Waiting for the 2018 MBP

[Populus]

Further ones will be announced with GT3 graphics. Most likely these ones will go in the MBP

This. The MBP will be refreshed when quad cores with GT3e graphics come along. When will they? Most likely next year, in time for a spring or summer refresh (personally thinking summer).

That's pretty much all there is to it.

I think we don't realise that we are, at least in my case, talking about the MacBook Pro without touchbar, and it's a 15W CPU, right?

We are missing the point of thermal performance. The current 15W microprocessor almost don't suffer from thermal throttling, even with one -noisy- fan. Yes it throttles from 3.6GHz to 3.5GHz but that's not very significant.

But if you put in the same die two more cores, with the same GT3e, thermally there's is no room for such 4+3 configuration at 14+ nm.

I think that won't be possible until a new architecture is released. And we still don't know the release date of Coffee Lake, let alone Cannonlake...

 

[0990848]

Actually I doubt it will be that far away. For one thing competitors like Dell XPS already moving to quad core. For another I doubt the other chips are that far behind.

1) Apple just refreshed the MBP line in June
2) Currently, the chips Apple is looking for are not available (having GT3e GPU)
3) If Apple did decide to update their MBP lineup again, it would have to be by late October (like last year). I don't see these chips being made available by then or even late November for that matter

Hence, imo, there won't be another MBP refresh this year. At the earliest spring but I personally think WWDC 2018.

But if you put in the same die two more cores, with the same GT3e, thermally there's is no room for such 4+3 configuration at 14+ nm.

I think that won't be possible until a new architecture is released. And we still don't know the release date of Coffee Lake, let alone Cannonlake...

Which is why Apple is going to go straight to CFL or CNL CPUs for their MBP refresh next year. There will be some skew that has quad core with GT3e at a TDP appropriate for the chassis which are the ones that Apple will put in.

 

[The Mercurian]

1) Apple just refreshed the MBP line in June
2) Currently, the chips Apple is looking for are not available (having GT3e GPU)
3) If Apple did decide to update their MBP lineup again, it would have to be by late October (like last year). I don't see these chips being made available by then or even late November for that matter

Hence, imo, there won't be another MBP refresh this year. At the earliest spring but I personally think WWDC 2018.

<SNIP>

1. Update in June is irrelevant. For one thing since when do Apple care about such things, for another - they simply cannot ignore competitors offering quad core chips.
2. Yeah....maybe. I don't think intel will necessarily announce GT3e chips available - maybe Apple already have them. for another maybe there are other graphics efficiencies in Kaby Lake R that we don't know about. Apple never make their choices in chips based on meeting customer expectations
3. I'd be amazed if they weren't. The GT2 ones are already out. What would be the hold up?

I expect otherwise. Simple market forces dictate are they cannot ignore their main competitors shipping quad core machines for 6 to 9 months ahead of them.

Edit: Also the Dell XPS 13" is available with Kaby Lake R in quad core. Those things have 4k screens do they not ? How does Dell make it work ?

Also - benchmarks do show improved GPU: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel...aby-Lake-performance-comparison.244318.0.html

 

[ls1dreams]

1) Apple just refreshed the MBP line in June
2) Currently, the chips Apple is looking for are not available (having GT3e GPU)
3) If Apple did decide to update their MBP lineup again, it would have to be by late October (like last year). I don't see these chips being made available by then or even late November for that matter

Hence, imo, there won't be another MBP refresh this year. At the earliest spring but I personally think WWDC 2018.



Which is why Apple is going to go straight to CFL or CNL CPUs for their MBP refresh next year. There will be some skew that has quad core with GT3e at a TDP appropriate for the chassis which are the ones that Apple will put in.

I think this is a very likely scenario unfortunately! Probably just another fall release with cannon lake chips assuming it makes it (10nm quad core + iris graphics)

 

[0990848]

I expect otherwise.

Maybe it'll be some silent update via the online store but I doubt it. We'll just have to wait and see I guess

 

[benface]

There's absolutely NO WAY Apple will refresh the MacBook Pro's again this year. The last refresh was exceptionally early at 220 days after the previous one, with the average being 300 days (source: https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro). And you think there's a chance of another refresh less than 180 days, let alone 120 days (if October) later? Sorry but it makes way more sense for them to stick to their regular schedule, with a refresh in March 2018 (270 days later). June 2018 is also possible if they want to start doing yearly refreshes.

 

[Nik]

There is no indication of 640 equivalent graphics being available for the 13" CPUs, let alone any new H-Series CPUs for the 15". The speculation in here is just unfounded. Updates have to be out until the end of September in order for it to be relevant for the holiday shopping season. Everything that is not out by then will not be out until 2018.

 

[ls1dreams]

There is no indication of 640 equivalent graphics being available for the 13" CPUs, let alone any new H-Series CPUs for the 15". The speculation in here is just unfounded. Updates have to be out until the end of September in order for it to be relevant for the holiday shopping season. Everything that is not out by then will not be out until 2018.

Ha, do you really think intel isn't going to update a top tier quad core chip to have better graphics?

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...ocessors-and-chipsets/platform-codenames.html

They already show coffee lake refresh H and Q chips ready for pre-release here.

 

[Non-Polar]

I'm in a predicament. Will the performance from the dual core 15W chip to quad core be more significant than previous releases/iterations? I'm OK with my MacBook Air 2015 (i5), but I can definitely see it slightly chugging here and there with what I'm doing.

 

[Falhófnir]

I'm in a predicament. Will the performance from the dual core 15W chip to quad core be more significant than previous releases/iterations? I'm OK with my MacBook Air 2015 (i5), but I can definitely see it slightly chugging here and there with what I'm doing.

With it being 3 gens worth of improvements it will be notably faster, probably 2+ times as fast as the broadwell in the MBA in fact. The question is would that be enough to warrant a new machine for you?

 

[Non-Polar]

With it being 3 gens worth of improvements it will be notably faster, probably 2+ times as fast as the broadwell in the MBA in fact. The question is would that be enough to warrant a new machine for you?

I should've worded the question differently - I'm looking to upgrade. I'm looking at either the 2017 model or thinking of waiting for the next one with the 4 cores. However, I'm not sure how long the wait would be for Iris Pro to be implemented on the CPU, and if Apple would even bump up the nTB MBP to 4 cores, than just the TB model.

 

[Nik]

Ha, do you really think intel isn't going to update a top tier quad core chip to have better graphics?

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...ocessors-and-chipsets/platform-codenames.html

They already show coffee lake refresh H and Q chips ready for pre-release here.

My comment is to be read in the context of new macbooks coming in 2017.

 

[The Mercurian]

I should've worded the question differently - I'm looking to upgrade. I'm looking at either the 2017 model or thinking of waiting for the next one with the 4 cores. However, I'm not sure how long the wait would be for Iris Pro to be implemented on the CPU, and if Apple would even bump up the nTB MBP to 4 cores, than just the TB model.

The answer to this, regardless of spec updates, is always: if you can wait to upgrade, then wait. If you cannot (i.e. your current machine no longer fulfils its function), then don't wait. Personally I think it that if you have the option to wait, then it would be madness to buy a current dual core machine, when the quad-cores are around the corner.

 

[lhughey]

I AM WITH YOU and YOU are with Me.

2018 MBP Touch Bar. This is Simple

120Hz Display Similar to what the new iPad Pro Got
HDR Display again Similar to what the iPad Pro Got yesterday
both of these Display Improvements should be inline for the MacBook Pro
DDR4 RAM of course
Coffee Lake not Kaby Lake with DDR3 RAM makes no sense.
10-Bit support HDMI 2.1 HDR out.

I really need to have a 32GB for development, particularly for VMs.

 

[Populus]

Does this give you any glimpse of incoming 2018 MacBook pros?

http://wccftech.com/intel-coffee-lake-300-series-z370-z390-chipset-leak/

Does that z390 chipset refers to 10nm cannonlake microprocessors in 2018? Thank you.

 

[Falhófnir]

I should've worded the question differently - I'm looking to upgrade. I'm looking at either the 2017 model or thinking of waiting for the next one with the 4 cores. However, I'm not sure how long the wait would be for Iris Pro to be implemented on the CPU, and if Apple would even bump up the nTB MBP to 4 cores, than just the TB model.

Can't say for certain, but best guess is Apple will want to keep the line relatively current, they're charging absolute top dollar for it now unlike early/mid '15 through late '16. I'd honestly say look to a new model in spring, really don't see any refreshes to MacBooks beyond perhaps a new top and bottom end 15" pro (top to add 32GB ram, bottom to replace the ageing 2015 model) coming this year.

That's a consideration too, they might keep the ntb as a dual to further differentiate it from the tb, I can see it eventually either morphing into or being replaced by a larger 'macbook', but think it will be once they can fit 15W cpus into a fanless design (we aren't far off of that now, Microsoft has already done it with the i5 version of the surface pro (yes it's definitely a U series, not 4.5W Y series))

 

[chleuasme]

once they can fit 15W cpus into a fanless design (we aren't far off of that now, Microsoft has already done it with the i5 version of the surface pro (yes it's definitely a U series, not 4.5W Y series))

No, every Surface Pro models based on 15W U-Series intel chips have fans, and that's exactly because non-idle 15W chips generate lots of heat to dissipate in compact enclosures.
The last models are considered much less noisy though.

If intended usages don't necessitate sustained CPU activities but only peaks, then Y-Series are the best choice probably for designing a laptop, and then fanless is the benefit. That laptop from Apple does exist, it's the rMB12.

 

[Falhófnir]

No, every Surface Pro models based on 15W U-Series intel chips have fans, and that's exactly because non-idle 15W chips generate lots of heat to dissipate in compact enclosures.
The last models are considered much less noisy though.

If intended usages don't necessitate sustained CPU activities but only peaks, then Y-Series are the best choice probably for designing a laptop, and then fanless is the benefit. That laptop from Apple does exist, it's the rMB12.

Well then you'd best write to all these tech sites and tell them they're wrong:
https://www.windowscentral.com/new-surface-pro-fanless-core-i5-serious-cpu
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11538/the-microsoft-surface-pro-2017-review-evolution/4
https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/15/...surface-pro-2017-review-laptop-tablet-windows

 

[Nik]

"Coffee lake units are meant for this year but delayed."
"It was meant to be late this year but this project has been delayed due to supply chain issues."

Info straight from the confirmed insider who also predicted the HomePod and design specs of the new iPhone. We have to wait for early 2018 guys.

 

[chleuasme]

Well then you'd best write to all these tech sites and tell them they're wrong:

I indeed missed the info. Thank you.

It's no surprise then that Microsoft has opted to keep the fan on the Core i7 model, since the extra graphics can quickly eat up the available TDP, but we did clarify with them that the Core i5 model is still running at the full 15-Watt TDP of the i5-7300U, and hasn't been intentionally set to a lower TDP via cTDP functionality. Hopefully we’ll have a chance to test that at a later date and see how the lack of active cooling impacts it.

I was going by the same anandtech article:

the Surface Pro is […] only ramping up the noise level a few dB when the fans turn on

So that's only for the 15W i7 model.

Microsoft choice of low-end HD graphics for the i5 model allowed to achieve this apparently. I really wonder how this model reacts under load, 15W TDP still means a lot of heat, or intel doesn't properly badge its products.
I read Microsoft claims, but seeing the i5-7300U can go down to 7.5W while the i5-7360U found in the non-TB rMBP13 only to 9.5W, says Apple would have to abandon Iris graphics and CPU power to achieve it too I suppose: Apple didn't put a fan in the non-TB rMBP13 only as an habit. Of course 10 nm / 14nm++ should change that, with higher performances at lower TDPs.

edit: yeah, not so good an idea to go fanless with a 15W TDP chip: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Micro...7300U-256-GB-Convertible-Review.230716.0.html
Better wait for intel to offer performances comparable to current 15W TDP chips (and then needing a fan) to lower TDP as process node improves.

 

[Falhófnir]

I indeed missed the info. Thank you.

I was going by the same anandtech article:

So that's only for the 15W i7 model.

Microsoft choice of low-end HD graphics for the i5 model allowed to achieve this apparently. I really wonder how this model reacts under load, 15W TDP still means a lot of heat, or intel doesn't properly badge its products.
I read Microsoft claims, but seeing the i5-7300U can go down to 7.5W while the i5-7360U found in the non-TB rMBP13 only to 9.5W, says Apple would have to abandon Iris graphics and CPU power to achieve it too I suppose: Apple didn't put a fan in the non-TB rMBP13 only as an habit. Of course 10 nm / 14nm++ should change that, with higher performances at lower TDPs.

Eh it's probably easy to miss considering intel's [unnecessary] rebranding of M5 and M7 to i5 and i7. Apparently that was the really big 'thing' about Kaby Lake over Cannonlake, cooler running and therefore able to sustain higher clock speeds for longer, as you say by the time we reach 10nm I'd guess either fans will be officially optional for 15W U series chips (used only if a manufacturer wants to eke out a little extra performance under load) - or else they will use all the extra headroom to play with quad core designs and more powerful graphics. Quite possibly a little of both if they are keeping dual core options alongside the new quads. Whether Apple will embrace this for, perhaps a 14" MacBook to replace the ntb pro (and reduce the price of the TB model with the extra thermal headroom) remains to be seen...

 

[chleuasme]

Apparently that was the really big 'thing' about Kaby Lake over Cannonlake, cooler running and therefore able to sustain higher clock speeds for longer, as you say by the time we reach 10nm I'd guess either fans will be officially optional for 15W U series chips (used only if a manufacturer wants to eke out a little extra performance under load) - or else they will use all the extra headroom to play with quad core designs and more powerful graphics.

In this case, intel would better break up in two the category, creating one sub-10W for fanless designs and a second one around 20W for CPU+iGPU performances. But well, they already have the Y and U series for this: performances will move down to lower TDPs with small process nodes, MS experiments are just too early for the available tech in 2017.

Whether Apple will embrace this for, perhaps a 14" MacBook to replace the ntb pro (and reduce the price of the TB model with the extra thermal headroom) remains to be seen...

Yeah I'm not sure Apple is up for that, they still have big plans for the iPad (Pro) and the MB Air is only here to occupy the low price point in the interim. I don't think Apple is leaning toward an iBook/Powerbook -like dual lineup for its macOS laptops. I could rather imagine them leaning toward a gradual laptop line, following intel's Y/U/H categories of chips and performances (and not very different to now, only simplified).

Given Apple already switched all its retina laptops to emulated higher base resolutions, I suppose they are waiting for intel to take advantage of the gains in power in their chips for the next generation to switch to higher resolution screens and then why not size too playing with bezels a bit (say randomly to 3072x1920, 3584x2240, resp. 4096x2560, all at ~300 ppi). But with close to two times more pixels to handle in each model in this case, if the 12" model can remain fanless on Y-Series, the 14" would still need capable quad+iGPU U-Series chips and then fans, and then the 16" would get quad+iGPU or optional hexa+dGPU H-Series (call this last one Pro, as for the coming iMac line, and every others only "Macbook").

If not everyone need power, they'd better continue to expand iPad software capabilities to push more users to iOS (while they continue to improve their Ax chips), and leave macOS and the Mac still capable to handle demanding tasks, rather than seek the fanless graal everywhere, trading power on the Mac to achieve it. Microsoft don't have the luxury of having two OSes/platforms, and intel can't do magic (last 10 nm generation or 7 nm could bring us there, but it's far far away).

 

[Uni Grad]

So with all this talk about the new iPhone, I think the new MBPs might gain the following features over the next few years:

-OLED screen (after the iPad, MBP is usually next or will they just hold out until microLED)
-Face ID (honestly this would work better perfectly on a laptop, the minute you lift the lid, BAM, logged in)
-Wireless charging (then all other USB C ports will only be used for data transfer - would really help MacBook users)

Let me know when you guys think we'll have these features by?

 

[Non-Polar]

Lol you're crazy if you're thinking all of those feature will come at once. Wireless charging? Really? I can't see Face ID either, as Apple is already trying to push touch bar, and it's still using 720p webcams.

 

[Falhófnir]

So with all this talk about the new iPhone, I think the new MBPs might gain the following features over the next few years:

-OLED screen (after the iPad, MBP is usually next or will they just hold out until microLED)
-Face ID (honestly this would work better perfectly on a laptop, the minute you lift the lid, BAM, logged in)
-Wireless charging (then all other USB C ports will only be used for data transfer - would really help MacBook users)

Let me know when you guys think we'll have these features by?

Face ID, could quite easily be the next revision to the current design (2018) if the tech fits at the top of the screen. It's a relatively easy new selling point and would allow them to go head to head with Microsoft hello.

Wireless charging - honestly never, unless you count a snap-on magnetic puck that is in effect MagSafe born again... maybe that might come with the next design refresh. I guess they'd keep the power pass through of USB C also so you can use power packs on the go too.

OLED - probably highly unlikely until the next design refresh - if then. With ppi in the low 200s pentile would look awful so probably would require them to go higher on screen resolution, or find a way of making RGB stripe work.