All iPads Where is Apple's rebuttal to Microsoft Surface?

[ZombiePete]

How many use a laptop?
How many use a tablet?

Thats the potential market, huge. Its not a niche. Two old products melded into one. Tablet heavier, yes, screen bugger, cool.

The consensus among reviewers seems to be that the Surface is a compromise device; neither the best notebook nor the best tablet. It's a replacement device for those who want both devices and are willing to give up something in order to have both functions in one device. That market tends to be business-oriented users, and thus is a niche consumer market.

There are cool things about the Surface. The pen functionality looks nice, and I have to admit that there's an appeal to the look and functionality of it. But in the end I don't find that Windows 8.1 functions particularly well as a tablet, and so the Surface requires too many compromises for me.

 

[tdale]

The consensus among reviewers seems to be that the Surface is a compromise device; neither the best notebook nor the best tablet. It's a replacement device for those who want both devices and are willing to give up something in order to have both functions in one device. That market tends to be business-oriented users, and thus is a niche consumer market.

There are cool things about the Surface. The pen functionality looks nice, and I have to admit that there's an appeal to the look and functionality of it. But in the end I don't find that Windows 8.1 functions particularly well as a tablet, and so the Surface requires too many compromises for me.

As a laptop, the compromise seems to be just the keyboard. As a tablet it just seems to be the larger size and weight. The rest of the tablet experience appears to be superb. So, the so called iPad Pro will be the same compromise

Everyone differs, is the iPad a compromise or is it the iPad Mini? You could also argue that having to take an MBA and iPad on a trip is more a compromise than taking a hybrid. Although the SP3, if you took that you are taking one device, but two OS's, tablet and full. Horses for courses. The iPad, as it uses the restricted iOS is a compromise due to the OS. Lots of ways to look at it

Plus, readers need to filter out posts that are anti the SP3, for no other reason that its MS

 

[ZombiePete]

As a laptop, the compromise seems to be just the keyboard. As a tablet it just seems to be the larger size and weight. The rest of the tablet experience appears to be superb.

A subpar keyboard on a laptop is a pretty big compromise, as is the awkwardness of using it on your lap.

The compromises as a tablet, however, go far beyond just the size and weight. Windows 8.1 has a seriously lackluster Metro app selection in comparison to iOS and Android. The apps it has are often knock offs or sadly unpolished. As a hybrid OS, using Windows solely as a tablet OS can feel awkward and schizophrenic, hopping between the desktop and Metro interfaces. The 8 hour battery life is pretty weak for a tablet these days too, especially given its size. By itself it's a subpar tablet compared to the alternatives, based on my experiences.

Everyone differs, is the iPad a compromise or is it the iPad Mini? You could also argue that having to take an MBA and iPad on a trip is more a compromise than taking a hybrid. Although the SP3, if you took that you are taking one device, but two OS's, tablet and full. Horses for courses. The iPad, as it uses the restricted iOS is a compromise due to the OS. Lots of ways to look at it

You could argue anything, but there are certain expectations for how notebooks and tablets operate nowadays and reviewers seem to agree: the Surface doesn't meet either of those expectations completely. Alternative arguments are the exception, not the rule, it seems.

 

[Night Spring]

I did mean those that use both which I imagine is the bulk of tablet users

The field of my relatives and acquaintances may be a bit skewed, but many of the people I know who have tablets don't need / want a laptop. My partner's sister only has an iPad and is resisting her brother's suggestion that she get a laptop; my boss hasn't touched his laptop since he got his iPad; my mom says she could just live with the iPad if she weren't helping me with my job, because the only things she needs a computer for are work-related things; my aunt can hardly figure out FaceTime to call her grandchildren, she'll never figure out how to do anything on a computer, but she does use the iPad to FaceTime.

Although the SP3, if you took that you are taking one device, but two OS's, tablet and full. Horses for courses. The iPad, as it uses the restricted iOS is a compromise due to the OS. Lots of ways to look at it

Have you actually used Win8? I wouldn't call it having two OS. It's having a single OS that is very mixed up about what it wants to be. For instance, you can pin icons for both desktop and modern apps on the Start Screen. The result being that if you forget which icons are which, you can land on the desktop when you were expecting a tablet-style app, and vice versa. Some Settings controls exist only in desktop mode, others exist only in tablet mode, so you have to navigate though both modes in order to find the settings control you are looking for. You can install tablet and desktop versions of the same program (we ended up installing two versions of Dropbox, and it comes with both desktop and tablet versions of Internet Explorer, which, why? Lord, why???), which can get confusing very quickly...

Please, give me "restricted" if that is what it takes to save us from this muddle!

 

[tdale]

The field of my relatives and acquaintances may be a bit skewed, but many of the people I know who have tablets don't need / want a laptop. My partner's sister only has an iPad and is resisting her brother's suggestion that she get a laptop; my boss hasn't touched his laptop since he got his iPad; my mom says she could just live with the iPad if she weren't helping me with my job, because the only things she needs a computer for are work-related things; my aunt can hardly figure out FaceTime to call her grandchildren, she'll never figure out how to do anything on a computer, but she does use the iPad to FaceTime.



Have you actually used Win8? I wouldn't call it having two OS. It's having a single OS that is very mixed up about what it wants to be. For instance, you can pin icons for both desktop and modern apps on the Start Screen. The result being that if you forget which icons are which, you can land on the desktop when you were expecting a tablet-style app, and vice versa. Some Settings controls exist only in desktop mode, others exist only in tablet mode, so you have to navigate though both modes in order to find the settings control you are looking for. You can install tablet and desktop versions of the same program (we ended up installing two versions of Dropbox, and it comes with both desktop and tablet versions of Internet Explorer, which, why? Lord, why???), which can get confusing very quickly...

Please, give me "restricted" if that is what it takes to save us from this muddle!

I used to use 8, now I have switched. My daughter uses 8. Most of my friends use 8 as do those on my local forum. Ive rarely if ever heard of any of us/them being in a muddle between desktop and Metro

When there has been threads on "Replace a laptop" many do say they can almost replace it, except for ... Off course there will always be those that use consumption functions, and of so they don't need a laptop.

 

[rowspaxe]

I used to use 8, now I have switched. My daughter uses 8. Most of my friends use 8 as do those on my local forum. Ive rarely if ever heard of any of us/them being in a muddle between desktop and Metro

You can make a case the settings being split between metro and desktop is confusing. Otherwise, windows 8 is a 2 minute learning curve

 

[robertosh]

I can see how the iPad mini and larger iPhones are responses to competitors, but what is the 11.6" MBA a response to?

To compete with netbooks.

 

[s2mikey]

A subpar keyboard on a laptop is a pretty big compromise, as is the awkwardness of using it on your lap.

The compromises as a tablet, however, go far beyond just the size and weight. Windows 8.1 has a seriously lackluster Metro app selection in comparison to iOS and Android. The apps it has are often knock offs or sadly unpolished. As a hybrid OS, using Windows solely as a tablet OS can feel awkward and schizophrenic, hopping between the desktop and Metro interfaces. The 8 hour battery life is pretty weak for a tablet these days too, especially given its size. By itself it's a subpar tablet compared to the alternatives, based on my experiences.

You could argue anything, but there are certain expectations for how notebooks and tablets operate nowadays and reviewers seem to agree: the Surface doesn't meet either of those expectations completely. Alternative arguments are the exception, not the rule, it seems.

You nailed it. The Surface ultimately ends up being an OK laptop and an OK tablet. It's shortcomings are huge though for each use. Therein lies the problem with these do it all devices. Just isn't ever gonna work, IMO. The operating system is another huge problem. Windows 8.x might be decent but it just isn't a good mobile OS. And, let's not even get into the incredibly lacking app choices. The software makes the hardware, ultimately.

I still stand by my opinion that keeping these devices separate with a clear delineation between products is the best way to do this. I have ZERO interest in some folding, bending, twisting device that's too heavy and clumsy to be a tablet and lacks all of the true virtues of a real laptop/workstation. And that pesky software problems or lack thereof on top of that. No deal.

 

[Charliebird]

You nailed it. The Surface ultimately ends up being an OK laptop and an OK tablet. It's shortcomings are huge though for each use. Therein lies the problem with these do it all devices. Just isn't ever gonna work, IMO. The operating system is another huge problem. Windows 8.x might be decent but it just isn't a good mobile OS. And, let's not even get into the incredibly lacking app choices. The software makes the hardware, ultimately.

I still stand by my opinion that keeping these devices separate with a clear delineation between products is the best way to do this. I have ZERO interest in some folding, bending, twisting device that's too heavy and clumsy to be a tablet and lacks all of the true virtues of a real laptop/workstation. And that pesky software problems or lack thereof on top of that. No deal.

Now that I have one I can say it's a pretty nice tablet and laptop. It's also going to replace my desktop once the docking station is released. As the tablet the hardware is very nice and feels like a premium piece of equipment. The type cover works fine for me but I'm not a writer. Windows 8 is a little clunky so hopefully MS will fix it in Win 9. I'm not really a fan of OSX so I wouldn't be interested in a Apple hybrid tablet. I am a huge fan of iOS so my iPhone and rMini aren't going anywhere. I've only had it a couple days but so far to me it doesn't feel like a device hampered by compromises. It feels a like a great piece of premium technology. It's actually amazing Microsoft was able to create something of this caliber. I would still rank Apple number 1 for premium technology but this is a close second and everyone else is far behind.

 

[nixiemaiden]

So after spending a night with the SP3 I see where some of the bad press is coming from. I think that it makes a great replacement for a laptop in the sense that it is insanely portable and comfortable to use in positions where previously I could only see myself using a tablet.

As far as a tablet replacement, eh. I knew that it had Netflix so I assumed it would have a Vudu app as well. And maybe Amazon Instant Video or Spotify. These are just a handful of apps that I use regularly on my tablet and I was kind of hoping for lightweight versions of these for the Surface as well. Not a total deal breaker as I can still install the desktop versions...just figured that tablet versions might save more battery life or something.

What I really like about it is that I was able to stream video to it that I can't to my iPad since the iPad is considered a "mobile device". Yes I am aware that they have apps for the iPad to be able to stream but then it is an app for the CW and and app for Fox and an app for ABC and an app for CBS, etc. I was able to stream no problem right to the Surface. The bad thing about this is because of the video codecs that they are using, they aren't very performance friendly. I totally understand what people said about it getting hot to comfortably hold like a tablet. However, what is nice about it is that between the keyboard and the kickstand, I was able to have it comfortably on my lap without the heat really touching me. In the past while using my laptop on my lap, I have had welts all over the top of my legs from the heat. After 3 hours of streaming video and surfing the net last night, none of that.

Basically my overall impression is that people who are looking for a more portable laptop, this is a great solution. If you are looking primarily for a tablet that can double down as a laptop when you need it, it may not be the best. I think it makes for an excellent laptop replacement but a mediocre tablet replacement. I don't feel like the keyboard is a compromise at all. I actually really like how flexible it is and the trackpad is one of the nicest I have tried.

The pen thing is not going to work out like I hoped. I thought I would be able to take the Surface to meetings and use it to take notes on PDFs and stuff to save on paper. While the pen does work great, writing on the tablet is actually pretty noisy and I think people would be annoyed with me. I will still be able to use it for my personal stuff though.

Overall I am pretty happy with it. I got all of the programs I wanted installed on it for my development work and they all run very smoothly. I also love the Windows 8 feature of being able to have side by side windows. I have brackets on one side and my browser on the other side and it is just awesome to see my changes happening real time.

Have I mentioned how gorgeous the screen is??

 

[Night Spring]

Basically my overall impression is that people who are looking for a more portable laptop, this is a great solution. If you are looking primarily for a tablet that can double down as a laptop when you need it, it may not be the best. I think it makes for an excellent laptop replacement but a mediocre tablet replacement.

I totally agree with this assessment. Since I fall into the latter group (looking for a tablet that can occasionally act as a laptop), the Surface isn't for me, but I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the SP3.

Have I mentioned how gorgeous the screen is??

LOL. That screen really is beautiful, it was tempting to keep it just for the screen.

 

[ZombiePete]

I totally agree with this assessment. Since I fall into the latter group (looking for a tablet that can occasionally act as a laptop), the Surface isn't for me, but I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the SP3.

This, to me, really sums up what some of us are saying. It's not that the SP3 is a bad device per se; it just appeals to a smaller market space and so it is probably not worth it for Apple to go after said market when the MBA and iPad lines are already so successful and provide the same functions.

I did try going the hybrid tablet/netbook route with an Asus T100; the device itself wasn't bad (though cheap-feeling), but I just didn't see Windows 8.1 as a decent tablet OS. I tried an HP hybrid device too, same experience. If I'd had a better experience with Windows and Metro, I very well might be singing a different tune right now.

 

[sracer]

Basically my overall impression is that people who are looking for a more portable laptop, this is a great solution. If you are looking primarily for a tablet that can double down as a laptop when you need it, it may not be the best. I think it makes for an excellent laptop replacement but a mediocre tablet replacement. I don't feel like the keyboard is a compromise at all. I actually really like how flexible it is and the trackpad is one of the nicest I have tried.

Thank you. This is what I've been saying for months regarding the Surface line in general. In my opinion Microsoft did themselves a disservice by pushing so hard that the Surface is replacement for ultrabook+tablet combo.

 

[Night Spring]

In my opinion Microsoft did themselves a disservice by pushing so hard that the Surface is replacement for ultrabook+tablet combo.

So how do you think Microsoft should characterize the Surface? I mean, "a tablet that can replace your laptop" is what Microsoft wants the Surface to me, but many of us here think that it doesn't quite live up to that billing. So how would you sell the Surface? "A laptop that can serve as a tablet in a pinch," doesn't quite work as a marketing phrase...

 

[sracer]

So how do you think Microsoft should characterize the Surface? I mean, "a tablet that can replace your laptop" is what Microsoft wants the Surface to me, but many of us here think that it doesn't quite live up to that billing. So how would you sell the Surface? "A laptop that can serve as a tablet in a pinch," doesn't quite work as a marketing phrase...

Two possibilities...
Bundle the SP3 with a TypeCover (actually a voucher for color choice) and market it as a road warrior's Windows ultrabook with a touch screen. Period. Don't try to claim it replaces a Macbook Air. Because it doesn't. People who rely on OSX apps are not going to simply switch to an SP3. People accustomed to the Apple ecosystem are not going to be delighted with Microsoft's version of an ecosystem.

Second option would be to slightly modify the SP3 chassis to allow are more permanent type of connector... Something similar to what Asus, Lenovo, and Acer do to attach their keyboards. It would still be removable but allow for a more sturdy connection and keyboard. Allow an option for a more substantial keyboard (that doubles as a power cover)

Microsoft shouldn't market the SP3 as a tablet until they can get more quality Modern UI apps out and polish up the two modes of Win 8.x.

The claims of inferior keyboard seem to be just "piling on" an already perceived weak product. I think that the Type Covers (all gens) have been terrific. (the trackpad continues to seem like an afterthought)

That's the danger of over-hyping and putting out dots that you want the consumer to connect. People go in with a certain expectation that was either explicitly stated or implied by Microsoft's marketing and presentations... but then become disappointed with those aren't met.

 

[nixiemaiden]

This, to me, really sums up what some of us are saying. It's not that the SP3 is a bad device per se; it just appeals to a smaller market space and so it is probably not worth it for Apple to go after said market when the MBA and iPad lines are already so successful and provide the same functions.

I did try going the hybrid tablet/netbook route with an Asus T100; the device itself wasn't bad (though cheap-feeling), but I just didn't see Windows 8.1 as a decent tablet OS. I tried an HP hybrid device too, same experience. If I'd had a better experience with Windows and Metro, I very well might be singing a different tune right now.

I think that if Apple were to do the same thing, their execution would be different. The execution that Apple would have would be for your every day consumer (90% tablet 10% laptop) where Microsoft is more for professional use (90% laptop 10% tablet)

Allow an option for a more substantial keyboard (that doubles as a power cover)

I really like the way that it attaches and also really like how flexible the keyboard is for just sitting on the couch. However, based on reviews of the power cover for previous models, I think that would fit the bill for the SP3 and I really hope they release it. And make it backlit too...for me backlit keyboard is a must. It was so nice to not have to tilt my screen down to see what keys were where...especially when getting used to a new keyboard!

 

[ZombiePete]

I think that if Apple were to do the same thing, their execution would be different. The execution that Apple would have would be for your every day consumer (90% tablet 10% laptop) where Microsoft is more for professional use (90% laptop 10% tablet)

I would argue, though, that the iPad Air can already serve as the 90/10 split between tablet and laptop when combined with a keyboard. With Apple productivity apps or even Office/Google Drive, you can do a decent amount of work on an iPad as it is today. I'm not sure what kind of hybrid device Apple could make that doesn't fall into the same traps that Microsoft has fallen victim to with the Surface.

 

[sracer]

I would argue, though, that the iPad Air can already serve as the 90/10 split between tablet and laptop when combined with a keyboard. With Apple productivity apps or even Office/Google Drive, you can do a decent amount of work on an iPad as it is today. I'm not sure what kind of hybrid device Apple could make that doesn't fall into the same traps that Microsoft has fallen victim to with the Surface.

I think that only a few minor tweaks to iOS would help to eliminate the (perceived) need for a hybrid device.

Add support for bluetooth mice and expose the file system a bit are two that come to mind.

 

[ZombiePete]

Add support for bluetooth mice and expose the file system a bit are two that come to mind.

I doubt mouse support is coming anytime soon, but iCloud Drive and the third-party cross-application APIs coming to iOS 8 ought to go a long way towards making something similar to the latter a reality.

 

[nixiemaiden]

Kind of what I would envision would be something like the MacBook Air when fully together. Give it a high resolution touch screen and make the keyboard more of a docking station sort of thing. When it isn't connected to the docking station, it would function fully as an iPad running iOS. As soon as you plug it into the docking station, it would run full OSX and OSX would see the iPad through iTunes.

Basically just take the macbook air now and replace the screen with a fully functioning iPad without having to use airplay or whatever to cast the screen to it.

I think that would be cool and would give you a fully functioning tablet and a fully functioning laptop with no compromise.

 

[Night Spring]

Kind of what I would envision would be something like the MacBook Air when fully together. Give it a high resolution touch screen and make the keyboard more of a docking station sort of thing. When it isn't connected to the docking station, it would function fully as an iPad running iOS. As soon as you plug it into the docking station, it would run full OSX and OSX would see the iPad through iTunes.

Basically just take the macbook air now and replace the screen with a fully functioning iPad without having to use airplay or whatever to cast the screen to it.

I think that would be cool and would give you a fully functioning tablet and a fully functioning laptop with no compromise.

I know this sounds good in theory, but what would happen in practice is that 90% of users would either leave the keyboard attached all the time, or never use the keyboard part and it will lie in a corner collecting dust. A tiny minority of users would swap back and forth between tablet and laptop modes and appreciate the advantage of having a hybrid device.

The problem with a detachable anything is what to do with the detachable part when you aren't using it. If you are carrying it with you, might as well keep it attached. If you leave it somewhere, it's not there when you want/need it.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

Thank you. This is what I've been saying for months regarding the Surface line in general. In my opinion Microsoft did themselves a disservice by pushing so hard that the Surface is replacement for ultrabook+tablet combo.

I only using mac for the last 5 years, i used PC for 30 years,
I bought the surface 3 last month and can't get use to it.
My point is that the biggest problem with it is the WIN 8.1.

 

[tdale]

Kind of what I would envision would be something like the MacBook Air when fully together. Give it a high resolution touch screen and make the keyboard more of a docking station sort of thing. When it isn't connected to the docking station, it would function fully as an iPad running iOS. As soon as you plug it into the docking station, it would run full OSX and OSX would see the iPad through iTunes.

Basically just take the macbook air now and replace the screen with a fully functioning iPad without having to use airplay or whatever to cast the screen to it.

I think that would be cool and would give you a fully functioning tablet and a fully functioning laptop with no compromise.

Thats what I have been saying.

----------

I know this sounds good in theory, but what would happen in practice is that 90% of users would either leave the keyboard attached all the time, or never use the keyboard part and it will lie in a corner collecting dust. A tiny minority of users would swap back and forth between tablet and laptop modes and appreciate the advantage of having a hybrid device.

The problem with a detachable anything is what to do with the detachable part when you aren't using it. If you are carrying it with you, might as well keep it attached. If you leave it somewhere, it's not there when you want/need it.

Don't follow your reasoning. Currently you have your MBA sitting somewhere and you have your iPad sitting somewhere. You use the one you want. With this Apple hybrid device, its the same, the only downside is you cannot use both at the same time, as family members may wish to.

Depends on the cost saving for foregoing the MBA screen.

The advantage of the SP3 is that Win 8 has desktop and tablet UI in one OS, whereas the iOS has to be on the iPad screen and the OSX has to be in the MBA keyboard. To resolve that Apple would need to rebuild OSX onto the A series ARM architecture, or make iOS run on Intel. Then they can occupy the one device. Which will have to be in the screen

 

[Night Spring]

Don't follow your reasoning. Currently you have your MBA sitting somewhere and you have your iPad sitting somewhere. You use the one you want. With this Apple hybrid device, its the same, the only downside is you cannot use both at the same time, as family members may wish to.

Currently, my MBA is sitting in the office. I have an iMac at home. My iPad comes with me wherever I go.

If I had a tablet with a detachable keyboard, I think it likely that the keyboard will end up staying either at home or at the office. Or I may end up buying a second keyboard so I can have one at both locations.

In either case, the hypothetical tablet with detachable keyboard doesn't offer me a conclusive benefit over my current setup.

 

[nixiemaiden]

Currently, my MBA is sitting in the office. I have an iMac at home. My iPad comes with me wherever I go.

If I had a tablet with a detachable keyboard, I think it likely that the keyboard will end up staying either at home or at the office. Or I may end up buying a second keyboard so I can have one at both locations.

In either case, the hypothetical tablet with detachable keyboard doesn't offer me a conclusive benefit over my current setup.

Not with your current setup but it might for someone who doesn't have anything right now. It would also be nice for people who currently already carry both a MBA and an iPad.

I can think of some situations where it would be nice to instead of a MBA and an iPad have a device like this. Like let's say that you are working on something in the office and you sync it to the cloud and yadda yadda yadda. You go to work on it from home or somewhere but oh shoot internet is down...can't pull it from the cloud. But since your MBA is really your iPad, whatever you were working on is right there with you.

I dunno it is really the device that I was kind of hoping the surface would have been. Even if it is a small market...I think people would eat it up. College students would think they need it. Keyboards for the iPad seem to be pretty popular because people seem to like that typing experience. It is true that most people don't NEED a laptop and are perfectly fine with a tablet. But as someone who uses a laptop on a regular basis, it would be awesome if my laptop could deliver a tablet experience on par with an iPad as well. Having to sync things to the cloud and transfer stuff back and forth to me is annoying. It would be nice if it was just all there including when I'm not connected.