All iPads Where is Apple's rebuttal to Microsoft Surface?

[ZombiePete]

tablet = ipad, qed.

or not. i dont really need apps and games--i need a solid pen experience, access to x86 software and enough screen real estate to write out notes while reading technical pdf's. oh, and i need a great browser. sometimes, with flash. and i can get all these things on a surface.

i think there is enough room in the world for two tablet paradigms

I didn't say that there was no market for the Surface; in fact I acknowledged that the Surface is certainly has an interested audience, though I believe that audience is pretty small. Your list of necessary tablet components basically described a laptop that you can write on, which I think is a fair description of the Surface (though the keyboard is subpar for a laptop). Just like every other tablet PC OEMs have been trying to pass off over the past two decades or so.

Fine, the iPad isn't the only definition of what a tablet can be; I accept the premise of your post and that's not really the point I was trying to convey. I just don't think that for the vast majority of consumers out there that 8.1 provides the expected tablet experience of today.

 

[Charliebird]

You can add me to the list of people interested in a Surface pro 3. The more I look at it the more impressed I am. The screen is amazing and the pen adds nice utility. I'm planning to save up for one and am on the lookout for a deal. I still think my rmini will be a nice compliment to it. Of course rmini's go nicely with anything.

 

[nixiemaiden]

You can add me to the list of people interested in a Surface pro 3. The more I look at it the more impressed I am. The screen is amazing and the pen adds nice utility. I'm planning to save up for one and am on the lookout for a deal. I still think my rmini will be a nice compliment to it. Of course rmini's go nicely with anything.

I ended up ordering a Surface Pro 3 to replace my old Asus laptop (thing is a beast) and my iPad 2. I went to Best Buy twice this week and messed around with all of the tablet/laptop combos. I tried the keyboards on most of the laptops and I didn't really find the Surface Pro 3 any worse than the others (and yes I'm including the Macs). I can understand how on a lap it would be a different story but I hardly ever use my laptop on my lap anyway. I am still crossing my fingers that they release a power keyboard cover for it like they did for the old surface models.

I do agree though that it is not going to be a total iPad replacement. It can easily replace my iPad 2 because that has been so frustrating to use lately and apps constantly crash on me but it won't replace my rmini. I will probably use my rmini less around the house but it is still the only tablet that fits in my purse so goes everywhere with me. I still can't see myself bringing the surface pro to a doctor's appointment and using it in the waiting room. I can't see myself bringing it to a theme park to take pictures of everything. (I wouldn't do this with the mini either but I can't believe how many people I have seen using a full sized iPad as a camera while on vacation. Half the time I don't even like bringing my phone because I hate having to carry stuff or worry about it getting wet if it rains and people are walking around with iPads).

 

[robertosh]

T

Secondly, apple very rarely "responds" to what a competitor does.

Well in the last times they are doing it very often: Macbook air 11.6, ipad mini and now with bigger iPhones.

 

[sracer]

Well in the last times they are doing it very often: Macbook air 11.6, ipad mini and now with bigger iPhones.

I can see how the iPad mini and larger iPhones are responses to competitors, but what is the 11.6" MBA a response to?

 

[Charliebird]

At the very least Apple needs to start getting serious about putting a retina screen on MacBook Air's. MacBook Air's just looked dated without it.

 

[tdale]

No. Just no. If the iPad doesn't work for you, that's fine. That doesn't give you the right to make sweeping generalizations that it doesn't work, period, and sure doesn't give you the right to flat out lie about the functionality of certain apps like you did.

Everyone uses their devices differently. "Do everything" has very different meanings as a result. For some, the iPad can indeed do everything, for others, they still need a laptop for some tasks. That is what you need to understand.

The correct way to state this is that a desktop device such as an MBA or PC can do EVERYTHING. A tablet device falls short, particularly an iPad due to its restrictions, its a lite OS. Android tablets can do much more

SP3 can do everything as its a full desktop OS as well as the included Metro tablet OS.

To say that for some an iPad can do everything is also correct, but the point of this thread is about full OS devices. Macbook, PC, SP3. iPad doesn't fit into that category. If all you do is use iPad apps, email, web, then you have no interest anyway in a Macbook, PC, or SP3

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Well in the last times they are doing it very often: Macbook air 11.6, ipad mini and now with bigger iPhones.

And they are finally freeing up iOS as well. Thats a biggie, there are less and less complaints about iOS restrictions, I even see Android users wishing to go to iPhones now, that the screen is larger and more so, that the OS is becoming less lite as in iOS 8

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I said it before and I will say it again. I see Apple users very interested in the SP3 as that is a very nice device, and have no issues moving those tasks from OSX to Windows. If there is a reason to rebut the SP3, Apple needs to read this thread

 

[rowspaxe]

The correct way to state this is that a desktop device such as an MBA or PC can do EVERYTHING. A tablet device falls short, particularly an iPad due to its restrictions, its a lite OS.

disagree. ios offers access to an unlimited amount of games and apps that are not available on a mac or pc--many at incredibly low prices. And further, the utility of these games and apps is enhanced by using them on a super thin and light device(s).

The sp3 wont replace the ipad--it brings a different tablet experience to the market: pen, one note, extra screen space, etc. Next the apple store, metro/modern apps and xbox media are a joke. Next to the surface pro, the ipads pen and productivity qualities are similarly lacking

Its seems hugely unlikely that any windows software will port to metro/modern. I think adobe recasting the photoshop ui as touch friendly while staying in the desktop space is the future. One could easily imagine metro apps are the real legacy apps in the windows ecosystem

 

[Night Spring]

The correct way to state this is that a desktop device such as an MBA or PC can do EVERYTHING. A tablet device falls short, particularly an iPad due to its restrictions, its a lite OS.

Sure, desktops can do "everything," but they aren't portable. Even laptops aren't all that portable, which is where the tablet form factor comes in. And yes, in order to be portable, tablets couldn't do everything a desktop can do, but, you know, tablets are supposed to be mobile. Nobody complains that a smartphone can't do everything a desktop can do. And I think it's perfectly okay for tablets to not do everything a desktop can do, either. For me, the iPad does several things better than my desktop / laptop, such as -- ebooks, web surfing, quick checking email, texting, calendar and tasks, contacts, casual gaming. If I need to do more heavy duty computing, that can wait until I'm home or at the office.

The Surface tries to be both a tablet and a laptop, but for now, it still leans toward being more of a laptop. After using it for a few days, I just couldn't get over how hot it got. That's acceptable for a laptop, but not for a tablet. Because the Surface is designed to do "everything," it gets hot while playing Match3 games or surfing the web. By ditching the power to do everything, the iPad remains very cool, and it's rare that it gets hot enough to be uncomfortable to touch.

So, yes, the Surface Pro 3 is a very good device, and there will be people who find that it hits their sweet spot for power/portability. But for me, it is too much power and not portable enough. I'm sure someday, technology will advance to the point where it's possible to have a device that is truly mobile while doing "everything." But we are not there yet. And I, for one, am happy to have a choice of a device that lacks some power but is truly mobile. It's a choice that Microsoft never gave us, because they always thought that it was more important to pack as much power as they can into their devices.

 

[tdale]

disagree. ios offers access to an unlimited amount of games and apps that are not available on a mac or pc--many at incredibly low prices. And further, the utility of these games and apps is enhanced by using them on a super thin and light device(s).

The sp3 wont replace the ipad--it brings a different tablet experience to the market: pen, one note, extra screen space, etc. Next the apple store, metro/modern apps and xbox media are a joke. Next to the surface pro, the ipads pen and productivity qualities are similarly lacking

Its seems hugely unlikely that any windows software will port to metro/modern. I think adobe recasting the photoshop ui as touch friendly while staying in the desktop space is the future. One could easily imagine metro apps are the real legacy apps in the windows ecosystem

LOL, sorry thats all I can say. Is the iPad a full OS? No. Is the SP3 a full OS, yes. Metro apps are a joke, that is rather stupid. Same was said of Apple when the App Store arose, same was said of Android when the Play Store arose.

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Sure, desktops can do "everything," but they aren't portable. Even laptops aren't all that portable, which is where the tablet form factor comes in. And yes, in order to be portable, tablets couldn't do everything a desktop can do, but, you know, tablets are supposed to be mobile. Nobody complains that a smartphone can't do everything a desktop can do. And I think it's perfectly okay for tablets to not do everything a desktop can do, either. For me, the iPad does several things better than my desktop / laptop, such as -- ebooks, web surfing, quick checking email, texting, calendar and tasks, contacts, casual gaming. If I need to do more heavy duty computing, that can wait until I'm home or at the office.

The Surface tries to be both a tablet and a laptop, but for now, it still leans toward being more of a laptop. After using it for a few days, I just couldn't get over how hot it got. That's acceptable for a laptop, but not for a tablet. Because the Surface is designed to do "everything," it gets hot while playing Match3 games or surfing the web. By ditching the power to do everything, the iPad remains very cool, and it's rare that it gets hot enough to be uncomfortable to touch.

So, yes, the Surface Pro 3 is a very good device, and there will be people who find that it hits their sweet spot for power/portability. But for me, it is too much power and not portable enough. I'm sure someday, technology will advance to the point where it's possible to have a device that is truly mobile while doing "everything." But we are not there yet. And I, for one, am happy to have a choice of a device that lacks some power but is truly mobile. It's a choice that Microsoft never gave us, because they always thought that it was more important to pack as much power as they can into their devices.

Very true, but I see users saying thats ok. This is an Apple forum, yet there are many buying SP3, and foregoing Apple for Windows, that says something. Just because iPad is this or that doesnt mean its ideal. Some want a full OS in a portable form factor, so they are happy with the less portability than an iPad, others prefer portability over functions. The iPad and the SP3 DO NOT compete. They are different. If you use email and web etc why would you change from an iPad to an SP3???? If you use a full OS why would you consider a iPad??? If Apple had an 11 or 12 inch hybrid, that is the competitor, but that doesn't exist. So, its SP3 vs MBA and iPad combo as that is the equivalent to Win8 and Metro.

Me, I prefer my rMBP for real work, and my iPad Air for consumption. I'd quite consider a screenless MBA where the screen is an iPad Pro, but that doesn't exist.

The worry is how many HERE want an SP3, as the device seems to exceed the OSX vs Win8

 

[sracer]

Me, I prefer my rMBP for real work, and my iPad Air for consumption. I'd quite consider a screenless MBA where the screen is an iPad Pro, but that doesn't exist.

The worry is how many HERE want an SP3, as the device seems to exceed the OSX vs Win8

If there are "many" here who want an SP3 (I don't know that a dozen constitute many) it starts out with the hypothetical proposition of being able to both. (It is only after they own it and use it will that proposition be realized, or not)

Microsoft in their presentation made that the central point of their presentation on the SP3... it can replace both the iPad Air and Macbook Air.

But to do that, the SP3 owner (coming from an Apple perspective) will take a step backward in tablet functionality and a step backward in ultrabook functionality. How far back depends upon an individual's use cases.

Those who want an SP3 but don't own one yet can only estimate how far different things will be. How many of those who own iPads but want an SP3 know that the SP3 has exactly the same (maybe MORE) issues that a Windows desktop or notebook have? Flakey drivers, malware, etc. all the things that might have driven them to Apple in the first place are still there. Or that it has a fan that is audible when doing anything more intense than web browsing? That's just one example, there are many more but you get the point.

Some are willing to give Microsoft a pass because of where Microsoft is coming from... I highly doubt these same people who currently own Apple products (and want an SP3) would be so eager to embrace Apple's version of an SP3 if it had the same deficiencies as the SP3.

 

[ZombiePete]

Very true, but I see users saying thats ok. This is an Apple forum, yet there are many buying SP3, and foregoing Apple for Windows, that says something.

Define "many". By all accounts the Surface tablets haven't been a big hit, period; a few people showing interest on an Apple fan site isn't a very scientific method of measuring overall consumer interest in such a product.

There's a market for almost every product, no matter how niche it is, but it doesn't seem like the market for laptop/tablet hybrids like the Surface is very big, or at least big enough to attract attention from Apple. Microsoft basically tried to create the market for the hybrid in the same way that Apple created (or, more accurately, reinvented) the tablet market, and the results have been less than stellar. It's not necessarily in Apple's interest to go after such a small group of consumers, and though they may lose a dozen or so individuals who are willing to switch from iOS/OSX to Windows 8.1 (shudder), I doubt it'll be reflected in the quarterly reports.

 

[Night Spring]

Or that it has a fan that is audible when doing anything more intense than web browsing?

My partner says the fan came on when we were just web browsing. I can't hear the fan myself, being very hard of hearing, but it just bugged him no end.

 

[Charliebird]

If there are "many" here who want an SP3 (I don't know that a dozen constitute many) it starts out with the hypothetical proposition of being able to both. (It is only after they own it and use it will that proposition be realized, or not)

Off topic question. Where did you get that ridiculous avatar picture?

My apologizes if it's you.

 

[nixiemaiden]

It's not necessarily in Apple's interest to go after such a small group of consumers, and though they may lose a dozen or so individuals who are willing to switch from iOS/OSX to Windows 8.1 (shudder), I doubt it'll be reflected in the quarterly reports.

Not everyone is "switching" either. After getting my SP3, my setup will be iPhone, iPad Mini, Surface Pro 3, and Mac Mini. The Surface Pro 3 is to replace my old Windows Laptop and my iPad 2. There are some things that I prefer Windows for and I am not going to put Windows on my Mac Mini (defeats the purpose of having a Mac in the first place imo) so I will probably always opt for a Windows Laptop.

 

[ZombiePete]

Off topic question. Where did you get that ridiculous avatar picture?

My apologizes if it's you.

http://www.chicagocomedyguide.com/tribute-del-close.htm

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Not everyone is "switching" either. After getting my SP3, my setup will be iPhone, iPad Mini, Surface Pro 3, and Mac Mini. The Surface Pro 3 is to replace my old Windows Laptop and my iPad 2. There are some things that I prefer Windows for and I am not going to put Windows on my Mac Mini (defeats the purpose of having a Mac in the first place imo) so I will probably always opt for a Windows Laptop.

Absolutely true. I still have a desktop that runs Windows that I use as a media server and sometimes to play games. It certainly doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

[sracer]

Off topic question. Where did you get that ridiculous avatar picture?

My apologizes if it's you.

LOL
It is a picture of Del Close from a 1959 comedy album by Del Close and John Brent called "How to Speak Hip"

It's an hilarious take on the beatnik movement that was a "thing" back then. If there were Apple products back then, they'd be using them.

 

[Charliebird]

LOL
It is a picture of Del Close from a 1959 comedy album by Del Close and John Brent called "How to Speak Hip"

It's an hilarious take on the beatnik movement that was a "thing" back then. If there were Apple products back then, they'd be using them.

It's a pretty hilarious avatar. It really gives you an identity.

 

[Night Spring]

I am not going to put Windows on my Mac Mini (defeats the purpose of having a Mac in the first place imo)

How does it defeat the purpose? Dual booting on a Mac with OSX and Windows is so simple using bootcamp. You just boot Windows when you want, then boot back into Mac when you are done. I have Windows on both my iMac and my MBA, and they are the best Windows desktop and laptop I've ever owned.

 

[sracer]

How does it defeat the purpose? Dual booting on a Mac with OSX and Windows is so simple using bootcamp. You just boot Windows when you want, then boot back into Mac when you are done. I have Windows on both my iMac and my MBA, and they are the best Windows desktop and laptop I've ever owned.

I thought bootcamp was cool for the first month of owning a Macbook Pro. The more comfortable I became with OSX (and preferred it) the less desirable it was to boot over to Windows. I then switched to Parallels... running Windows in a VM was a step better. But then Parallels became greedy so I switched to Oracle's free VirtualBox.

Over time, I bit the bullet and found (with one exception) better native OSX alternatives to the apps that I used in a VM. For that one exception, I use WINEskin's winery. Very convenient and fast to fire up that Windows app under OSX.

 

[nixiemaiden]

How does it defeat the purpose? Dual booting on a Mac with OSX and Windows is so simple using bootcamp. You just boot Windows when you want, then boot back into Mac when you are done. I have Windows on both my iMac and my MBA, and they are the best Windows desktop and laptop I've ever owned.

To be honest, the only reason that I got a Mac Mini is because I was in the market for a new desktop machine to use for development and I was interested in using Xcode and learning iOS development. I found that it replaced most of my desktop needs just fine but it doesn't give me a reason to need 2 machines with both Windows and OSX on them.

I would consider doing this to the mini but I would need to buy a second SSD to use as an external drive and do it that way plus purchase a copy of Windows 8. I like the way I have my hard drives set up right now in the mini and can't really see myself partitioning them. I unfortunately have a terrible habit of playing games that require a lot of disk space (i.e. The Sims) and they run so much better from the SSD. I don't think I could use Windows if it was on the other hard drive and my main SSD probably doesn't have enough space to install Windows and leave room for installing programs. I know a lot of people have a lot of success going this route but since I choose to stick with Windows for my laptop, don't really see the need for it.

I think that both operating systems work pretty well and both have their short comings. I honestly have just as many issues with the mini as I ever had with any of my Windows PCs so I don't really prefer one to the other. I think that they both have their places. Just not enough of a place for me to need them on both a desktop and a laptop.

 

[tdale]

If there are "many" here who want an SP3 (I don't know that a dozen constitute many) it starts out with the hypothetical proposition of being able to both. (It is only after they own it and use it will that proposition be realized, or not)

This is an Apple forum, yet , read the number of favourable comments and the desire to get one.

Microsoft in their presentation made that the central point of their presentation on the SP3... it can replace both the iPad Air and Macbook Air.

But to do that, the SP3 owner (coming from an Apple perspective) will take a step backward in tablet functionality and a step backward in ultrabook functionality. How far back depends upon an individual's use cases.

Step backward??? iOS is restricted, Win8 isn't. I cannot compare the screen and smoothness though, if thats what you mean? Given the speed of the SP3 I assume that will be fine though

Those who want an SP3 but don't own one yet can only estimate how far different things will be. How many of those who own iPads but want an SP3 know that the SP3 has exactly the same (maybe MORE) issues that a Windows desktop or notebook have? Flakey drivers, malware, etc. all the things that might have driven them to Apple in the first place are still there. Or that it has a fan that is audible when doing anything more intense than web browsing? That's just one example, there are many more but you get the point.

Anecdotal, stated as fact. I've used Windows for years, the days of flakey drivers are well gone. Malware, they use AV. Windows haters/dislikers need to get over it, continual exaggeration. How often do I hear from the Apple world, repair permissions, get Onyx to repair OSX, logic board failures. You need perspective.

Some are willing to give Microsoft a pass because of where Microsoft is coming from... I highly doubt these same people who currently own Apple products (and want an SP3) would be so eager to embrace Apple's version of an SP3 if it had the same deficiencies as the SP3.

Your stated as fact, anecdotal deficiencies. I'm not surprised there is a positive reaction on this Apple forum, if there was a really cool Android phone, there would be too. But to see Apple users happy to move from OSX to Windows just because of one nice piece of innovative hardware, I am still surprised. I am an Apple user, recently switcher. If I wish to buy a device, its Apple, then I see what options I have. SP3 is going against that typical trend.

As to whether the SP3 lives up to its promise, time will tell

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Define "many". By all accounts the Surface tablets haven't been a big hit, period; a few people showing interest on an Apple fan site isn't a very scientific method of measuring overall consumer interest in such a product.

There's a market for almost every product, no matter how niche it is, but it doesn't seem like the market for laptop/tablet hybrids like the Surface is very big, or at least big enough to attract attention from Apple. Microsoft basically tried to create the market for the hybrid in the same way that Apple created (or, more accurately, reinvented) the tablet market, and the results have been less than stellar. It's not necessarily in Apple's interest to go after such a small group of consumers, and though they may lose a dozen or so individuals who are willing to switch from iOS/OSX to Windows 8.1 (shudder), I doubt it'll be reflected in the quarterly reports.

How many use a laptop?
How many use a tablet?

Thats the potential market, huge. Its not a niche. Two old products melded into one. Tablet heavier, yes, screen bugger, cool.

I just wonder what if the comments here would be mirrored if Apple did this first?

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Not everyone is "switching" either. After getting my SP3, my setup will be iPhone, iPad Mini, Surface Pro 3, and Mac Mini. The Surface Pro 3 is to replace my old Windows Laptop and my iPad 2. There are some things that I prefer Windows for and I am not going to put Windows on my Mac Mini (defeats the purpose of having a Mac in the first place imo) so I will probably always opt for a Windows Laptop.

Great, post from a new SP3 user. Due to the promise of the SP3, Apple has lost a tablet sale, and not got a potential MBA sale.

Can you advise why you didn't get a MBA to go with the iPad2? I am interested in the SP3 seeming to cause an ease for Apple users to go to Windows. I don't say that as a criticism, its just a new theme IMHP

 

[Night Spring]

Step backward??? iOS is restricted, Win8 isn't. I cannot compare the screen and smoothness though, if thats what you mean?

It's backwards in terms of portability (is bigger and heavier than the Air), and in terms of comfort of use (gets hot, edges are too sharp to hold in hand for extended period of time). Yes, for that lack of portability, you get a bigger screen and more functionality. But for the ways in which I want to use a tablet, portability matters more than functionality. So anything taking away from portability is a step backwards.

Case in point, a few of us decided to meet at a bar to watch the World Cup match today. In order to grab a good seat, I went to the bar an hour before the match started, taking my iPad with me. Grabbed a few seats, and sat there tapping away on a work document on my iPad until the rest of the group arrived a few minutes before the game started. Got the work done that was due today, while our group got to enjoy the game in very good seats.

Could I have done the same with the Surface? Possibly, yes, but the larger bulk of the Surface would have been more conpiscuous, and awkward in the limited space of the bar.

How many use a laptop?
How many use a tablet?

Thats the potential market, huge. Its not a niche.

The potential market for the Surface is not laptop users + tablet users. It's people who use both. People who use only one or the other wouldn't want a Surface -- they are good with just their tablet or their laptop, what would they do with a hybrid? And since at least some of the people who use both don't mind having two separate devices, the market for Surface just isn't as big as you think it is.

 

[tdale]

It's backwards in terms of portability (is bigger and heavier than the Air), and in terms of comfort of use (gets hot, edges are too sharp to hold in hand for extended period of time). Yes, for that lack of portability, you get a bigger screen and more functionality. But for the ways in which I want to use a tablet, portability matters more than functionality. So anything taking away from portability is a step backwards.

Case in point, a few of us decided to meet at a bar to watch the World Cup match today. In order to grab a good seat, I went to the bar an hour before the match started, taking my iPad with me. Grabbed a few seats, and sat there tapping away on a work document on my iPad until the rest of the group arrived a few minutes before the game started. Got the work done that was due today, while our group got to enjoy the game in very good seats.

Could I have done the same with the Surface? Possibly, yes, but the larger bulk of the Surface would have been more conpiscuous, and awkward in the limited space of the bar.




The potential market for the Surface is not laptop users + tablet users. It's people who use both. People who use only one or the other wouldn't want a Surface -- they are good with just their tablet or their laptop, what would they do with a hybrid? And since at least some of the people who use both don't mind having two separate devices, the market for Surface just isn't as big as you think it is.

Agree. From what Ive read some are happy to forego form factor, off course others aren't. Screensize is much bigger, again at the cost of weight

Yes, my mistake, I did mean those that use both which I imagine is the bulk of tablet users

 

[nixiemaiden]

Great, post from a new SP3 user. Due to the promise of the SP3, Apple has lost a tablet sale, and not got a potential MBA sale.

Can you advise why you didn't get a MBA to go with the iPad2? I am interested in the SP3 seeming to cause an ease for Apple users to go to Windows. I don't say that as a criticism, its just a new theme IMHP

First off I want to point out that I don't really identify myself as an "Apple user" I prefer iPads and iPhones to other tablets and phones I have tried (all android) but as far as computers go, I don't really have a preference. It is nice to be able to go back and forth.

As far as the ipad2, I am to the point where I mostly use my mini now. I prefer the larger screen of the ipad 2 but it is impossible to do anything on it. I am constantly having apps crash on me, I can't open more than 1 tab in Safari without it reloading, just a lot of little things.

I played with the surface pro at best buy and everything about it impressed me. The screen is gorgeous, the stylus is awesome and apparently you can buy a $10 stylus that works just as well (minus the Bluetooth feature), I think they will release a power type cover in the future to improve battery life. Windows 8 will take some getting used to but I'm still getting used to osx as well.