


I have a feeling we are going to see more then just a spec bump. A bump in resolution or a move to IGZO feels very likely.
Or a form factor change.

Because if it was just a spec bump they would probably do the release earlier.
But big upgrades like display and form factor is something that justifies a slower release and a event.

Waiting for TB2 is just out of the question. The only way that is possible is if Apple is getting a jump start on everyone and are getting TB2 ready to release in sep-oct and don't have to wait until late 2013 early 2014.

That is still possible since Apple had monopoly on TB1 for a while when it was launched.

But display and form factor seems more feasible.

 

[devilcm3]

I have the 2011 early 13. it drains the battery on load

everything that you said doesnt make sense. While it has been an apple policy to use the battery as a back up under load, I dont see how artificially limiting your performance is beneficial for anyone, apple doesnt advertise specs, the user gets something that doesnt provide the power that s/he paid for

nor does moore law actually works that way, doubling the transistors doesnt have any positive effects on power consumption, its backwards

its not limiting the performance, but rather limiting how much power the mac can consume.
the laws of energy conservation dictates that energy input = energy output,
the more power is consumed, the more heat it will produce.

there must be a reason why they choose not to increase the mac PSU wattage or power consumption threshold on macbooks, could be because of cramped space inside macs, too much heat, etc.

the result of moores law as we seen today is increased performance while retaining the same power consumption.
I have a Sager laptop with a Q9000 before my mac, and it has exactly the same 45W TDP as the current high-end haswell processor, but of course with much lower performance

 

[Keniutek]

If they are waiting with the Pro´s launch until the fall.
I have a strong feeling its not just a CPU, GPU, WiFi and SSD spec bump we are going to see.
The only reason except Mavericks to wait until fall for a launch, is a bigger upgrade then that. They have released hardware before with out waiting for the new OS. So loosing 3-4 months of sales and loosing market shares to Pc's
during the start of the school year sales would not be good. The BTS sales is among the biggest cash flow increases of the year for the PC/Mac market.

Also if they choose to release the MBP during fall it puts more of a financial strain on their fan base then they would find optimal.
A more spread out release schedule is better in terms of sales.
So that can only be justified if there is a bigger upgrade coming.
Or if they plan a separate OSX event.
Cos releasing the MBP, PRO, Mavericks, iPhone, iPad, iPad mini and iOS 7 in one event is going to be much of a strain on most and they will loose the big sales numbers they could achieve if they spread it out just a bit more.


I have a feeling we are going to see more then just a spec bump. A bump in resolution or a move to IGZO feels very likely.
Or a form factor change.

Because if it was just a spec bump they would probably do the release earlier.
But big upgrades like display and form factor is something that justifies a slower release and a event.

Waiting for TB2 is just out of the question. The only way that is possible is if Apple is getting a jump start on everyone and are getting TB2 ready to release in sep-oct and don't have to wait until late 2013 early 2014.

That is still possible since Apple had monopoly on TB1 for a while when it was launched.

But display and form factor seems more feasible.

As much as i would like for You to be right (IGZO, form factor, etc.) im afraid it's all pipe

 

[Mr MM]

its not limiting the performance, but rather limiting how much power the mac can consume.
the laws of energy conservation dictates that energy input = energy output,
the more power is consumed, the more heat it will produce.

off course it limits the performance, you are starving the notebook, aside that you are also thermally constraining it

aside that, energy conservation doesnt actually apply here, nor its something that you use in real life, you have calculations as to how much you lose energy here and there along the way

you do are aware that cpus act like resistors right? those 0 and 1 signals are from the block of the energy pass through

there must be a reason why they choose not to increase the mac PSU wattage or power consumption threshold on macbooks, could be because of cramped space inside macs, too much heat, etc.

yes to not design a new psu

the result of moores law as we seen today is increased performance while retaining the same power consumption.
I have a Sager laptop with a Q9000 before my mac, and it has exactly the same 45W TDP as the current high-end haswell processor, but of course with much lower performance

TDP != power consumption, I dont know why people think that way

they kept the same tdp, despite intel turbo boost doesnt respecting tdps anymore, because they put those transistors through some changes, IPC has grown, arch changes, power consumption features enabled and some other things, there is no magic, and moores law is pretty basic

 

[sofianito]

Well, apart of CPU, GPU, WiFi, SSD spec bumps, we could potentially expect a TB2, a fingerprint reader, a 95% less glare screen, an improved and less faulty retina display, a slimmer body, an improved cooling system...,etc. These are real improvements if they want to justify the long wait...

If Mavericks availability is the only issue for not having released the rMBP, then people, especially BTS folks, won't forgive Apple...

 

[skaertus]

Well, apart of CPU, GPU, WiFi, SSD spec bumps, we could potentially expect a TB2, a fingerprint reader, a 95% less glare screen, an improved and less faulty retina display, a slimmer body, an improved cooling system...,etc. These are real improvements if they want to justify the long wait...

If Mavericks availability is the only issue for not having released the rMBP, then people, especially BTS folks, won't forgive Apple...

The availability of Haswell processors may be an issue as well. It was less than clear for me which processors were released on the launch date, as Intel didn't focus on that. I can see there are many "paper launches" of Haswell laptops, but just a few of them are readily available.

 

[Livewings]

Well, apart of CPU, GPU, WiFi, SSD spec bumps, we could potentially expect a TB2, a fingerprint reader, a 95% less glare screen, an improved and less faulty retina display, a slimmer body, an improved cooling system...,etc. These are real improvements if they want to justify the long wait...

If Mavericks availability is the only issue for not having released the rMBP, then people, especially BTS folks, won't forgive Apple...

We won't see a slimmer body. It's already slim enough.
I expect TB2, better CPU + GPU and better display.
That's all I ask for.

 

[sofianito]

The availability of Haswell processors may be an issue as well. It was less than clear for me which processors were released on the launch date, as Intel didn't focus on that. I can see there are many "paper launches" of Haswell laptops, but just a few of them are readily available.

But if Haswell availability were the issue, they could have behaved openly and transparently at WWDC by announcing a near refresh of rMBPs whenever Intel begins mass production of Haswell processors, but as usual, Apple acts with opacity and in an enigmatic way to raise mass expectations, which proved to be favorable for them in the past...

 

[skaertus]

But if Haswell availability were the issue, they could have behaved openly and transparently at WWDC by announcing a near refresh of rMBPs whenever Intel begins mass production of Haswell processors, but as usual, Apple acts with opacity and in an enigmatic way to raise mass expectations, which proved to be favorable for them in the past...

They wouldn't do that, as it would harm sales.

 

[Vukmon]

We won't see a slimmer body. It's already slim enough. I expect TB2, better CPU + GPU and better display. That's all I ask for.

I am with on this. These are pretty realistic expectations. Except display - I think its already beautiful and only thing that they will improve is much rigorous supply control to make sure that every single display works perfectly.

 

[sofianito]

I am with on this. These are pretty realistic expectations. Except display - I think its already beautiful and only thing that they will improve is much rigorous supply control to make sure that every single display works perfectly.

Ask more than what you expect and you'll probably get what you want . This is likely what you would do when the HR asks you about your salary expectations during the hiring process...

----------

They wouldn't do that, as it would harm sales.

This could be also another reason they are delaying the update: they likely need to clear out early 2013 remaining stock...

 

[triplenick]

I would imagine that the reason why Apple is waiting to start its BTS promo is because the new rMBPs are almost ready for public release. Apple gains a lot of market share and makes a lot of money off its computers during this season; I think it would harm them financially if they did not refresh the rMBPs during this season, knowing how many users want them and are willing to buy them immediately (like me ).

 

[APPLE-FANATIC]

Ask more than what you expect and you'll probably get what you want . This is likely what you would do when the HR asks you about your salary expectations during the hiring process...

----------



This could be also another reason they are delaying the update: they likely need to clear out early 2013 remaining stock...

Wouldn't they start clearing out the stock now by stopping the shipments to resellers? Amazon.com is up and down with stock as well as MacMall. Maybe we will see a shortage soon. I still think they may have done the benchmark test on Mavericks just to assure that its fully capable of handling the new OS as well as the current OS.

 

[PaulSpr]

Maybe Apple will hold a Pro event within 2 months? Announcing updated MBP's, availability and configurations of the new Mac Pro and updates to Logic, Final Cut and Aperture.

 

[APPLE-FANATIC]

Maybe Apple will hold a Pro event within 2 months? Announcing updated MBP's, availability and configurations of the new Mac Pro and updates to Logic, Final Cut and Aperture.

I hope so, and make it worth the wait!!

 

[Livewings]

Maybe Apple will hold a Pro event within 2 months? Announcing updated MBP's, availability and configurations of the new Mac Pro and updates to Logic, Final Cut and Aperture.

Nope, too soon. September or October would be the perfect timing.

 

[jbruce2112]

How am I wrong...? What the hell are you even trying to say?
Please tell me why would you want to spend tons of money for extra 200mbps you won't even use.

You're wrong because you said that they wouldn't be much faster, and they are. By a lot.

And you're not paying any more for it in the 2013 vs 2012 models.

I think these are pretty good reasons to wait for a PCIe SSD.

 

[InfinitiG]

If they are waiting with the Pro´s launch until the fall.
I have a strong feeling its not just a CPU, GPU, WiFi and SSD spec bump we are going to see.
The only reason except Mavericks to wait until fall for a launch, is a bigger upgrade then that. They have released hardware before with out waiting for the new OS. So loosing 3-4 months of sales and loosing market shares to Pc's
during the start of the school year sales would not be good. The BTS sales is among the biggest cash flow increases of the year for the PC/Mac market.

Also if they choose to release the MBP during fall it puts more of a financial strain on their fan base then they would find optimal.
A more spread out release schedule is better in terms of sales.
So that can only be justified if there is a bigger upgrade coming.
Or if they plan a separate OSX event.
Cos releasing the MBP, PRO, Mavericks, iPhone, iPad, iPad mini and iOS 7 in one event is going to be much of a strain on most and they will loose the big sales numbers they could achieve if they spread it out just a bit more.


I have a feeling we are going to see more then just a spec bump. A bump in resolution or a move to IGZO feels very likely.
Or a form factor change.
].

this is a possibility. I think they will be released with mavericks end of august/early sept

 

[Livewings]

this is a possibility. I think they will be released with mavericks end of august/early sept

I have a suspicion there will be two more Apple keynotes for the rest of the year. One dedicated to Pros and one dedicated for iOS devices.

Here is my current prediction for the MacBook Pro with Retina display refresh.

1. Better CPU's with vastly better integrated GPU's
2. DEDICATED GPU'S WILL STAY. shut up conspiracists and deal with it.
3. A better screen. IGZO or 3360 x 2100 or even both is a possibility.
4. Thunderbolt 2 will be a definite upgrade.
5. Faster storage, even faster than MB Air, might even be equivalent to Mac Pro
6. Substantial battery life increase due to IGZO, Haswell, more dependency on integrated GPUs etc.
7. Wireless AC no question.
8. Slimmer body WILL NOT happen.

Overall, I expect 80% of the things I mentioned above to happen. It's a huge upgrade and worth the wait.

 

[johnnyturbouk]

I have a suspicion there will be two more Apple keynotes for the rest of the year. One dedicated to Pros and one dedicated for iOS devices.

Here is my current prediction for the MacBook Pro with Retina display refresh.

1. Better CPU's with vastly better integrated GPU's
2. DEDICATED GPU'S WILL STAY. shut up conspiracists and deal with it.
3. A better screen. IGZO or 3360 x 2100 or even both is a possibility.
4. Thunderbolt 2 will be a definite upgrade.
5. Faster storage, even faster than MB Air, might even be equivalent to Mac Pro
6. Substantial battery life increase due to IGZO, Haswell, more dependency on integrated GPUs etc.
7. Wireless AC no question.
8. Slimmer body WILL NOT happen.

Overall, I expect 80% of the things I mentioned above to happen. It's a huge upgrade and worth the wait.

4k igzo
1gb/s ssd pci-e x3.