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nomanstool

macrumors member
Oct 4, 2010
90
1
to be fair-- the MS endgame for both surface and windows8 seems to be somewhat in flux. I agree this release is clearly a rebrand of sp as "ultrabook hybrid"--less a "super tablet". Semantcs? Yeah. What I think surface does is give them an "aspirational" product that puts a different spin on the company's image. And they managed not to clutter the surface pro image with a concurrent surface rt release. While many reviewers seemed to feel it wasnt laptop-py enough--everyone seemed to agree it was pretty sweeet

exactly! well its a marketing strategy as well. They tried gunning for the iPad. It didn't work, now they're gunning mac book air / ultra books.
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,598
7,768
If you see Surface Pro 3 as laptop. Its one of the lightest, or probably the lightest core i7 laptop there is with superb battery life.

And I think I would run out and buy one if I could put Windows 7 on it! :D

There is no doubt that the Surface Pro 3 is a great laptop, the question is whether its tablet half will help or hinder it. For now, my gut reaction says "hinder," but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. In any case I'm looking forward to display models coming out in stores so I can give it a try.
 

cnev3

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2012
462
56
Microsoft Office being released for iPad does not bode well for the Surface.

Also the Surface was one of the main reasons that forced Steve Ballmer to step down as CEO, as it reportedly lost billions.

I think the Surface is going to be looked at as Ballmers failure, and I don't see the new CEO investing much in it's future. He's steering Microsoft into focusing on software, hence his decision to make Office cross platform.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
I think the Surface is going to be looked at as Ballmers failure, and I don't see the new CEO investing much in it's future. He's steering Microsoft into focusing on software, hence his decision to make Office cross platform.

Kind of odd the new ceo took the lead at the sp3 introduction? You may be right. The sp3 may be sop to Gates from Nadella. Gates is associated with the first gen tablet pcs
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
It's alright people sitting around and laughing down the Surface and being a typical fanboy,

Except that that's not what's happening here. Up until this post, a lively, balanced discussion was happening.

however Microsoft have now raised their game and have released a product that has serious potential.

How? What exactly do you mean by "raised their game?" "Serious potential" in what ways?

These two catchphrases always come from people who lack actual facts to back up their statements. This isn't the playoffs, it's technology and how people use it. And the reviews are in: three iterations and Microsoft still lacks a real hit. It might get respectable sales from people who will go out of their way to inconvenience themselves because they don't want to use an Apple product for philosophical reasons... cutting off their noses to spite their faces, basically. But when the vast majority of people care about making sure the technology they use works well, The Surface 3 remains an also-ran.

It's basically the Zune, all over again.


When the iPad was released it was designed for browsing and social media, that is it.

Actually no. It was designed as a rich device for eBooks and electronic documents, including magazines, digital newspapers, and textbooks. It was designed as an immersive media player, including video on a screen way larger than a smartphone but still of a comfortable size to fit in your hands. It was designed as an on-the-spot photo viewer and editor. And it was designed to allow people to do core work communication functions without having to carry a laptop.

Not long after, the productivity software showed up, and it continues to do that well. Enough that most people still aren't buying a whole lot of windows tablets.

And oh yeah... it does web browsing and social media, too.

And it was designed to do all of this SIMPLY. Out of the box, it's a one-piece, light and slim device with a long battery life. No flaps or stands to figure out and maybe break later, no annoyingly bad integrated flat, unresponsive keyboard to get used to. Though an iPad user can still add on these things, if they really wanted to.


Users are the most important thing in consumer electronics, yo can add new things that people don't yet know they want but you must give them what they do want as well.

Exactly right. Unfortunately, there are a small but very vocal group of geeks who THINK they know what the majority of users want, but they really don't. The same people who are content with buying a device because it has impressive specs on a sheet of paper, even if the actual user experience is clunky, unrefined, and problematic... and expect all other users to be just fine with spending more time tinkering with their device than doing actual work with it.

And when the sales figures and market share numbers prove these geeks wrong, they simply ignore it and pat each other on the back, repeating empty and meaningless platitudes like "stepped up their game" and "has potential."

Even Steve Jobs lacked vision for the iPad of what it could really be dismissing file systems and the use of a stylus.

You couldn't be more wrong if you said the sky was red. If anything, every Apple product has had a specific vision in mind. Stylii wasn't in the vision because - rightly so - they were viewed as hindrances. They get lost, they limit interaction. They get in the way.

Art is one of the biggest things on a tablet

And there are far more ways to do art than shoving a pointy stick at a screen. iPad users have been demonstrating this for years now.

Tim likes using the slogan "Post-PC Era" a lot

He actually doesn't push it that much... at least not in the way most pundits try to push it. The "Post PC era" Apple promotes, and the "Post PC era" the talking heads and geeks like to think about are two very different things.

In fact, Microsoft has been more pushy of the extremist "Post-PC era" than Apple has. Microsoft has been assuming - wrongly, that people don't want PCs anymore, but would rather have these lousy converged laptop/tablet hybrids. Meanwhile, Apple has been making it clear that they're keeping OS X computers and iOS mobile devices as very separate things that do different jobs better.


A lot of pundits and "industry analysts" use the "Post-PC era" catchphrase, usually in the same breath as "stepping up their game." And they do it to incorrectly suggest that more traditional computers are dead. But that's not the case. The real "Post-PC Era" is actually a time where people aren't forced to use a stationary desktop, or awkwardly balance a laptop on their laps to do simple tasks, as their only means of getting the job done. They remain options, and have their use-cases where they outshine tablets. But tablets have their use cases as well. Users will have their freedom to choose the tool for the task, assuming of course that the geeks and pundits don't muck it up and companies like Microsoft stop believing their hype.

however how can I replace a laptop when I have no accessible file system instead having to rely on half a dozen apps to do the simplest thing.

Again, a tablet does not and should not replace a PC for all things. Tablets have their uses, and laptops/PCs have their uses.


Apple needs to step up their game,


There's that phrase again, "step up their game." With no meaningful explanation what that even means.

I don't think a shed load of Ram is needed or a full OSX system though that would be a massive advantage, however proper stylus support and a file system is as well as a USB port.

Yeah, Apple sells something like this already. Though that stylus thing is still omitted, thankfully.



This really plays in to what Microsoft said at their keynote and which is very true..

It's just really ironic to me that the same people who will make fun of Apple users for blindly agreeing to what Apple execs say in keynotes are turning right around and parroting what Microsoft execs are saying in a keynote, as if it were gospel. And yet, Apple users are the fanboys. :roll eyes:

we all have loads of devices but none of these phones or tablets really do everything we need so we have to have multiple devices and multiple solutions to problems that shouldnt exist. feels stupid really.

The funny thing about the "multiple devices and multiple solutions to problem that shouldn't exist" statement is that the problems don't exist. Microsoft is making up a problem, and then trying to sell people a solution to that made-up problem.

There seems to be this idea that the same device that fits in my pocket should be able to solve all the problems that my desktop computer with dual 27 inch LCD displays solves. That's just not possible. Those two devices exist in the ways they do for different reasons. They solve different problems, and solve them very well. And they would each be really bad at solving the problems the other device was designed to handle.


And so, well made devices may solve several problems, they don't solve everything, because if they tried to, they would do everything badly. While multipurpose devices are nice, there is a limit to how many things a device can do before it stops doing them all well. The Surface line of products is a perfect example. Microsoft has been "stepping up their game" for a few years now with this beast, and people still don't want to buy it, at least not nearly enough to put any dent in iPad sales.
 
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Nevaborn

macrumors 65816
Aug 30, 2013
1,086
327
Except that that's not what's happening here. Up until this post, a lively, balanced discussion was happening.

<SNIP>

I am an Apple user yet genuinely feel Microsoft have a good product now. your jut being a bit belligerent to be honest and can't agree that there is much the iPad can not do and it needs to evolve as a product. It is targeted massively as being a post pc era device and was said numerous times by Tim in past keynotes.

your argument of doing things well up to a point would be true if the iPad could do them at all. It is a stunning device and best in the tablet market due to the OS and refinement. However the SP3 is a good building block of where tablets do need to go and that is accessibility, apps arent the solution to everything.

I wish you would have an open discussion but instead your argumentative. shame.
 
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HenryDJP

Suspended
Nov 25, 2012
5,084
843
United States
I am an Apple user yet genuinely feel Microsoft have a good product now. your jut being a bit belligerent to be honest and can't agree that there is much the iPad can not do and it needs to evolve as a product. It is targeted massively as being a post pc era device and was said numerous times by Tim in past keynotes.

your argument of doing things well up to a point would be true if the iPad could do them at all. It is a stunning device and best in the tablet market due to the OS and refinement. However the SP3 is a good building block of where tablets do need to go and that is accessibility, apps arent the solution to everything.

I wish you would have an open discussion but instead your argumentative. shame.

I didn't see anything argumentative or belligerent about ScaredPoet's post. He made very good and valid points.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
I am an Apple user yet genuinely feel Microsoft have a good product now.

That's great, you're welcome to that opinion. Can you elaborate on why you feel that way?

your jut being a bit belligerent to be honest

Because I disagree with you, I'm being belligerent? In my opinion, it's unfortunate that you think that way. When people discuss things, I prefer when they can explain, in a well-reasoned way, why they think the way they do, so I will ask questions. And when the response is a catch phrase or something that lacks facts, I'm going to point that out.

If all we do is say "I think X is great and if you disagree, you're just being belligerent," then we're not having a discussion. We're just barking at each other.

I'm asking you why you feel the Surface is better. So far all I've gotten are buzz phrases that lack facts. If asking for more than that is being "belligerent," then guilty as charged.


and can't agree that there is much the iPad can not do and it needs to evolve as a product.

All products need to evolve over time. And I made the case that over-convergence is not evolution. It's been tried before and it doesn't work well, yet with the Surface Microsoft is trying to make one device do everything, and has even said so. As a result, the Surface hasn't been selling well, and many people who try it end up coming back to an iPad, as evidenced here on these forums.

The iPad should evolve, and I'm sure it will evolve, as long as Tim Cook doesn't get it in his head that making a thick, heavy block that tried to be both a laptop and a lightweight computing device is the way to go. Microsoft has tried that, and the sales numbers make it clear that while people who haven't been down this road before are kinda intrigued by the idea, the strategy as a whole isn't working too well.

It is targeted massively as being a post pc era device and was said numerous times by Tim in past keynotes.

Apparently, when you snipped 90% of my post, you didn't read about the differences between what "Post PC" really means, and the Microsoft/tech pundit definition. They are two very different things.

So I'll say it again: A Post-PC era is not supposed to be an era where PCs don't exist anymore and people will never use them again, so we should make these clunky all-in-one devices that kinda do PC-things but also kinda do tablet things. "Post-PC" refers to the idea that not every computing job requires that people sit in front of a desk that has a laptop or a desktop on it anymore. Yes, people will still use them for certain things, because they do certain jobs really well. But there are simpler jobs that a simple tablet, phone or other devices will do really nicely.

So, it's not that people won't use PCs anymore. They just won't use them for everything, like how it used to be, when people didn't have a choice.

The key here is simple. When you try to take a PC and make it pretend to be a tablet, the idea stops working. Likewise if you try and say that PCs are dead and tablets will do everything from now on, then you've missed the point.

Unfortunately, a lot of PC makers, and Microsoft, kinda didn't read the memo, and assumed that the iPad meant they need to stop making decent computers and start making these tablet/laptop hybrids that are neat gimmicks for about 30 minutes, but then in the end, people start to wish they had their old computer back, and maybe also a tablet that isn't so complex and so so heavy...

your argument of doing things well up to a point would be true if the iPad could do them at all. It is a stunning device and best in the tablet market due to the OS and refinement.

So... do you believe it CAN do things well, or can't it? You're saying two things here, one right after the other.

However the SP3 is a good building block of where tablets do need to go and that is accessibility,

Okay, accessibility. So educate me, because "Accessibility" can mean a lot of different things to different people. What, in your opinion, is meant by the word accessibility, and what is more accessible about the Surface Pro 3?

apps arent the solution to everything.

So, the Surface Pro 3 is more accessible because it doesn't run apps? Because, last I checked, it does. Apps have existed long before the first tablet computer ever came to be. Why is the iPad's use of them less accessible than when other computing devices employ them, including the Surface Pro 3?


I wish you would have an open discussion but instead your argumentative. shame.

Then instead of calling me names, let's have an open discussion. I've asked my questions. Can you please answer them so we can discuss?
 
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TWO2SEVEN

macrumors 68040
Jun 27, 2010
3,531
741
Plano, TX
Here is some more reason that a rebuttal is not needed:

http://www.t3.com/news/microsoft-surface-sales-just-1-5m-compared-to-ipads-23m


Microsoft has reportedly sold just 1.5 million Surface RT and Surface Pro tablets according to Bloomberg, who claim to have received the figures from sources with knowledge of Microsoft's sales figures.

If true this will be significantly less than the 2 million Microsoft Surface RT tablets which Microsoft had predicted it would sell in the last quarter of 2012. According to the sources Microsoft has sold a little over a million of the Surface RT and just 400,000 Surface Pro models.

The Surface tablet is Microsoft's first real piece of hardware since the Xbox 360 and was designed to reinvigorate the idea of using Windows 8 on a tablet as well as on a computer.

Whilst enthusiasm was initially high it now appears as though third-party hardware manufacturers are also feeling the pain when it comes to Windows 8 tablets with Samsung reportedly pulling its ATIV 8 tablet from Germany.

The RT tablet didn't make it to the US and with distributors reporting poor sales the tech giant has reportedly decided to pull the tablet from German shelves.

Microsoft had hoped that the Surface RT would be able to take on the likes of Apple and Android but with Apple reporting sales of 23 million iPads in that same quarter it appears as though Microsoft still has some way to go.

Source:Bloomberg
 

jonnyb098

macrumors 68040
Nov 16, 2010
3,971
5,332
Michigan
our surface pro 2 users here at the office love them. It's nice to have a full version of windows on a portable device

Funny no one said that 15 years ago when MS had the same type of device. Its really the software that makes it work. Windows 8.0
 

kitsunestudios

macrumors regular
Apr 10, 2012
226
0
I have an iMac and n iPhone, but I also use a Samsung ATIV Pro, which is essentially a Surface Pro with a hinged keyboard and an 11" screen.

It's more useful than an iPad for drawing, extended typing*, browsing Flash content, and playing games (Thanks to Steam's new in-home streaming). I can also occasionally use Adobe CC apps on it to do "real" work.

It's more useful than a laptop for drawing and browsing media.

I'm sold on the concept, although the devil is in the details. The keyboard connection on this model is so flakey that the "extended typing" is mostly theoretical.

If I could combine the bezel, pen and software from the Cintiq Companion; the hinged keyboard from the Lenovo Helix; and the aspect ratio, internal hardware configuration and price-range of the Surface Pro 3, I'd be thrilled.

It's a niche market, and Apple doesn't "need" to make it's own version. If they got it right, I know I'd buy one.
 

temna

macrumors 6502a
May 5, 2008
713
410
And Apple can't even put 2gb Ram in their ios devices, ahahah! 8gb....

Why bother putting in 2gb of ram, their hardware and iOS doesn't need it, yet.

----------

I have an iMac and n iPhone, but I also use a Samsung ATIV Pro, which is essentially a Surface Pro with a hinged keyboard and an 11" screen.

It's more useful than an iPad for drawing, extended typing*, browsing Flash content, and playing games (Thanks to Steam's new in-home streaming). I can also occasionally use Adobe CC apps on it to do "real" work.

It's more useful than a laptop for drawing and browsing media.

I'm sold on the concept, although the devil is in the details. The keyboard connection on this model is so flakey that the "extended typing" is mostly theoretical.

If I could combine the bezel, pen and software from the Cintiq Companion; the hinged keyboard from the Lenovo Helix; and the aspect ratio, internal hardware configuration and price-range of the Surface Pro 3, I'd be thrilled.

It's a niche market, and Apple doesn't "need" to make it's own version. If they got it right, I know I'd buy one.

I have seen some of the amazing graphics done on the iPad, so I'm not sure that is a vote against the iPad. I have a Logitech keyboard folio that does an amazing job for extended typing, though I do wish I could sometimes use a mouse with my iPad. As for Flash, honestly, who cares. That and Java are "standards" that are way past their prime and need to go. Playing games? There are tons of great games out there for the iPad. And isn't Adobe's iPad app suite already pretty damn good and just getting better everyday?

The thing is, with a little imagination and the right apps, there really is very little that can't be done on the iPad. And really, to say otherwise is silly. Most people who have said they can't use the iPad for work just haven't given it a fair shake. The few that I have run into that honestly couldn't use it, it was because of custom software requirements.
 

s2mikey

Suspended
Sep 23, 2013
2,490
4,255
Upstate, NY
I am an Apple user yet genuinely feel Microsoft have a good product now. your jut being a bit belligerent to be honest and can't agree that there is much the iPad can not do and it needs to evolve as a product. It is targeted massively as being a post pc era device and was said numerous times by Tim in past keynotes.

your argument of doing things well up to a point would be true if the iPad could do them at all. It is a stunning device and best in the tablet market due to the OS and refinement. However the SP3 is a good building block of where tablets do need to go and that is accessibility, apps arent the solution to everything.

I wish you would have an open discussion but instead your argumentative. shame.

Why do tablets need to eventually end up being a laptop though? I thought the whole point of a tablet was to be a tablet? Light, svelt, cool, useful without having the baggage of a full blown computer? Don't we have laptops for that already or did I miss something?

Why are people insistent that every single product out there has to be in the same chassis? Let each device perform its task the BEST it can rather than compromise everywhere and be only 50% as good as they can be at everything? Or something like that.

Windows 8 BLOWS anyways so no matter how cool the device is, the engine that runs it is awful. Like Lamborghini styling with a Kia engine in it. Lame.
 

Mockenrue

macrumors 6502
Aug 3, 2013
307
83
Secondly, apple very rarely "responds" to what a competitor does. It has its design philosophy and strategic direction

Apple's outspoken design philosophy criticized small tablets and bigger phones, until the competitors sold a bunch. Apple responded with the iPad mini and iPhone 6.

Apple is smart enough to change their minds when the market calls for it. Nobody seems to believe me on this forum, but I think Apple is more worried about the Chromebook, and will respond to it before the Surface.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
Why do tablets need to eventually end up being a laptop though? .

They don't. The ipad and android tablets serve a market. My question, "Why can't tablets have provide a full pc experience". So wacom, lenovo, microsoft and--until recently--sony have provided takes on this. I dont see the paradigms as being exclusive, or even competitive
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,271
12,994
where hip is spoken
I have seen some of the amazing graphics done on the iPad, so I'm not sure that is a vote against the iPad. I have a Logitech keyboard folio that does an amazing job for extended typing, though I do wish I could sometimes use a mouse with my iPad. As for Flash, honestly, who cares. That and Java are "standards" that are way past their prime and need to go. Playing games? There are tons of great games out there for the iPad. And isn't Adobe's iPad app suite already pretty damn good and just getting better everyday?

The thing is, with a little imagination and the right apps, there really is very little that can't be done on the iPad. And really, to say otherwise is silly.
I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in this thinking.

I don't think that a wholesale new device/OS/philosophy is required... just a few tweaks and refinements to the existing iPad/iOS, and a few minor additions to a new generation of iPads.
 

Black Magic

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2012
2,787
1,499
I'm surprised this thread even exists to be honest with you. Rebuttal? Why would Apple need to chase a failed product offering from a company that's last place in the market? Microsoft is chasing Apple, not the other way around.

The point folks keep missing is Microsoft knows that it missed the boat and is trying to create a product (which is really a crappy laptop or high end netbook) to keep the Windows OS generating revenue. Yes, Windows is dying a slow death. They pitch it as a all-in-one tool but the masses have already voted with their wallets/purses saying NO! We are now on Round 3 and folks here think it's going to be different?
 

iSee

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2004
3,539
272
It's been nearly three years now since we saw Microsoft tease what they thought Surface could be. Now with the Surface Pro 3 they've been able to refine their product down to what is a pretty sweet rig.

My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal?
Imagine a "tablet" not much thicker or heavier than the iPad Air running a fully fledged version of OS X, with 8GB RAM and a powerful processor.

Honestly I can't see why this wouldn't be an area Apple would miss.
Thoughts?

I think the Macbook Air is a better-ultra light laptop than the Surface 3 (I think there are a lot of Windows-based ultra-light laptops that are better laptops, too).

I think the iPad Air is a much better tablet.
 

AttilaTheHun

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2010
1,229
201
USA
I think the Macbook Air is a better-ultra light laptop than the Surface 3 (I think there are a lot of Windows-based ultra-light laptops that are better laptops, too).

I think the iPad Air is a much better tablet.

I agree with all that said above except the last sentence,

I wish my iPad air has the capability of stylus,
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
Why bother putting in 2gb of ram, their hardware and iOS doesn't need it, yet.

I have seen some of the amazing graphics done on the iPad, so I'm not sure that is a vote against the iPad. .

The fact that some people have the time and inclination to achieve good results with subpar tools is laudable, but hardly validates the tool. I would just say use the wacom on surface 2 and compare it to a capacitative pen on the ipad. That said there are many first rate art apps in the apple store whicn just makes the whole issue more frustrating.
 

scaredpoet

macrumors 604
Apr 6, 2007
6,627
342
The fact that some people have the time and inclination to achieve good results with subpar tools is laudable, but hardly validates the tool.

The fact that a large number of people seem just fine with working with these tools, especially when allegedly better ones exist, hardly validates your premise that the tools in question are subpar.
 

nomanstool

macrumors member
Oct 4, 2010
90
1
And I think I would run out and buy one if I could put Windows 7 on it! :D

There is no doubt that the Surface Pro 3 is a great laptop, the question is whether its tablet half will help or hinder it. For now, my gut reaction says "hinder," but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. In any case I'm looking forward to display models coming out in stores so I can give it a try.

Time will tell buddy. I myself I'm a bit skeptical on the tablet part. From early reviewers though (the one that was fortunate enough to get a free one from surface 3 pro launch event). They say even though 12" seems to be large for a tablet, they say it 'feels right'.

I'm not a professional illustrator but one interesting bit is the pen input couple that with a full version of Photoshop (desktop) optimized for touch. Its a graphics artist dream! :D

So with regards to tablet, I believe one great use of tablet is for illustration. And that hasn't been harnessed by any other tablet except for the Surface Pro series.
 
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