I'm personally a bit more excited to see what Leopard can actually do over it's actual release. Were all moaning about it being delayed, but we don't know all that many huge details about how different it is from Tiger.
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What We Learn From Leopard's Delay
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I'm personally a bit more excited to see what Leopard can actually do over it's actual release. Were all moaning about it being delayed, but we don't know all that many huge details about how different it is from Tiger.
Apple had a big opportunity now with Vista getting bad reviews to grab a lot of marketshare. A lot of people now are thinking about getting a Vista PC since Leopard isn't ready. This is costing Apple money in the short, middle and long-term.
Since they decided to go ahead and do that it means that they expect more sales/money/revenue from the iPhone than from hardware (the two are heavily connected). From that I concluded that OS X is not a big priority anymore because if it had been, and yes I am talking about the distant future too, Apple would have put more emphasis on it.
This only means that after the success with the iPod they see that consumer products have a high return on interest and are shifting their focus. And that, I think, justifies a use of anymore perfectly.
Apple has given no evidence that leopard is/will be their priority again. They stated leopard will be out in october, that doesn't mean it's a priority. Some new iTunes feature could be priority, but that doesn't mean leopard won't come out still. I don't see anywhere where i said i don't believe apple or that it's not a priority, i frankly have no idea and neither does anyone else. I was simply stating that your statement seemed to say the same thing as diatribes.
I've also never said it's good/bad that they shifted focus because frankly it doesn't matter. It is what it is. I would prefer to have the new os over the iphone, but i'm not that concerned either way.
You kind of went off on a tangent about other things in the thread that i never talked about, but just for reference ( since you brought up software development ) i've been a professional software developer for the last 10 years
Let it be noted that I predict (and have predicted) that Mac OS Leopard will run Windows programs NATIVELY, without any virtualization or boot camp. I believe there is something already being produced, refered to as "WINE", that is attempting this. Perhaps Vista's delay caused the delay of Leopard in that certain features that were worked out need to be changed due to any changes in the final release of Vista...
Well there you go. Why the run around about the word and what you meant?
Anyhow. I really don't think 4 months is any real indication of a shift in focus. I of course mean in a major way.
I think a lot of the fear of this happening comes from the idea that the bigger and more popular Apple gets the more the computer end of the business will suffer. And that is a fear of mine as well.
However, as long as Apple delivers and in a good way it is really a non issue. It seems a lot of people here hold Apple as something very close them (as do I), but along with that comes the "no its mine I don't want to share" mentality.
Everyone who loves Apple products is upset by this news. In the long run it is good I think, I feel that if Apple didn't have the iPod, they may not be around today. I like the iPhone, I think it is great. And hey, maybe the iPhone developers will have some great ideas because of it and use it in Leopard.
It is only 4 months people. Seriously. If they said 08, yeah I would freak out a bit. But really, Tiger is still great and is better than Vista. I don't want a pretty finish with no real enhancements. I want a feature rich OS that has learned from users and fixed their issues.
I realize that those of you who can't see past tomorrow will still be upset, this is not bad news however. If any, it is good. As once the iPhone hits, OS X should be going with full steam and will be better because of it.
Apple has given no evidence that leopard is/will be their priority again. They stated leopard will be out in october, that doesn't mean it's a priority. Some new iTunes feature could be priority, but that doesn't mean leopard won't come out still. I don't see anywhere where i said i don't believe apple or that it's not a priority, i frankly have no idea and neither does anyone else. I was simply stating that your statement seemed to say the same thing as diatribes.
I've also never said it's good/bad that they shifted focus because frankly it doesn't matter. It is what it is. I would prefer to have the new os over the iphone, but i'm not that concerned either way.
You kind of went off on a tangent about other things in the thread that i never talked about, but just for reference ( since you brought up software development ) i've been a professional software developer for the last 10 years
All of my comments were directed at you. It was more about the general idea around the forums now. I just used my response to you to address those instead of posting again.
I think it indicates priority over the iPhone, which is really a duh since the iPhone will be out. I have no idea what Apples to-do-list looks like. What is bugging me is those pretending like they do. I am going based on what Apple says.
iPhone is going to be be big. We want it done since we have advertised that it will be out in June (Leopard hasn't had any commercials stating it will be out). It really just makes sense. I can't question the truth behind the statement, because it would all be speculation.
But consdering iPhone will be out in June and Leopard in October it is pretty obvious that at some point any resources shifted from the OS X team will be heading back to OS X after iPhone is complete, and that could have happened already and upon assessing where they were, it was realized Spring wouldn't happen.
So the argument of the original MR post is that Apple needs 4 months to copy parallels? I enjoy the option of running windows programs if i need to, but shouldn't apple be competing with Vista instead of neglecting development of their own OS in order to integrate with it?
Not buying it. I don't want to trust Apple's PR, especially after reassuring friends that 'Leopard is just around the corner in June at the latest, so just wait until then and you'll have the latest OS for years to come' because of Apple's denial of delay rumors JUST LAST WEEK, but the iphone does seem to be apple's new lover.
The only reason to buy an apple (unless you like paying 15-40% more for the SAME hardware because it's 'prettier') is the OS. Apple makes its profits from hardware because they don't let anyone else use the OS, but now they're not only neglecting their hardware but the underlying OS as well.
I'm sure Apple hasn't given up on computers yet, and I bet Leopard will be a good OS. Nonetheless, even microsoft wouldn't be so stupid as to divert resources from their core business to work on their next zune-ish fluff-gadget.
Tiger works well, and it's still ahead of Vista in most ways, but not by all that much. For 95+% of computer users, Vista is 'good enough', and that should worry Apple.
Tiger is still ahead in some ways, but Vista copied nearly every Tiger feature the average user would notice. You still have the pain of antivirus and spyware/malware, but truthfully most folks would rather spend some time dealing with those problems and spend $600 on a Dell instead of $1200 for a comparable Apple.
Apple needs to realize that as OSs mature, they won't have the 'look at us we're stable and secure' argument anymore. Vista is pretty darn stable I'm afraid, and even XP was fine. My work computer has been on for 3 months straight without a restart (thanks in part to a secure corporate network) with XP and it's fine on this old PIII box, explorer crashed a few times in that stretch but big deal, that took seconds to fix and is no reason to spend more for MacOS.
4 months won't cripple Apple, and it's given me a good excuse to put off the Mac Pro and buy a kayak and Nikon D200, but taken with all the other clues we have today, I hope it's not a sign of things to come.
If MacOS is just another alternative to the windows-dominated computer world, it will fail. Why? IT COSTS MORE WITH FEWER OPTIONS. It needs an advantage; it needs to stay ahead, both in features and in hardware-OS integration. "just working" isn't good enough when any new windows computer does a pretty good job of 'just working' as well.
Apple was doing a pretty good job of getting ahead with faster intel processors and a superior OS while XP lived on forever with 8 billion security patches and got nothing but bad press. Unfortunately the PC world keeps moving along as Apple toils over an ugly little overpriced block of plastic.
I think the iphone will have success, but it will never be mass adopted like the ipod unless it's cheap. Their best hope is probably to follow the RAZR strategy which was 'expensive and exclusive at first, only the coolest of the cool had them, then after a year it'll be free with contract renewal and EVERYONE will get it'. I like the idea of changing the mobile contract-tied market, but please, I have a very nice RAZR in my pocket that I paid nothing for except my $22/mo. slice of a family plan I worked out with my sister and parents who are hours away. in my 2 year contract i'll pay a total of just over $500 for a nice phone with great reception and 5 day battery life and 1/3 of our 800 minutes/mo (plus rollover and n&w of course).
To end my rant, please Apple, give us a hint that you understand MacOS and the related hardware is your very core and essence. Please.
Holy lunchtime rant Batman!!!
Not buying it. I don't want to trust Apple's PR, especially after reassuring friends that 'Leopard is just around the corner in June at the latest, so just wait until then and you'll have the latest OS for years to come' because of Apple's denial of delay rumors JUST LAST WEEK, but the iphone does seem to be apple's new lover.
The only reason to buy an apple (unless you like paying 15-40% more for the SAME hardware because it's 'prettier') is the OS. Apple makes its profits from hardware because they don't let anyone else use the OS, but now they're not only neglecting their hardware but the underlying OS as well.
I'm sure Apple hasn't given up on computers yet, and I bet Leopard will be a good OS. Nonetheless, even microsoft wouldn't be so stupid as to divert resources from their core business to work on their next zune-ish fluff-gadget.
Tiger works well, and it's still ahead of Vista in most ways, but not by all that much. For 95+% of computer users, Vista is 'good enough', and that should worry Apple.
Tiger is still ahead in some ways, but Vista copied nearly every Tiger feature the average user would notice. You still have the pain of antivirus and spyware/malware, but truthfully most folks would rather spend some time dealing with those problems and spend $600 on a Dell instead of $1200 for a comparable Apple.
Apple needs to realize that as OSs mature, they won't have the 'look at us we're stable and secure' argument anymore. Vista is pretty darn stable I'm afraid, and even XP was fine. My work computer has been on for 3 months straight without a restart (thanks in part to a secure corporate network) with XP and it's fine on this old PIII box, explorer crashed a few times in that stretch but big deal, that took seconds to fix and is no reason to spend more for MacOS.
4 months won't cripple Apple, and it's given me a good excuse to put off the Mac Pro and buy a kayak and Nikon D200, but taken with all the other clues we have today, I hope it's not a sign of things to come.
If MacOS is just another alternative to the windows-dominated computer world, it will fail. Why? IT COSTS MORE WITH FEWER OPTIONS. It needs an advantage; it needs to stay ahead, both in features and in hardware-OS integration. "just working" isn't good enough when any new windows computer does a pretty good job of 'just working' as well.
Apple was doing a pretty good job of getting ahead with faster intel processors and a superior OS while XP lived on forever with 8 billion security patches and got nothing but bad press. Unfortunately the PC world keeps moving along as Apple toils over an ugly little overpriced block of plastic.
I think the iphone will have success, but it will never be mass adopted like the ipod unless it's cheap. Their best hope is probably to follow the RAZR strategy which was 'expensive and exclusive at first, only the coolest of the cool had them, then after a year it'll be free with contract renewal and EVERYONE will get it'. I like the idea of changing the mobile contract-tied market, but please, I have a very nice RAZR in my pocket that I paid nothing for except my $22/mo. slice of a family plan I worked out with my sister and parents who are hours away. in my 2 year contract i'll pay a total of just over $500 for a nice phone with great reception and 5 day battery life and 1/3 of our 800 minutes/mo (plus rollover and n&w of course).
To end my rant, please Apple, give us a hint that you understand MacOS and the related hardware is your very core and essence. Please.
Holy lunchtime rant Batman!!!
My theory:
Apple never had any secret features for Leopard, but when they saw that people were expecting some killer secret features, they were like "oh shizzle", and had to delay Leopard as a result.
Apple never had any secret features for Leopard, but when they saw that people were expecting some killer secret features, they were like "oh shizzle", and had to delay Leopard as a result.
Wine is very compatible if it's used in conjunction with a real copy of Windows (Wine has the capability of using the real DLLs instead of its own cloned versions.) The only serious issues are with those applications that need to address hardware (such as USB drivers), including those that rely upon copy prevention systems.
Apple just bundling Wine wouldn't work, but if they created a Windows installer that also configured a version of Wine to work under Mac OS X, then they could produce something that "just works" in the majority of cases. They'd have to do some work to overcome the problems caused by copy prevention systems, but otherwise...
This is, as you already knows, not to be taken as a sign that I think Apple will incorporate such a technology into Mac OS X. I honestly don't think anyone's barking up the right tree with the Bootcamp/Windows speculation. I think the Apple press release can be taken at face value, this is iPhone related.
What I really want to learn from this news is that Apple is going to produce something really special through Leopard and I still won't know until June*.
*When I expected to find out myself through using it.
I probably wouldn't be as upset about this if I planned on getting an iPhone but I don't need an 80GB iPod and an iPhone as well. :/
I'd rather get an e61 which ends up a lot cheaper...
*When I expected to find out myself through using it.
I probably wouldn't be as upset about this if I planned on getting an iPhone but I don't need an 80GB iPod and an iPhone as well. :/
I'd rather get an e61 which ends up a lot cheaper...
Remember in 1996, one year prior to returning to Apple as iCEO, when the adjective most often used to describe Apple was "beleaguered," Steve Jobs was quoted as saying,
"The PC wars are over. Microsoft won a long time ago. If I were the head of Apple, I would milk the Mac for all it's worth and then move on the next big thing."
He's in charge now and true to his word, this is his vision for the future of the company. For Apple to survive it does need to continue to focus its resources on "the next big thing". In another decade the gizmos & gadgets and the Macs will merge and become one. Today's iPhone is tomorrow's Mac in your pocket. I think that is the legacy Jobs is intending to leave and this shift in Apple's focus and change in name lays the groundwork.
Stripped down Leopard is on the iPhone...the iPhone and the AppleTV are specialized Macs in disguise...Leopard is delayed while work is completed on iPhone...iPods with full screens will become indistinguishable from iPhones...today's separate gadgets and computers are the grandparents of tomorrow's unified devices...
Yes, I made a similar post in yesterday's 1000+ post thread, but I think that quote above is important.
I've been using Wine since I started using Linux in about '94. It's nothing worth writing home about at this point in time. The OS formerly known as Lindows quickly abandoned their hopes/dreams of their Linux OS running "virtually anything" Windows, without Windows, a long time ago, for a very real-world reason (they couldn't handle the support for every Windows app ever written, and their claims of compatibility bordered on false advertising.)
Apple would be nuts to bundle a version of Wine and market it as allowing OS X 10.5 users as being "able run Windows, without paying for Windows" for a variety of reasons.
Real World (for Joe Average Computer User):
If you absolutely need 100% functionality of a given Windows program, your best bet is to simply boot Windows on a machine that provides full hardware supports for the OS.
If you can "get by" by simply running "many" (but not all) Windows apps, you buy Parallels.
If you can "get by" with even fewer, e.g., some apps, like IE, most of MS Office, and have a great deal of time to muck around with getting apps requring DX10 ('gamez!') to run, then you could go the cheap-thrills route, and use Wine.
Apple resources are being stretched thin, with good reason (iPhone, OS 10.5, new hardware in '07, etc.), I don't know why it's so difficult for people to accept that reality.
Steves not a stupid man, and apple dont have unlimited resources guys, something had to give and im sure there were many arguements and frowns in cupertino when this decision had to be made.
apple know this is going to cost them some stock points and upset its loyal customers, the question is will they try and make it upto us?
they have already dropped the price of cinema displays?
They could offer all macs bought this year get leopard at a big discount upon release?
They could give big ramps to hardware giving us more bang for our buck.
I know this hasnt happened, but it could happen if apple decide to make it upto us, it could be a great year for mac hardware buyers.
remember its only the software end apple has failed us.
and surely steve knows if apple does nothing between now and october it wont be one of apples best years
apple know this is going to cost them some stock points and upset its loyal customers, the question is will they try and make it upto us?
they have already dropped the price of cinema displays?
They could offer all macs bought this year get leopard at a big discount upon release?
They could give big ramps to hardware giving us more bang for our buck.
I know this hasnt happened, but it could happen if apple decide to make it upto us, it could be a great year for mac hardware buyers.
remember its only the software end apple has failed us.
and surely steve knows if apple does nothing between now and october it wont be one of apples best years
Not necessarily ("major")... We can assume that during the coming months Apple will be introducing new hardware, much of it likely to use new technologies (Santa Rosa, et al). "Robson" is a good example of such. While it's safe to assume there are Apple hardware prototypes being tested with the new technologies (such as Robson), until the actual production hardware is released the real-world testing ground, you can't say for sure if this (new tech) will work properly (or not.)
Taking it a bit further: Intel's late-07/early-08 offerings will make use of even more new technologies. Consider SSE4 for example, which adds new instructions, etc. Until that is tested, with hardware prototypes and in the real-world, you can't be certain it will work properly on Joe Average Computer User's new Mac.
I cut your essay a little short. But here's my response:
First, I'm sure Apple is a software company that makes most of its profits from software.
Apple is really closing on the price difference. Also, between a 20" iMac and a comparable Gateway Windows box, the Gateway cost about $500 more. (My friend's dad just bought a box at Best Buy).
And remember the beginning of the iPod? Look at Thread 500. Also, the first iPod was around $599 (or was it $499?). Either way, the same price as the iPhone. Yet still, people bought the iPod, and it turned into what it is today. Give the iPhone time, and it could be as big as the iPod. Starting off expensive with a small market, and growing huge in time.
You miss the major plot point:
virtualization != boot manager
Correct. The source doesn't call it virtualization anywhere. People are somehow concluding that "integrated" Boot Camp means it is now a virtualization software instead of a boot manager. That is a heck of a leap to infer from one word.
I think the comparison to the iPod is the wrong one. The best comparison to the iPhone is the Mac. The iPod had advantages of being an fairly open adoption route from the start...anyone with Mp3 files and Firewire could use it. It was significantly different from other players in the market, not just in terms of the OS, but in terms of size for a HD player. The ease of adoption and the feature set made the iPod take off.
To me, the iPhone is more like a Mac. While the OS is amazing, it's a closed system...one carrier (paralleling the ability to only run the Mac OS on Apple Hardware), the actual phone technology in it is not the different from other phones (both Windows and Macs are on Intel now), the limited music capacity won't let the people currently purchasing the high end music players (who have the $$ for this iPhone) ditch their current model for the iPhone without losing the ability to access all their content (In this way, the iPhone is set up to be the next Cube...they are going after people who have the $$, but expecting them to compromise on functionality).
Wine has been around for a long time. I used to play with it on Linux. Maybe it's improved, but back then there weren't that many Windows programs that could make use of it. Only a handful.
We have witnessed the slow pace in which the dev seeds of the Leopard betas have been seeded for a long while. On top of that, the known-bug lists were still huge in the newest release.
Come one....
Leopard was never going to be ready for a June '07 release since all the 9A3xx releases were still so unstable and bug-ridden, and now 9A4xx too.
Usually when a new Mac OS X 10.x release gets near, we find the dev seeds become ever more frequent (cloese to a new release a week) and that the known-bug list gets very small. Ofcourse this is no guarantee, but seeing the slow "development" of 10.5, I am pretty sure Apple knew Lepoard will be delayed until at least late summer ever since MWSF, but needed the best timing and a good excuse to mention it.
So they chose right before NAB so that some (supposedly) good news would let people forget this bad news quickly, and chose the iPhone as the excuse.
Apple had managed to keep a very, very good record of "delivered as promised" (some past Mac OS X relases... Intel switch etc.) but, let's be honest, in the IT world it is more the exception than the rule to deliver something on time. Micro$oft is worst IMHO.
Come one....
Leopard was never going to be ready for a June '07 release since all the 9A3xx releases were still so unstable and bug-ridden, and now 9A4xx too.
Usually when a new Mac OS X 10.x release gets near, we find the dev seeds become ever more frequent (cloese to a new release a week) and that the known-bug list gets very small. Ofcourse this is no guarantee, but seeing the slow "development" of 10.5, I am pretty sure Apple knew Lepoard will be delayed until at least late summer ever since MWSF, but needed the best timing and a good excuse to mention it.
So they chose right before NAB so that some (supposedly) good news would let people forget this bad news quickly, and chose the iPhone as the excuse.
Apple had managed to keep a very, very good record of "delivered as promised" (some past Mac OS X relases... Intel switch etc.) but, let's be honest, in the IT world it is more the exception than the rule to deliver something on time. Micro$oft is worst IMHO.