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In either case, the hypothetical tablet with detachable keyboard doesn't offer me a conclusive benefit over my current setup.

I think if your satisfied with you laptop-ipad experience--you can safely disregard this product. But for students, enterprise types and designers--this is a great product. Math and science notes, design sketches, contract markup, technical publication annotation, etc. Awesome sauce. All in a pc os with a robust file environment.
 
Not with your current setup but it might for someone who doesn't have anything right now. It would also be nice for people who currently already carry both a MBA and an iPad.

Agree that if I didn't already have a MBA and iMac, I might consider this hypothetical tablet with detachable keyboard, and buy a second keyboard so I have one at home and at office. Who knows, by the time I'm ready to upgrade my MBA, hybrid devices may have become mature enough to be an excellent tablet as well as a very good laptop. I do think technology will get there eventually. I'm just not in a hurry to jump on the hybrid bandwagon until the technology is truly mature.

I can think of some situations where it would be nice to instead of a MBA and an iPad have a device like this. Like let's say that you are working on something in the office and you sync it to the cloud and yadda yadda yadda. You go to work on it from home or somewhere but oh shoot internet is down...can't pull it from the cloud. But since your MBA is really your iPad, whatever you were working on is right there with you.
>snip<
Having to sync things to the cloud and transfer stuff back and forth to me is annoying.

I used to worry about not being able to access my files on the cloud, but Dropbox and OneDrive have been so rock solid over the last few years, I don't worry about that anymore. And I don't find the syncing annoying -- I never have to think about it, really. I just drag things into my Dropbox or OneDrive folder, and they appear on all my devices. I make changes to a file on one device, and the changes appear everywhere else without my having to do anything. Sure, the cable internet connection might go down, but then I have the cellular connection on my iPad. If a situation ever happens that the cellular and cable both go down at once... Well, I think that will happen only with a widespread blackout or something, and I'd be too busy trying to salvage the contents of my refrigator, trying to make sure we have food and water, etc, to worry about not having access to my files!

Even if it is a small market...I think people would eat it up.

If people do eat it up, then wouldn't the market grow larger?

Yes, all-in-one devices can be convenient, but do you really want to eat your dinner with only a Swiss Army knife? The only people who do that are the ones who are on a camping trip. When home, a set of proper knives and forks are a lot more comfortable to use.
 
Yes, all-in-one devices can be convenient, but do you really want to eat your dinner with only a Swiss Army knife? The only people who do that are the ones who are on a camping trip. When home, a set of proper knives and forks are a lot more comfortable to use.

Its not about being a less good laptop with a less good tablet merged for convenience. Its about it being the right tool for hybrid tasks (mentioned above)
 
I think if your satisfied with you laptop-ipad experience--you can safely disregard this product. But for students, enterprise types and designers--this is a great product. Math and science notes, design sketches, contract markup, technical publication annotation, etc. Awesome sauce. All in a pc os with a robust file environment.

Its not about being a less good laptop with a less good tablet merged for convenience. Its about it being the right tool for hybrid tasks (mentioned above)

Ok, you've got a point. But I'd like to qualify "students," because that's too broad a category. It depends also on what field you are studying.

Just so long as we can agree that hybrid devices are not for everyone. There was one person in this discussion (sorry, I can't really remember who said what) who kept insisting that the Surface Pro does "everything," as if that was a good thing for everyone.

But to repeat my previous analogy, a Swiss Army knife is the right tool for camping, but the number of people who go camping is much smaller than the number of people who eat dinner at home. I just think in general, hybrid tools, like the Swiss Army knife and the Surface, tend to be useful to a smaller number of people.
 
Returned my SP2 yesterday the hardware was nice but there was just too many little compromises being made at every turn.

I really wanted to like this device as I do a bit of digital painting and wanted the digitiser to enhance my drawing experience.

I know it's a cliche but with my Apple products everything just works out of the box. I'm now waiting for the next iPad Air and a decent pressure sensitive stylus.
 
I stopped by a Microsoft booth today to take a closer look at the SP3 and get a few questions answered about the day-to-day operations of the device. I thought the SP2 was nice, but the SP3 is really, really nice. This would have been the perfect computing device for me when I was an undergrad. The only thing holding me back from getting one for work is the size. A standard iPad was too wide for me, and the Surface Pro 3 is slightly wider than that. The iPad mini is the perfect size. If and when Microsoft releases a "Surface Pro Mini" (with a pen) I think I'll be completely sold.

There will still be some compromises with the switch - the inability to see and respond to text messages (good with iOS 7 and iMessage, due to become even better with iOS 8 and SMS text sharing between devices), and the lack of the fingerprint sensor to unlock the device (almost certain to be released on all iPads this autumn).

The ability to have the full-featured OS is nice, as is split-screen multitasking (although the limitation to landscape orientation means it's not really that useful to me). If Apple would just introduce a digitizer into their iPads so that it had full stylus support I might still envy the Surface in certain ways, but I wouldn't switch. Come on, Apple...
 
Ok, you've got a point. But I'd like to qualify "students," because that's too broad a category. It depends also on what field you are studying.

Just so long as we can agree that hybrid devices are not for everyone. There was one person in this discussion (sorry, I can't really remember who said what) who kept insisting that the Surface Pro does "everything," as if that was a good thing for everyone.

But to repeat my previous analogy, a Swiss Army knife is the right tool for camping, but the number of people who go camping is much smaller than the number of people who eat dinner at home. I just think in general, hybrid tools, like the Swiss Army knife and the Surface, tend to be useful to a smaller number of people.

LOL, that wasn't said. A desktop OS can do everything. Mac, PC, or SP3 as that has a full OS

The swiss army knife is a wild analogy. It isn't like the SP3 is a cheap, plastic, cut down tablet with poor specs and poor screen. From all accounts its a lovely piece of kit. If you bought a SP3 tablet ONLY, its a great tablet. No compromise.
The only compromise I see is the keyboard, and its not like everyone says ts crap. If you bought an SP3 only for the use as a laptop, aside from the keyboard, its just a Windows laptop, no more, no less. That you can get both as a hybrid is a great option.

This thread has become ambiguous, as are we talking about the SP3 as a new, innovative piece of hardware, or are we talking about OSX/iOS vs Win8/Metro??

Compromise. Too often used. EVERYTHING is a compromise. MBA, rMBP, iMac, PC, Win laptop, all are compromises. Your car is a compromise. Is you car perfect as a shopping trolley, and for taking the fam damily on holiday, and going on rough roads like an SUV? No. You bought what reduces the compromise. Mini iPad, iPad, iPad Pro, three sizes. Compromise as you can have poor or great real estate, or poor or great portability. Same with 3.5 to 5.5 smartphones.

How much of this thread is anti MS I dunno, but while I have no interest in going back to Windows, the SP3 is a very innovative device. Apple cannot make a hybrid. They can only rebut by pricing the Apple equivalent (MBA/iPAD) accordingly.

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There will still be some compromises with the switch - the inability to see and respond to text messages (good with iOS 7 and iMessage, due to become even better with iOS 8 and SMS text sharing between devices), and the lack of the fingerprint sensor to unlock the device (almost certain to be released on all iPads this autumn).

NO. You are comparing OSX/iOS to Win 8/Metro. Irrelevant in this thread
 
If you bought a SP3 tablet ONLY, its a great tablet. No compromise.

Too big, too heavy, poor "tablet" app selection/quality (especially compared to rivals), mediocre battery life compared to competition... I think you may have a blind spot for the issues that the SP3 presents as a tablet-only experience.

The only compromise I see is the keyboard, and its not like everyone says ts crap. If you bought an SP3 only for the use as a laptop, aside from the keyboard, its just a Windows laptop, no more, no less. That you can get both as a hybrid is a great option.

The "only" compromise being the keyboard, one of the key pieces of hardware for a laptop, is a pretty big compromise. Though you're right that it hasn't been considered "crap", it's certainly not a hugely successful add on either. And bear that in mind: it's a $130 add on for the base tablet. Another compromise that you're ignoring is the fact that it doesn't offer a great "in lap" experience either, which is something that a traditional laptop does well.
 
Too big, too heavy, poor "tablet" app selection/quality (especially compared to rivals), mediocre battery life compared to competition... I think you may have a blind spot for the issues that the SP3 presents as a tablet-only experience.



The "only" compromise being the keyboard, one of the key pieces of hardware for a laptop, is a pretty big compromise. Though you're right that it hasn't been considered "crap", it's certainly not a hugely successful add on either. And bear that in mind: it's a $130 add on for the base tablet. Another compromise that you're ignoring is the fact that it doesn't offer a great "in lap" experience either, which is something that a traditional laptop does well.

Too Big. iPad is too big and heavy for some, they get a mini. iPad Pro that is leaked will also be too big and too heavy.

Mediocre Battery Life. A quick Google shows they quote 9 hours. A test at Winsupersite gave 7 hours HD video playback. Does a new device from a competitor have to be identical to not be mediocre?

Apps. Thats an issue with Metro not with the SP3 as an innovative device. Like Apple and Google who also had poor app support when released that will change. Or again, are we comparing OSX/iOS to Win8/Metro or are we comparing hardware?

Keyboard. Anecdotal. Some say like you it isn't great, others say its fine. Certainly a compromise over a laptop keyboard for sure, more for some and less for others.

Blind Spot. No. I look at it for what it is, without any pro Apple, anti MS bias.

If it doesn't suit you, no need to buy, doesn't mean that one persons so called compromises are the same elsewhere. Everything we own is a compromise
 
I saw that. The keywords up to 650 and a secondly, couldn't you get more $$ by selling it yourself?

From what I've read they had this offer when the SP2 came out, so its really nothing new, but still if you want to make the switch it's definitely sweetening the deal.

I don't think is low considering the new $899 mba price and the discounts from Best Buy for example where you can get from $100-250 ad 10% extra movers if done in the right moment.



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As for me, I'm seriously considering a surface PRO just because of the pen and response of it on the tablet.
 
This thread has become ambiguous, as are we talking about the SP3 as a new, innovative piece of hardware, or are we talking about OSX/iOS vs Win8/Metro??

The topic of this thread is "where is Apple's rebuttal to the Surface?" I think the software is very much a part of the Surface experience, so I see no reason to just confine ourselves to discussing the hardware. Especially when Apple's rebuttal to Surface seems to consist mostly of iOS 8/Yosemite.
 
Simple! None.

Apple doesn't need to lower themselves to bashing other companies, especially since Microsoft Surface is horrible and isn't worth Apple's time.
 
Too Big. iPad is too big and heavy for some, they get a mini. iPad Pro that is leaked will also be too big and too heavy.

The iPad Pro is vaporware; I'm not interested in discussing it. As far as the iPad goes you're correct: there are variations to suit people's individual needs. Don't see anything wrong with that. The SP3 is the lightest Surface device but also the biggest; if you want something smaller you have compromise on weight.

Mediocre Battery Life. A quick Google shows they quote 9 hours. A test at Winsupersite gave 7 hours HD video playback. Does a new device from a competitor have to be identical to not be mediocre?

In general yes, a new device should have identical at least battery life otherwise it's a compromise.

Apps. Thats an issue with Metro not with the SP3 as an innovative device. Like Apple and Google who also had poor app support when released that will change. Or again, are we comparing OSX/iOS to Win8/Metro or are we comparing hardware?

Slice it any which way you want, Windows 8.1 is the SP3 OS and it has a real issue. I totally understand why you'd want to take the software out of the equation because Windows is lacking, but it's a Microsoft device.

Keyboard. Anecdotal. Some say like you it isn't great, others say its fine. Certainly a compromise over a laptop keyboard for sure, more for some and less for others.

But it is a compromise. Agreed.

If it doesn't suit you, no need to buy, doesn't mean that one persons so called compromises are the same elsewhere. Everything we own is a compromise

I agree, but the point of this thread is that Apple should release a competing device and my argument is that there's no need because the market for the SP3 is small and requires too many compromises. I really don't mean to trash the SP3 and I've said multiple times that I totally understand how there would be a market for such a device. I just think that it's too small to warrant a rush by Apple to try and go head to head with it. Microsoft already threw down the gauntlet against the MBA and most tech writers agree that the SP3 comes up short against it in a competition, so Apple already won.
 
The iPad Pro is vaporware; I'm not interested in discussing it. As far as the iPad goes you're correct: there are variations to suit people's individual needs. Don't see anything wrong with that. The SP3 is the lightest Surface device but also the biggest; if you want something smaller you have compromise on weight.

Same with phones and tablets. I want bigger but its less portable. I want portable but screen too small. Thus, everything is a compromise, not just the SP3



In general yes, a new device should have identical at least battery life otherwise it's a compromise.

So with a laptop or a tablet or a phone, we go by the device with the longest battery life, so every other device is a compromise?? Note that the SP3 is a tablet and powered by Intel. Essentially a desktop powered tablet, so the battery life is still impressive. And its still high.



Slice it any which way you want, Windows 8.1 is the SP3 OS and it has a real issue. I totally understand why you'd want to take the software out of the equation because Windows is lacking, but it's a Microsoft device.

Lol, ok, another Apple hater of Windows?? :) Real issue? Lacking? Ive used Windows for years, and am a recent switcher. Details??



But it is a compromise. Agreed.



I agree, but the point of this thread is that Apple should release a competing device and my argument is that there's no need because the market for the SP3 is small and requires too many compromises. I really don't mean to trash the SP3 and I've said multiple times that I totally understand how there would be a market for such a device. I just think that it's too small to warrant a rush by Apple to try and go head to head with it. Microsoft already threw down the gauntlet against the MBA and most tech writers agree that the SP3 comes up short against it in a competition, so Apple already won.

I do agree on some points, but not on the compromise factor. Compromise is everywhere. Key board on the SP3 is for some, yes. To me, the only compromise on a hybrid is if its made chew and nasty. The SP3 isn't either. And that I could only use one at a time. Thats the compromise, offset by a reduced combo price if that was the case.

Many use a laptop and tablet, so thats the market potential I see. It may only be 10%, but its 10% of a huge market. And going by this Apple thread its not limited to MS users.

Apple cannot release a competing device, so there won't be a hardware rebuttal. Their OS's are on different architectures, so all they could do is have a screen less MBA, iPad as the screen. Deduct screen cost, add back extra connection hardware fittings. Proper laptop, proper tablet, heavy as.

----------

The topic of this thread is "where is Apple's rebuttal to the Surface?" I think the software is very much a part of the Surface experience, so I see no reason to just confine ourselves to discussing the hardware. Especially when Apple's rebuttal to Surface seems to consist mostly of iOS 8/Yosemite.

Agree, but why do only 1% of the replies here mention the OS. And is it the desktop or the tablet OS? Oddly, many here, % wise, want one, despite moving to Windows. The issue of Windows8/Metro has existed for some time, the SP3 hasn't changed that.

If we took your point above, then this thread should not exist as Microsoft and Apple devices and OS are different and not exchangeable.
 
Lol, ok, another Apple hater of Windows?? :) Real issue? Lacking? Ive used Windows for years, and am a recent switcher. Details??

I'm a Windows user. I'm currently using Win7, and I didn't think Vista was that terrible. But I do have issues with Win8. I think I've mentioned some of them earlier in this thread, when I was discussing my experiences with the Surface Pro 3. Among the glitches:
*Keyboard cover wasn't immediately recognized when I first attached it
*I never knew what would happen when I opened the cover. Sometimes that would wake up the Surface, other times I needed to press the power button to wake the device. iPads are always consistent in waking up when the cover is opened.
*Tapping on a text input field doesn't bring up the on-screen keyboard. You have to manually tap the keyboard icon.
*You can install desktop and metro versions of the same program, which then don't communicate with each other. Power users might use this to their advantage, but it would be terribly confusing for non-techie users.
*Setting controls are split among metro and desktop UI with little rhyme or reason. I don't like the UI switching in and out on me as I try to adjust some setting.
*The lack of a Start Button / Menu in the desktop was a disaster, which Microsoft hasn't quite finished back pedaling from.

Overall, Win8 just doesn't feel finished. It's mostly little details that don't work quite as smoothly as they should, but add up all the slight annoyances and you get one big frustrating experience.

Apple cannot release a competing device, so there won't be a hardware rebuttal. Their OS's are on different architectures, so all they could do is have a screen less MBA, iPad as the screen. Deduct screen cost, add back extra connection hardware fittings. Proper laptop, proper tablet, heavy as.

If Apple did decide they need to release a hybrid device, they can write an OS for it -- just like Microsoft wrote Win8.

Agree, but why do only 1% of the replies here mention the OS.

First you complain there was too much talk of the OS, now you complain there is too little? It's a discussion thread, people will talk as much or as little about particular aspects of the Surface and Apple's possible responses to it as they want. There is no rule that we have to make sure we talk about a thing a certain percentage of the discussion.
 
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I'm a Windows user. I'm currently using Win7, and I didn't think Vista was that terrible.

Vista was a resource hog, that was the chief issue



But I do have issues with Win8.

Here, Down Under, on my tech forum, the thread popped up about 8. Half of them were I hate it, period. These are individual users and pro users. The other half said, its fine, you need to learn it, adapt to it, don't hate change because its changed, use the various Start button add ons if need be. Win 8 is Win 7 that is improved, runs better, and it has the metro tablet built in. Im not suggesting to you that this is what you need to do, but it was a funny discussion. More the point was lack of Metro apps.

I think I've mentioned some of them earlier in this thread, when I was discussing my experiences with the Surface Pro 3. Among the glitches:
*Keyboard cover wasn't immediately recognized when I first attached it
*I never knew what would happen when I opened the cover. Sometimes that would wake up the Surface, other times I needed to press the power button to wake the device. iPads are always consistent in waking up when the cover is opened.
*Tapping on a text input field doesn't bring up the on-screen keyboard. You have to manually tap the keyboard icon.
*You can install desktop and metro versions of the same program, which then don't communicate with each other. Power users might use this to their advantage, but it would be terribly confusing for non-techie users.
*Setting controls are split among metro and desktop UI with little rhyme or reason. I don't like the UI switching in and out on me as I try to adjust some setting.
*The lack of a Start Button / Menu in the desktop was a disaster, which Microsoft hasn't quite finished back pedaling from.

Overall, Win8 just doesn't feel finished. It's mostly little details that don't work quite as smoothly as they should, but add up all the slight annoyances and you get one big frustrating experience.

I can see that, affects some more then others, no doubt MSFT will push that stuff out. I had similar issues using my first iPad, and my first OSX, rMBP. Learning curve



If Apple did decide they need to release a hybrid device, they can write an OS for it -- just like Microsoft wrote Win8.

No. Win 8 is an updated Win 7, plus they just added in Metro. It all runs on Intel architecture. A big plus is that the tablet and desktop UI run on the same platform, thats huge. They can easily and over time improve that, including your and others issues. OSX runs on Intel, iOS runs on ARM.

Apple could:
1. Change OSX to ARM or iOS to Intel, thats a huge change. Not the coding bit all the "old, now outdated, modern devices"
2. Get the two OS's more integrated they are doing that




First you complain there was too much talk of the OS, now you complain there is too little? It's a discussion thread, people will talk as much or as little about particular aspects of the Surface and Apple's possible responses to it as they want. There is no rule that we have to make sure we talk about a thing a certain percentage of the discussion.

Ok.Why should there be an Apple rebuttal to the SP3? Apple cannot make a Win8 tablet, and MSFT cannot make an iOS device. MSFT have innovated, and given an option for Windows users, so essentially it has no effect on Apple, so no need to rebut it. And no need to mention OS as they differ between the two companies. Its an MSFT device ONLY

But, as Windows dominates globally, and as the iPad has been so popular, I assume (and I may be wrong) that most iPads are used by Windows users. So, a successful foray into this hybrid, may bring back past iPad sales to MSFT sales, as most iPad users are in fact Windows XP,7,8 users. Win 8 forces them to get used to Metro. Then they are then used to a metro tablet, that also includes Win 8 desktop functionality, it does it all. Thats quite compelling.

This is why I feel the OS is not relevant, basically and simplistically you can say that MSFT wants to drive sales to its own market, Windows users, but that will also drive sales away from Apple, hence Apple does need to rebut somehow. What Apple users like is that they can have a tablet with a full desktop functioning OS. The tread here on the iPad pro has posters wanting OSX to be on the iPad Pro for thats same reason. I can see that. Needs to be made touch friendly and pen friendly. But I don't see that happening. What Apple are doing is integrating many devices into one by software, MSFT is integrating then by hardware.
 
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I can see that, affects some more then others, no doubt MSFT will push that stuff out. I had similar issues using my first iPad, and my first OSX, rMBP. Learning curve
This isn't Microsoft's first generation of Surface, it's their third. The issues that Night Spring reported with the SP3 were also present in both previous generations os Surfaces (both Pro and non-Pro). The "learning curve" appears to be absent.
 
Simple! None.

Apple doesn't need to lower themselves to bashing other companies, especially since Microsoft Surface is horrible and isn't worth Apple's time.

So when Apple do, then you are going to change your mind are you ?

Or do you still maintain the iPad mini is wrong, and a larger iPhone 6 is wrong?
 
Ok.Why should there be an Apple rebuttal to the SP3? Apple cannot make a Win8 tablet, and MSFT cannot make an iOS device. MSFT have innovated, and given an option for Windows users, so essentially it has no effect on Apple, so no need to rebut it. And no need to mention OS as they differ between the two companies. Its an MSFT device ONLY

What? And apple would never make a bigger phone, because Samsung is making android phones. Why would Apple respond?
 
I can see that, affects some more then others, no doubt MSFT will push that stuff out. I had similar issues using my first iPad, and my first OSX, rMBP. Learning curve

The thing is, I can't remember having any learning curve with my first iPad. Perhaps because I was already familiar with iOS from using the iPod touch. But then, I don't remember any learning curve with my first iPod touch, either.

This is why I feel the OS is not relevant, basically and simplistically you can say that MSFT wants to drive sales to its own market, Windows users, but that will also drive sales away from Apple, hence Apple does need to rebut somehow.

Actually, the forced inclusion of Metro appears to have driven at least part of Windows users away, or made them decide to stick with Windows 7 or earlier. I know I will be sticking with Win7 until Microsoft clearns up its act, and I'm seriously contemplating switching to OS X. The tighter integration between iOS 8 and Yosemite is making the switch quite attractive.

So from where I'm standing, the OS looks extremely relevant.

What Apple users like is that they can have a tablet with a full desktop functioning OS. The tread here on the iPad pro has posters wanting OSX to be on the iPad Pro for thats same reason. I can see that. Needs to be made touch friendly and pen friendly. But I don't see that happening. What Apple are doing is integrating many devices into one by software, MSFT is integrating then by hardware.

Last year, when Apple introduced the A7 chip, it called it a desktop-class chip. iOS *is* a touch friendly version of OS X. It's not pen friendly at the moment, but that is easily fixed by adding a digitalizer. The only thing iOS wouldn't do that Win8 does is run legacy desktop software. Any other "desktop" function can be turned on if Apple flips a switch, as anyone familiar with the jailbreak tweaks scene well knows. And legacy software is not as important as people think. You don't really want to run desktop Photoshop on a tablet, what you really want is a tablet version of Photoshop that does everything the desktop version does.

I think eventually iOS and OS X will converge. But Apple is leading up to it gradually, rather than forcing a giant leap forward like Microsoft did with Win8. So sure, right now we are stuck with iOS apps that are not as powerful or full-featured as their desktop counterparts. But iOS gets more powerful each year, and with that, iOS apps get more powerful each year. Eventually, we won't see much difference between desktop and tablet apps in terms of power and features, so that when the convergence does happen, the transition will be smooth, with little or no learning curve. At least, that is what I think Apple is aiming for.
 
I think eventually iOS and OS X will converge. But Apple is leading up to it gradually, rather than forcing a giant leap forward like Microsoft did with Win8. So sure, right now we are stuck with iOS apps that are not as powerful or full-featured as their desktop counterparts. But iOS gets more powerful each year, and with that, iOS apps get more powerful each year. Eventually, we won't see much difference between desktop and tablet apps in terms of power and features, so that when the convergence does happen, the transition will be smooth...

Still no reak ios multitasking in 2015--thats as smooth as it gets
 
Still no reak ios multitasking in 2015--thats as smooth as it gets

What do you mean by mutitasking? If it means having processes running in the background, then enabling that is simple -- there's been jailbreak tweaks that do that for years. If you mean multiple windows, again, there are jailbreak tweaks that do that. So it's not that Apple CAN'T, it's that they are choosing not to. And whatever their reasons for that choice, once they decide to bring multitasking to iOS, they can.
 
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