Again more assumptions based on nothing.
Not really. GB4 isn’t distorting anything. It’s what people want to interpret out of GB4 what can be said to be distorted.
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Waiting for the 2019 MBP [Merged]
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Again more assumptions based on nothing.
Not really. GB4 isn’t distorting anything. It’s what people want to interpret out of GB4 what can be said to be distorted.
Then you won’t be upgrading. Probably not ever. If you wait for the 13 to get to your desired specs, then there will be new specs you desire which won’t be available. Can’t ever catch that carrot.
What could possibly 2019 bring?
2018 was a major step, 13” doubled their core counts and 15” got 30% more.
Too early for redesign too.
Might as well rename the thread “waiting for 2020”.
My strategy now will be: buy cheaper, update more often.
Instead of buying a 5k computer for 6y i’ll buy a 2,5k for 3y.
i9 and vega cost 650$ more, storage even worse.
In 2y tech will go up and entry level will probably smoke the top-end.
2018 was a major step, 13” doubled their core counts and 15” got 30% more.
Too early for redesign too.
Might as well rename the thread “waiting for 2020”.
My strategy now will be: buy cheaper, update more often.
Instead of buying a 5k computer for 6y i’ll buy a 2,5k for 3y.
i9 and vega cost 650$ more, storage even worse.
In 2y tech will go up and entry level will probably smoke the top-end.
Depends - Kaby Lake was actually quite a decent upgrade from Skylake, running cooler and eking out a bit of extra power. With the Coffee lake chips definitely being inspired by the Mc Cafe drink (
) that could be quite a boon. Other possible upgrades would be a Promotion display, storage tier bumps to finally get rid of the 128GB option on the 13" and the 256 on the 15", and a stock option offering a Vega GPU. All are unlikely but not impossible. If they really wanted to, Apple could make the 2019 machines quite a nice little upgrade, which would be especially good if they plan on phasing in the 2020 pros from the top end as they did in 2012 and (kind of) in 2016 and the 2019 stays with us until ~2021 as the entry offering.Personally I don't think I'll commit to anything until the rumours start solidifying around exactly what the 2020 will be - probably in around a year from now if it's going to be a June 2020 release.
If Apple go AMD for the last release of this cycle? Unlikely but I guess not impossible if the chips deliver over Intel's. Unless they've been feigning 10nm woes as a distraction while secretly working on 7 I don't think Intel will be releasing anything of the sort imminently (which is when they'd have to release to be a realistic option for the June 2019 pro).
i dont think so.
historically, 2010 dual to 2011 quad transition happened on the same 32nm process. (but 2011 didn't overheat).
dye shrink will just bring the hexacores to their potential, but not really a revolutionary better macbook.
except if they do AMD (which seems is what you're insinuating with 7nm)
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that's just it: a bit extra power.Depends - Kaby Lake was actually quite a decent upgrade from Skylake, running cooler and eking out a bit of extra power. With the Coffee lake chips definitely being inspired by the Mc Cafe drink (
Personally I don't think I'll commit to anything until the rumours start solidifying around exactly what the 2020 will be - probably in around a year from now if it's going to be a June 2020 release.
2011 15" unibody non-retina pulled 11,5k on geekbench
2017 15" rMBP pulled 16k on a good day
2018 15" i9 pulls 22,5k
They gained roughly 1k score per year since 2011, and then the big push happened this year. 13" are actually more powerful than last years 15".
10nm hexacores will be what 14nm 2018 should have been from the start.
I was talking about general technology on 7 nm bringing new performance horizons, not Apple in particular.
But yes. If Apple will stick to Intel, they will fall behind every competitor that will use AMD hardware...
Is it just me or would anyone else love a 2019 MBP that's exactly like the 2015 model, only faster and with TB3 ports instead of TB2 (extra credit for a user-replaceable battery)? I'm just so fed up with the current state of Apple's laptop line. From the fault-prone, noisy keyboard with shallow key travel and worse layout to the lack of port variety, the oversized touchpad, lack of Magsafe, soldered SSD, flimsy build, annoying Touch Bar that can't be operated by feel, and more – there's just tons of disappointments that would keep me from upgrading. I want to go back to when I used to love everything about MacBook Pros. :/
Oh, don't forget that we're paying much more (for less) now.
Oh, don't forget that we're paying much more (for less) now.
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I would. It's why I tracked down a new 2015 last week and bought it. Overpriced at $1749 for a 3.5 year old base machine? Debatable, but seeing people shell out thousands for 2017/2018 models trying to blindly pretend that those machines don't have issues, or that the keyboard is fixed when it so clearly isn't, suddenly makes it seem a lot more sensible. My machine is set up on the desk, working well, and I'm not worried that a T2 KP or stuck keys might rear their ugly head at anytime. To me it's sheer madness to be paying 3, 4, $5k for a machine that everyone knows has major hardware defects from day one.
Could staingate happen? Maybe, but Apple never fixed that and all models through 2017 are on that repair program, and soon enough 2018 will be too, just like it'll end up on the keyboard program. Difference with staingate is I can go upstairs, physically look at it, and de facto verify that the screen is fine. Furthermore, whether staingate becomes an issue is entirely in my control with how I care for the screen and/or whether or not I touch it. Different story with the keyboard or T2 issues. My wife has a 2013 with a still flawless screen, so I don't have reason to believe it'll be a problem on mine given the same care regimen.
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Your far from being alone, never seen so many drop the Mac for professional use since the introduction of the current MBP. Apple's direction is beyond disappointing. Personally as can work in Windows just as effectively I'm voting with my wallet.
Mac is fast becoming just a fashionable toy rather than solid a workhorse recognised for reliability & stability. Anyway I'm out as I don't see Tim & Co changing their strategy of IOS devices being the future of computing with Apple. Even if Mac sales bomb, Apple will continue as they have plenty of revenue from IOS devices and Tim Cook's position on the personal computer versus the iPad is abundantly clear....
Q-6
I get that. The problem is that I really don’t like using Windows and still have a fondness for MacOS and how it fits into my workflow. Otherwise I’d soon be right there with you.
As it stands, I’m looking forward to the hardware side of things hopefully improving somewhat in 2019 or 2020. Realistically, I can’t see myself switching to Windows in the foreseeable future. Probably more likely I’d reluctantly end up using some variant of Linux at some point if Apple decides to stick a fork in the Mac. That’s quite a depressing thought though.
Microsoft is moving in the right direction for creatives/professionals I think, while macOS seems somewhat stagnant (Mojave is meh). It will be interesting to see how Apple, Google and Microsoft focus their offerings in the coming years.
I like mac for the unix-type command line since most of my work is there. Recently, I installed win10+wsl(ubuntu) on a Dell AIO 7775 since we couldnt get Linux to be stable on this. I must say win10+wsl looks really good for my use case. I think of win10 as the window manager and wsl gives me the terminal with Linux. While I have a new MBP2018 (dont like keyboard, hate touchbar), I am quite happy to switch to win10+wsl during my next purchase if apple does not fix all the things wrong with their post-2016 MBPs.
I think there is a lack of understanding with how Intel's 10nm is being compared to TSMC and AMD/Global Foundries 7nm and that 7nm is simply > 10nm. This Quora sums it best about the whole process node and marketing behind it:
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Intel-stuck-at-14nm-and-behind-in-10nm-though-GloFlo-is-readying-7nm-technology-for-Ryzen
A few noteworthy points from the Quora:
"The short answer is that the ‘7nm’ marketing label is not representing the same thing that Intel’s ‘10nm’ name is - the physical size of the transistors is very likely in the same range and the actual difference is the degree to which the company marketing groups are willing to twist naming conventions. Global Foundries (GF) recent press campaign is saying that they’re ahead of Intel, when in reality the new ‘7nm’ node is exactly what Intel is currently calling ‘10nm’ in terms of transistor size."
and
"What we actually see is that the names chosen by Intel and GF to represent processes that are very similar in size are being picked for different reasons (Intel based on a scale from previous sizes, GF based on the minimum feature size of gate width), and unfortunately the marketing done by both groups is resulting in Intel looking like they’re coming out behind when really they’re pretty much even"
Really no complains about the 2016+ MBPs. I love mechanical keyboards, the new keyboard is excellent. If they'd offer an external version, I'd happily replace all my mechanical keyboards. Never had an issue with it, but I'm also not eating with a MBP catching all the crumbs. I'm using it on tables and keep my working environment clean. Trackpad size is excellent as well. I guess it's like phones... getting bigger. I did hold on to my old "small" iPhones until I tried a larger one. I'm on X/Xs size now and the next one will probably be a Max. Lack of MagSafe is a bummer, but USB-C has tons of advantages. Whenever I'm in the office I just use one cable to dock it... USB, TB3, ethernet, display and charging with a single cable. Never had an issue with ports. Doesn't really matter if I use USB-A to Lighting, HDMI or whatever or USB-C to whatever I need. Just buy the proper cable to begin with. Touchbar is excellent, it saves me hours and hours with proper shortcuts. Adding highlights in Keynote alone would be a reason to buy it for me. Hopefully one day Apple will release an external keyboard with touchbar included, I'd be first in line. Don't really care about soldered SSD (or socketed for that matter), just buy what you need and if in doubt, get the bigger one. Got the feeling alot of people just complain about the price and that's how they have to convince themselves and others that it's a bad machine.
Windows... no thanks. Still not there, by far. Recently set up a Win10 system for our motion capture system... what a nightmare. Ethernet doesn't work after installation, neither does WiFi... how do I install the drivers if I can't connect to the internet? Sure DVD, welcome to 1999.
After that, hours of drivers installation and configuration, .Net versions and so on... at that point 500k for a Vicon system seems like a really good deal over any manufacturer that only offers Windows support.
We had the amazing idea to recommend WSL to our students this semester to work on swarm intelligence for autonomous drones. Huge mistake. Took endless hours to get everything installed and configured and then not everything worked, because it isn't a full Linux system. Those with macOS and Linux had everything up and running in 10 minutes. Those with Windows are now running VMs with Ubuntu. It's almost like a bad joke... two computer scientists, a mathematician and their students walk into the university... don't get me wrong, we are a MS university, most or our labs are Windows based, so are some of the exams. We get the MS stuff for free, the only time I use it for training AI in games when macOS/Linux isn't available such as driving in GTA and Rocket League, which relies on DLL injection. In the end, a $4k or $5k MBP isn't such a bad machine if it get's the job done.
Windows... no thanks. Still not there, by far. Recently set up a Win10 system for our motion capture system... what a nightmare. Ethernet doesn't work after installation, neither does WiFi... how do I install the drivers if I can't connect to the internet? Sure DVD, welcome to 1999.
After that, hours of drivers installation and configuration, .Net versions and so on... at that point 500k for a Vicon system seems like a really good deal over any manufacturer that only offers Windows support.
We had the amazing idea to recommend WSL to our students this semester to work on swarm intelligence for autonomous drones. Huge mistake. Took endless hours to get everything installed and configured and then not everything worked, because it isn't a full Linux system. Those with macOS and Linux had everything up and running in 10 minutes. Those with Windows are now running VMs with Ubuntu. It's almost like a bad joke... two computer scientists, a mathematician and their students walk into the university... don't get me wrong, we are a MS university, most or our labs are Windows based, so are some of the exams. We get the MS stuff for free, the only time I use it for training AI in games when macOS/Linux isn't available such as driving in GTA and Rocket League, which relies on DLL injection. In the end, a $4k or $5k MBP isn't such a bad machine if it get's the job done.
Instead of building your own computer, you should've bought complete Windows system, that have had all the drivers loaded already...Windows... no thanks. Still not there, by far. Recently set up a Win10 system for our motion capture system... what a nightmare. Ethernet doesn't work after installation, neither does WiFi... how do I install the drivers if I can't connect to the internet? Sure DVD, welcome to 1999.
After that, hours of drivers installation and configuration, .Net versions and so on... at that point 500k for a Vicon system seems like a really good deal over any manufacturer that only offers Windows support.
Why haven't you guys installed Linux Natively on different partition?
System already existed, simply added another SSD for dual boot. Works perfectly in Ubuntu, can't see why it shouldn't in Windows. It's not some exotic hardware either.
Because students usually work on their own laptop if they're not in the lab, we can't force them to partition their disks or free up space for it. After all the trouble we thought about buying some USB sticks, pre-install Ubuntu and give those to the students for a semester. That way they can dual-boot, don't have to change anything and if they screw something up, we can overwrite the USB sticks with our image.
Having used both usually simultaneously (MS for work and home, macOS for home), I completely agree that MS seems to take some set up.
If I buy a MBP, I go home, turn it up, start using it / install apps as I need.
If I buy a Windows laptop, I may have to do a fresh install, then manually update individual drivers/find the correct ones. There may be some BIOS tweaking done, some people also employ some undervolting via Throttlestop/XTU. There is more fiddling perhaps with power options etcs and then finally you are ready to install your apps and go. If you get some of the initial steps wrong, you may find you have issues which could even lead to BSOD's or lower performance/bugs.
Once Windows is set up however, the customisability/software is pretty useful. Although macOS is prettier, Windows I prefer in terms of window management and if you haven't used it recently, you actually have the same command centre swipe gestures/keyboard shortcuts as macOS and even multiple desktops which I can just switch between using a keyboard shortcut (or set up a gesture). Basically, you can be very productive on Windows and I think Windows just plays nicer with peripherals. Endless nightmare with MacBooks (just read upon them) - even annoyances such as my MacBook not being able to control my monitors speakers (or other systems) without doing some changes. I actually don't think the MacBook trackpad is 10x better as everyone says, it might be better but it isn't that kind of difference. I do however find the gesture experience is a lot better on Safari vs Edge or Chrome but that isn't to do with the trackpad as it is to do with the browser software.
If you use a lot of MS Office, especially the advanced features, Window's just works better - it has more powerful feature set for Windows, especially for One Note (which having used pretty much all of the major note taking apps, don't come close to this). If you want to use Visual Studio (arguably the best IDE) or C# (arguably one of the better PL), the experience on macOS using these is just isn't the same. The advantage of course for Mac is you have the choice to use VM to run Windows.
The last difference I'd like to mention is cost, not of the machines but the OS. I rarely find myself spending any money using Windows, but I noticed on maCOS, I end up having to buy all sorts of software equivalents of Windows at a price. I am not saying the products aren't worth the price, rather just an FYI that there is additional costs. Particularly so if you want to VM (annual licences only) - yes you can use Virtual Box but the experience is a lot worse.
I think for development, people treat Window's like it is some disease, it isn't that bad - and yes some things are easier on macOS, but if you guys take notice of what those things that are apparently easier are - are things you do once and rarely ever again. Once things are setup and you get the workflows up, there is very little difference in productivity between the two.
Usually I would have said buy a MacBook and just load up Windows on parallels for your needs - but the hardware has been lacking due to the touchbar, keyboard and now the T2 chip. It is hard to recommend paying a premium for a product which has some fundamental flaws and also an OS which, isn't evolving much like Windows 10 has. The phone integration is pretty much overrated and you can get pretty good integration anyway on Windows 10. I think however, it is better to separate the two devices (PC and mobile phones) because it is better for productivity.
I have noticed quite a few people leaving macOS in the dev community, many to Linux altogether, some to Windows. I don't think this would have happened if the 2016-2018 MacBook's were basically 2015 MacBook's with upgraded internals - in fact I am pretty certain this wouldn't have happened.
The good news is, there is no way Apple won't do something about it in the next couple of years, but I could be wrong...
If I buy a MBP, I go home, turn it up, start using it / install apps as I need.
If I buy a Windows laptop, I may have to do a fresh install, then manually update individual drivers/find the correct ones. There may be some BIOS tweaking done, some people also employ some undervolting via Throttlestop/XTU. There is more fiddling perhaps with power options etcs and then finally you are ready to install your apps and go. If you get some of the initial steps wrong, you may find you have issues which could even lead to BSOD's or lower performance/bugs.
Once Windows is set up however, the customisability/software is pretty useful. Although macOS is prettier, Windows I prefer in terms of window management and if you haven't used it recently, you actually have the same command centre swipe gestures/keyboard shortcuts as macOS and even multiple desktops which I can just switch between using a keyboard shortcut (or set up a gesture). Basically, you can be very productive on Windows and I think Windows just plays nicer with peripherals. Endless nightmare with MacBooks (just read upon them) - even annoyances such as my MacBook not being able to control my monitors speakers (or other systems) without doing some changes. I actually don't think the MacBook trackpad is 10x better as everyone says, it might be better but it isn't that kind of difference. I do however find the gesture experience is a lot better on Safari vs Edge or Chrome but that isn't to do with the trackpad as it is to do with the browser software.
If you use a lot of MS Office, especially the advanced features, Window's just works better - it has more powerful feature set for Windows, especially for One Note (which having used pretty much all of the major note taking apps, don't come close to this). If you want to use Visual Studio (arguably the best IDE) or C# (arguably one of the better PL), the experience on macOS using these is just isn't the same. The advantage of course for Mac is you have the choice to use VM to run Windows.
The last difference I'd like to mention is cost, not of the machines but the OS. I rarely find myself spending any money using Windows, but I noticed on maCOS, I end up having to buy all sorts of software equivalents of Windows at a price. I am not saying the products aren't worth the price, rather just an FYI that there is additional costs. Particularly so if you want to VM (annual licences only) - yes you can use Virtual Box but the experience is a lot worse.
I think for development, people treat Window's like it is some disease, it isn't that bad - and yes some things are easier on macOS, but if you guys take notice of what those things that are apparently easier are - are things you do once and rarely ever again. Once things are setup and you get the workflows up, there is very little difference in productivity between the two.
Usually I would have said buy a MacBook and just load up Windows on parallels for your needs - but the hardware has been lacking due to the touchbar, keyboard and now the T2 chip. It is hard to recommend paying a premium for a product which has some fundamental flaws and also an OS which, isn't evolving much like Windows 10 has. The phone integration is pretty much overrated and you can get pretty good integration anyway on Windows 10. I think however, it is better to separate the two devices (PC and mobile phones) because it is better for productivity.
I have noticed quite a few people leaving macOS in the dev community, many to Linux altogether, some to Windows. I don't think this would have happened if the 2016-2018 MacBook's were basically 2015 MacBook's with upgraded internals - in fact I am pretty certain this wouldn't have happened.
The good news is, there is no way Apple won't do something about it in the next couple of years, but I could be wrong...
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Unfortunately I don't believe Apple will reverse it's course as it's target audience has changed and Apple clearly has little interest in professional users. Between the hardware & software it's been like this for several years, nor are people who have been compelled to switch platforms going to come running back to Apple in a hurry...
Q-6
I think your cynicism about 2019 is correct. This is the "waiting for Intel to get its act together" thread. We are still on the wrong side of the node transition, and have been for years.
Optimistically, you could see a custom Navi part or some kind of cut-down Turing on the GPU side in late 2019. But it doesn't look like Intel will get 10nm together next year, either. Maybe, maybe there could be a redesign using a 10nm Intel part matched to a 7nm GPU as soon as early 2020.
W10 has come a long way imo. I recently got back into using W10 again and it feels snappier than macOS. Apps launch faster and the overall experience just feels faster. I'm a gamer so using windows over the years has been a natural part of my life. Aesthetics wise, I always thought macOS looked prettier but now I prefer W10 to macOS. macOS is very consistent w/ its UI designs but less appealing w/ overuse of separator lines. I actually like W10's even barer minimal looks now. W10 also boots faster which is also nice.
W10's dark theme is far inferior to macOS and the inconsistencies I find such as having both (control panel, settings), (internet explorer, edge) etc has been sub-par in the overall experience but it's no showstopper. I'm really enjoying the ability to customize far more than I can w/ W10. I felt so "locked in" w/ macOS and I didn't have much freedom and now that I'm back in W10, I feel like a free bird.
I've been a windows user most of my life like many others and having bought my first mac in 2012, a retina mbp 15", which blew me away at that time has turned me over back to windows recently due to increasingly prohibitive costs of newer macs w/ questionable reliability. My 2012 rmbp still works like a champ after 6.5 years of daily abuse. Never had any repairs done and I'm still on my original battery at 90% capacity. The best thing is I only paid 2k CAD for a base model back in 2012. This kind of price, and reliability sound like daydreaming in 2018.
Newer macs are comparably more expensive and they are upgrade-ability unfriendly which is the biggest gripe for me. Pretty much all computer electronics become outdated in a couple of years and I want to be in control of my parts and upgrade them whenever I want to. Thought about buying a spec'd out 2018 mac mini but for the same amount of money, I could have built a similarly spec'd out W10 machine for less. I would have stayed w/ mac if there is any compelling reason but I'm no die-hard apple fan. I just use whichever I like. Macbooks' hardware design is leagues ahead of competitors and quite frankly that is pretty much the only reason I would pay for a mac nowadays. No other competitor designs a laptop as well as apple does.
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An optional TouchBar.
I know, dream on. Possibly a redesigned Dell XPS for me then. I'm going to spit feathers if a proper MBP turns up in 2020 though.