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Give me an iPad that can run "desktop-like" programs and THERE'S your "rebuttal".

You could have left everything in your post out except for this bit. That is exactly the answer. Take the training wheels off of iOS and unlock all the accessability and features that are already there but hidden and locked away from the end user. Make it truly OSX with a touch UI layered over it, like they have been telling us since the original iPhone. Jailbreakers know it is a fully fledged OS. It wouldn't even have to look any different. Just give us apps to access the file system, unlock full desktop style multitasking with virtual memory and paging.

It is very possible to build apps just as powerful as their desktop brethren. Just use a touch UI layer over the same code. Of course you have to expend the effort of designing a proper touch UI, but I am sure Apple could provide developer tools to make this much easier than it first appears.
 
I've been using the iPad since the first one and I use it a lot but if I didn't get it from work I probably never would have bought one.

I've been using MBP for three years now and I love the touchpad and the finish of the product.

When it comes to operating systems I don't have any big problems with most of them. I need to work with them all, even iSeries, AIX, Linux and so on. All of them have problems and benefits. I even like Windows 8 and run it on three of my computers.

I picked up a Surface Pro 2 with typecover 2 before Christmas and I can just say that I love it. (Typing this on my iPad though, I'm on vacation and I have hooked up my Surface to the TV and watching some TV series I brought with me. This is the first vacation since the nineties that I don't bring a laptop)

Pros: I'm usually on call and be able to just bring the surface and be able to connect to costumers is a great plus. The processing power on the Surface is just awesome. I can run multiple virtual machines on it. Can even play rather sophisticated games. I use it with Phoenix, a RC Helicopter and Plane simulator. I play LotRO from time to time. Battery Life is great and even when the fans runs it is very quite. The docking station makes it a viable workstation at work.
I often rip the keyboard away and sit in the sofa and read books and it is good as my iPad. (Almost, I wish it was SP3 with its aspect)
I like the stand. If you use it the lap gaming and it starts to get hot you don't burn your legs.

The cons: I wish there is somewhere to store the pen. (It will be there for SP3)
The touchpad isn't good but I usually have a Bluetooth mouse with me.
I wish it could take a SIM so it is always connected. Now I need to use my iPhone when I'm outside WiFi.
It is a little thick and it could use some rounder edges.

So I would love to see Apple to bring something, full OSX, touchscreen, pen and 3G. AND USB! When I'm on vacation and takes a lot of pictures, I store them on at least one USB disk and internal storage. (Usually I bring 2 USB drives, I have lost hard drives and pictures)
 
It's been nearly three years now since we saw Microsoft tease what they thought Surface could be. Now with the Surface Pro 3 they've been able to refine their product down to what is a pretty sweet rig.

My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal?

No where. The Surface isn't a threat to the iPad, so why would they respond to it
 
No where. The Surface isn't a threat to the iPad, so why would they respond to it

They must do something, other wise they will left behind
I will love to have real pen like the surface.
so now I need to keep my PC desktop, my MBP 17" (love it) my iPad mini , the iPad air and the iPhone ,
 
They must do something, other wise they will left behind
I will love to have real pen like the surface.
so now I need to keep my PC desktop, my MBP 17" (love it) my iPad mini , the iPad air and the iPhone ,

They haven't done anything yet and haven't been left behind. So they could be just fine.

As for the 'real pen' that is a geek users concern and might never happen. If it's that big of a deal, then go buy a Surface. Meanwhile the other 95% that don't care about the pen issue will keep buying iPads if that is what they want
 
You could have left everything in your post out except for this bit. That is exactly the answer. Take the training wheels off of iOS and unlock all the accessability and features that are already there but hidden and locked away from the end user. Make it truly OSX with a touch UI layered over it, like they have been telling us since the original iPhone. Jailbreakers know it is a fully fledged OS. It wouldn't even have to look any different. Just give us apps to access the file system, unlock full desktop style multitasking with virtual memory and paging.

It is very possible to build apps just as powerful as their desktop brethren. Just use a touch UI layer over the same code. Of course you have to expend the effort of designing a proper touch UI, but I am sure Apple could provide developer tools to make this much easier than it first appears.

I think they could still accomplish the goal of beefing the software up without using decades old methods/UIs for filesystem and the like....

I was speaking more on the developer side than anything. Apps are where the real work is done in iOS. Devs need to get more creative and companies need to FULLY invest in mobile technology. I feel like some of the bigger players are still feeling the mobile space out - introducing crippled versions of popular software....

The power of the device isn't the issue.

As for the whole filesystem stuff - I believe the basis for a new type of "file system" currently exists in iOS. The problem is sharing between apps. iBooks, Camera Roll and iWork all work extremely well as "folders" to hold files in. The issue arises in how the files are shared with other apps and how it's all stored.

I think iOS 8 will address some of this. I also don't think we'll ever see the decades old desktop file system in iOS. I think Apple is attempting something different. I, for one, have little issue with how it works now and would like to see how it evolves rather than revert to something that's been around for a long time.

If Apple can come up with a better way - one that merges on-device storage with cloud storage - I'm all for it. Just think the keys are opening up intra-app sharing and tweaking dev tools and iOS slightly to make it all more robust.

No need for this on an iPhone.....
 

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wow, we have been hearing arguments like this since day -1.
Don't you people get that a tablet is a tablet, it forced the developers to rethink their designs, using Skype, mail, Facebook or whatever on the iPad is such a thrill, such a joy and such delight because it is one app at a time, it's redesigned for that and so on ?

I too have had an iPad since iPad 1, and slowly followed the trends. Having tried both VNC apps, dedicated remote apps and many not-so-designed apps you very fast grow tired of the "dragging windows around", trying to hit the minimise buttons, trying to type on the on-screen keyboard while blocking off half of Word.

Come on, the iPad is a tablet and the apps needs to be tablet.
yes they might be able to run Photoshop, Maya, counterstrike and whatelsehaveyounot, but imagine the use of a finger to hit the right switch, the way the on screen keyboard needs to work or whatever.

The iPad was different because it didn't try to be a full fledge computer...and when I am using my iPad (mostly leisure) Reddit is not being interrupted by tweets or calendar appointments, neither is Youtube app being disrupted by chat sessions or "critical update is available for Office", it's all about what the mac was sent out to do...just work.
What if they listened to your whining ? and made e.g. 3 GB RAM, then all iPads sold before would no longer be able to run the latest updates of apps and who would develop serious apps for the Appstore ? Photoshop and Maya would remain "Desktop-mainly" and never really take the tablet market serious, esp. if OS X was converted over on the iPad.
As a developer having the option to develop for desktop and tablet or just tablet, you would pick the way to hit the most potential users.

just my 32 cents
 
Your points are all valid but you have to keep in mind one thing. How many "power users" do you truly think there are going to be in regards to using a tablet? That was rhetorical so no need for a defined answer. The Surface Pro 3 keynote made it seem like the masses would need those functions but truthfully it ain't so. Those are niche features for a niche product for niche customer.

There's not enough of the masses that needs a product with all those features and come on man, no matter what pair of "decent" headphones Apple gives with the iPad most people will end up using their own. Is it really that important to get a pair of headphones in the box with your tablet?

The features I stated e.g. Multi window shouldn't be that hard to get in, just to be more competitive, I know the iPad sells bucket loads but why not add something like Multi window on a device let this with such a magnificent display? I may have asked for too much WRT MicroUSB 3.0 and MicroSD, those are pipe dreams.

WRT headphones, my main point was to atleast get something nice in the packaging of the iPad, be it headphones, stylus etc... Sorry I didn't elaborate on that, I was between exams and tired from studying.

I just wish we got a little more with the iPad, you know?

I thoroughly enjoy iOS in tablet form, I pick it up, do what I want and it just works, but would really hurt Apple to add a little more especially with the competition gaining when we talk on a global scale.
 
The features I stated e.g. Multi window shouldn't be that hard to get in, just to be more competitive, I know the iPad sells bucket loads but why not add something like Multi window on a device let this with such a magnificent display?.

Well, there are rumors that iOS 8 will have multi-windows, so you might get your wish. However, I think the following comment on Daring Fireball makes a good point.:
I’m very curious to see how you get into (and back out of) this [multi-window] mode, though. It’s easy to say you want to see two apps side-by-side on the iPad. It’s not easy at all to implement such a feature without losing the wonderful can’t get lost/can’t get confused about where you are or how you got there simplicity of the iPad today.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2014/05/13/gurman-ios-8
 
Well, there are rumors that iOS 8 will have multi-windows, so you might get your wish. However, I think the following comment on Daring Fireball makes a good point.:

" It’s not easy at all to implement such a feature without losing the wonderful can’t get lost/can’t get confused about where you are or how you got there simplicity of the iPad today."

I fail to see why it is not easy to implement. For example: The touch gestures for multi-windows on the Surface 2 are intuitive and simple. Now if the issue is, "how does Apple implement it in way that is intuitive and yet acts differently than what has come before" then that is another thing.

It's not like people will be forced to use multi-window... they could still operate in the fullscreen mode they know and love.
 
@ the thread title:

Why would you "rebut" a product that sells far and away less?
 
I fail to see why it is not easy to implement. For example: The touch gestures for multi-windows on the Surface 2 are intuitive and simple. Now if the issue is, "how does Apple implement it in way that is intuitive and yet acts differently than what has come before" then that is another thing.

It's not like people will be forced to use multi-window... they could still operate in the fullscreen mode they know and love.

I haven't used the Surface myself, so I don't know what the gestures are. I remember reading about it somewhere but I've forgotten. And you are right, of course, about people not having to use multi-windows if they don't want to. Which leads me to wonder what percentage of iPad users would actually use it, if it was implemented. I can't even teach my mom or my boss to use the double-click to get the task switcher view. They just push the home button once to go back to home screen, then find the icon for the app they want to switch to. Once in a while, I'll remind them that the function is there, but they never remember it.
 
I haven't used the Surface myself, so I don't know what the gestures are. I remember reading about it somewhere but I've forgotten. And you are right, of course, about people not having to use multi-windows if they don't want to. Which leads me to wonder what percentage of iPad users would actually use it, if it was implemented. I can't even teach my mom or my boss to use the double-click to get the task switcher view. They just push the home button once to go back to home screen, then find the icon for the app they want to switch to. Once in a while, I'll remind them that the function is there, but they never remember it.
Multi-windows is like power windows and door locks on a car. Back in the day, those were optional equipment and many didn't see the "need" for them. But once they became standard equipment, they're now a necessity. :)
 
Multi-windows is like power windows and door locks on a car. Back in the day, those were optional equipment and many didn't see the "need" for them. But once they became standard equipment, they're now a necessity. :)

Yes, but you didn't have people forgetting how to use car power windows and door locks. I'm not arguing that multi-windows aren't useful in certain situations, I'm just doubting if anybody will ever figure out how to implement them so people don't forget how to enter that mode.
 
I don't know that Apple cares much to respond to the Surface. They have their product road maps and update, release them on their own timetable, generally, regardless of what other companies are doing.

Not only that, I'm seeing more reviews comparing the Surface to the MacBook Air than the iPad.


Says it all when it comes to Apple needing to rebut the S3.
 
You could have left everything in your post out except for this bit. That is exactly the answer. Take the training wheels off of iOS and unlock all the accessability and features that are already there but hidden and locked away from the end user. Make it truly OSX with a touch UI layered over it, like they have been telling us since the original iPhone. Jailbreakers know it is a fully fledged OS. It wouldn't even have to look any different. Just give us apps to access the file system, unlock full desktop style multitasking with virtual memory and paging.

It is very possible to build apps just as powerful as their desktop brethren. Just use a touch UI layer over the same code. Of course you have to expend the effort of designing a proper touch UI, but I am sure Apple could provide developer tools to make this much easier than it first appears.

This all sounds great in theory but at some point to make iPads do all that starts to take away from what makes them such a great tablet. MBPs and MBAs handle those tasks you mention for people. The iPads perfect dimensions, weight, ease of transport and especially worry-free OS does mean something and has to take a hit if you do all this.

Goes back to my belief that separate devices that excel at their tasks are the way I like it. Versus trying to build the jack of all trades system. The surface looks to me like a very nice laptop but a fairly meh tablet.
 
It's been nearly three years now since we saw Microsoft tease what they thought Surface could be. Now with the Surface Pro 3 they've been able to refine their product down to what is a pretty sweet rig.

My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal?
Imagine a "tablet" not much thicker or heavier than the iPad Air running a fully fledged version of OS X, with 8GB RAM and a powerful processor.

Honestly I can't see why this wouldn't be an area Apple would miss.
Thoughts?

My thought is that I don't see iOS and OSX converging anytime soon. Sure, they may share similar design language, and you will see more apps and services from both sides appearing on the other, but for most part, they will remain as 2 separate and distinct platforms.

I would imagine Apple's answer to be a 64-bit quad-core iPad running iOS with more powerful features like better inter-app communication. This would pave the way for more powerful apps, which in turn leads to new use cases for the iPad.

IMO, the iPad is fine from a hardware perspective. It's just the software which still needs a ton of work.
 
I think they could still accomplish the goal of beefing the software up without using decades old methods/UIs for filesystem and the like....

I was speaking more on the developer side than anything. Apps are where the real work is done in iOS. Devs need to get more creative and companies need to FULLY invest in mobile technology. I feel like some of the bigger players are still feeling the mobile space out - introducing crippled versions of popular software....

The power of the device isn't the issue.

As for the whole filesystem stuff - I believe the basis for a new type of "file system" currently exists in iOS. The problem is sharing between apps. iBooks, Camera Roll and iWork all work extremely well as "folders" to hold files in. The issue arises in how the files are shared with other apps and how it's all stored.

I think iOS 8 will address some of this. I also don't think we'll ever see the decades old desktop file system in iOS. I think Apple is attempting something different. I, for one, have little issue with how it works now and would like to see how it evolves rather than revert to something that's been around for a long time.

If Apple can come up with a better way - one that merges on-device storage with cloud storage - I'm all for it. Just think the keys are opening up intra-app sharing and tweaking dev tools and iOS slightly to make it all more robust.

No need for this on an iPhone.....

I agree with you for the most part. The problem that currently arises is that you have to open up an app to get at a file, but that app can't see anything but its native file type. If there was a catch all file system "app" you could go there to open files, and the appropriate app would open it automatically with one tap. Tap and hold would bring up the option to "open with/open in" some other app than its native one.

Basically I think the way dropbox works with iOS is excellent. That's all that's needed, really. iCloud already works the same way but it is either on or off, so you either save everything locally or nothing, and you can't keep different file types that are related to each other (such as projects, like "Corporate Budget 2014" with Numbers, Keynote, PDF, notes, etc) in the same place, meaning you have to duplicate iCloud folders and other file system resources like dropbox, because saving things in iBook is a nightmare.

One way of looking at it is that is is an app based storage system as opposed to a file based storage system. Its just that it doesn't seem this is the most efficient way of organising things for productivity, though for consumption it makes a lot of sense, as movies, magazines, books, comics, songs, etc. feel natural that way because you almost have been storing them that way already.

This is just my humble opinion of course, but I feel that Apple has been a bit too short-sighted here, as the implementation of the file system seems more consumption centric than creation centric, and even though I can literally do every single thing I need to do both personally and professionally on an iPad, it is a much more cumbersome workflow and not nearly as efficient as doing the same stuff on my MBA.

The way to streamline this is to actually give proper desktop implementation of multi-tasking (iDevices are powerful enough for this nowadays) as well as inter-app communication, and a better implementation of how they envision the file system working in a productivity centric environment.
 
I agree with you for the most part. The problem that currently arises is that you have to open up an app to get at a file, but that app can't see anything but its native file type. If there was a catch all file system "app" you could go there to open files, and the appropriate app would open it automatically with one tap. Tap and hold would bring up the option to "open with/open in" some other app than its native one.

Basically I think the way dropbox works with iOS is excellent. That's all that's needed, really. iCloud already works the same way but it is either on or off, so you either save everything locally or nothing, and you can't keep different file types that are related to each other (such as projects, like "Corporate Budget 2014" with Numbers, Keynote, PDF, notes, etc) in the same place, meaning you have to duplicate iCloud folders and other file system resources like dropbox, because saving things in iBook is a nightmare.

One way of looking at it is that is is an app based storage system as opposed to a file based storage system. Its just that it doesn't seem this is the most efficient way of organising things for productivity, though for consumption it makes a lot of sense, as movies, magazines, books, comics, songs, etc. feel natural that way because you almost have been storing them that way already.

This is just my humble opinion of course, but I feel that Apple has been a bit too short-sighted here, as the implementation of the file system seems more consumption centric than creation centric, and even though I can literally do every single thing I need to do both personally and professionally on an iPad, it is a much more cumbersome workflow and not nearly as efficient as doing the same stuff on my MBA.

The way to streamline this is to actually give proper desktop implementation of multi-tasking (iDevices are powerful enough for this nowadays) as well as inter-app communication, and a better implementation of how they envision the file system working in a productivity centric environment.

I agree with you that the iPad definitely needs to become more "pro" in allowing more work to be done, but I disagree that going back to the desktop is the way to go.

I don't believe the future of the iPad is to become a better PC, and in this aspect, I don't think that features like a file manager or multiple windows aka desktop multitasking is necessary the right forward.

I don't know what might make for a better solution, but I would rather Apple keep plugging away until they find it, rather than settle on the aforementioned features as a stop-gap measure.
 
My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal

Not sure what you mean by rebuttal. Do you mean:
  • literally, a rebuttal?
  • or a competing product?
  • or maybe just a response to the MS announcement?

Apple's rebuttal of a desktop OS in a tablet is simply the fact that they don't do one. It's a classy response that doesn't draw attention to their competitors. Because sometimes the best way to win a debate is to say and do nothing.

Apple's competing product in that sector doesn't exist - which is a quiet rebuttal through non-participation.

Apple's response to the MS announcement is, again, to do nothing. Why draw attention to a competitor? Let them quietly fail on their own. Even if Apple had a competing product in the pipeline, why pre-announce it? All that would do is signal to the market that MS is on to something. Why do that before you're ready to ship your own competing product?
 
As for the 'real pen' that is a geek users concern and might never happen. If it's that big of a deal, then go buy a Surface.
I don't know that it's only a "geek user" concern. I am in the medical field and use my iPad at work. Aside from reading information, I use Notability and a capacitive stylus to take notes and have successfully replaced pen and paper with this method. However, I write more slowly than with a pen and paper. That partly has to do with the requirement to write larger, thanks to the fat tip of the capacitive styluses. I've seen other doctors and medical students attempting to bring tablets into their workflow, but the difficulty with entering information causes them to carry the tablet around alongside a fat stack of papers.

I'm speaking for one particular field of work, but I'd be surprised if what I've described was unique to medicine. Gabe from Penny Arcade has given an opinion on the Surface as it works for artists (link is to his thoughts on the original Surface; he has given a few more opinions since then, largely positive, and all dealing with the digitizer feature). As things stand, I continue to use my iPad with the capacitive stylus, but I am very intrigued by the Surface Pro. There are still too many tradeoffs that I'm unwilling to take at this point in time, and I'm still holding out hope that Apple will introduce a pen feature for the iPads eventually.

As far as regular home, non-artsy use goes, I'd agree that there's no need for a pen. But what does Apple have to lose by not offering one? Is it really that expensive? Apple currently has fantastic momentum, and people are trying to implement the iPad into many areas of their lives. The lack of a pen makes this difficult for many, which slows the momentum.
 
As far as regular home, non-artsy use goes, I'd agree that there's no need for a pen. But what does Apple have to lose by not offering one? Is it really that expensive? Apple currently has fantastic momentum, and people are trying to implement the iPad into many areas of their lives. The lack of a pen makes this difficult for many, which slows the momentum.

There is NO lack of a pen. Apple doesn't make one but they don't stop other ones from working and there are plenty out there. Which begs the question, what does Apple have to gain by creating a pen. Other than tons of having to pay out license fees to companies like Wacom for access of patents and/or R&D costs to reinvent the wheel since those patents aren't under FRAND which means the companies can refuse to share.

Microsoft feels those expenses are worth it so yeah for them. It's a gamble to see if being a 'one stop shop' works to give them a leg up. We'll see in a year how that works out.
 
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There is NO lack of a pen. Apple doesn't make one but they don't stop other ones from working and there are plenty out there. Which begs the question, what does Apple have to gain by creating a pen. Other than tons of having to pay out license fees to companies like Wacom for access of patents and/or R&D costs to reinvent the wheel since those patents aren't under FRAND which means the companies can refuse to share.

Furthermore, if Apple made the stylus there would probably not be as many choices available. If there aren't multiple brands and choices Apple gets to set the price.
 
I could almost see using a Surface Pro 3 if I could only have one single device for all my computing needs. However, the Surface Pro 3 isn't available with LTE, so that honesty rules it out for me.

Yes, neither is LTE available built-in on a MacBook Air, but it is available on the iPad/iPad mini.

If LTE were available on the Surface Pro 3, I could envision using one as my one and only computing device.

Presently I use an iMac + iPad as my main two devices with an 11" MBA as the crossover device when necessary.

But in the quest to simplify my life, I could actually see using a SP3 - but I would absolutely require LTE. And a USB dongle the size of a cigarette lighter sticking out the side of the SP3 isn't the solution I'd be happy with. Tethering it to my phone would burn the phone's battery down far too quickly.
 
There is NO lack of a pen.
There is a lack of digitizer-based styluses. Such styluses would require a digitizer to be included in the iPad. Compared with the capacitive styluses that emulate a finger, digitizer styluses allow for greater precision (capacitive styluses have a minimum size that they must be, or else the iPad will reject their input due to regarding it as a stray touch) and have "automatic palm rejection," which allows people to write on the device as they would on paper. Pressure sensitivity is generally better, although there have been some interesting work-arounds with capacitive styluses.

As I said previously, I use a capacitive stylus in my day-to-day work. It requires a lot of interesting work-arounds. I put up with them because I'm a geek and love implementing technology, but most people aren't willing to do that. Put a digitizer into the iPads so that people can use a stylus as if it were a pen with paper and the adoption would be much greater.
 
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