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Great post. I see little legitimate need that is addressed by "convergence" ...

I don't agree that the surface pro is really a convergent device--although that is likely what microsoft intended. I use my surface pro for notes, pdf reader (with annotation), sketching, etc. Its is a great product but it does not do ipad things as well as the ipad: browsing, kindle reading, etc.

There can be more than one type of tablet device. I suspect that would be true even if apple made an ipad pro.

Pricewise, I think both the surface and ipad are tremendous bargains. I paid $1900 for a mediocre apple laptop in 1995. You can get a mid level surface pro 3 and an ipad mini for that now

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We purchased two surfaces, not the RT crap, the real deal. One self-claimed Windows lover tested it for about a week and returned it for an iPad. The other die-hard Window fan still has it sitting on their desk as a clock and picture frame of their kids. They quietly asked for an iPad after about two months. We will probably not purchase a Surface 3, never know though. Someone may need a digital frame.

Dont take my word for it. Go on amazon or any reseller site and look at the surface reviews. This is a loved product.
 
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I may not be interested in SP3 if I didn't work for a large corporation with a Dell contract that mainly uses all windows computers. I use my MBA at work as much as possible and for the most part it works ... However, mainly using excel sheets or getting into some VPN's it poses a problem for Mac that I haven't even been able to solve with Parallels. I would probably never stop carrying my iPad around because it is very functional, but in addition to a lightweight, hybrid tablet/laptop, both would be a great experience. Of course at home iMac rules the house and that will never change!
 
Apple need to act

It's alright people sitting around and laughing down the Surface and being a typical fanboy, however Microsoft have now raised their game and have released a product that has serious potential.

When the iPad was released it was designed for browsing and social media, that is it. Users are the most important thing in consumer electronics, yo can add new things that people don't yet know they want but you must give them what they do want as well.

Even Steve Jobs lacked vision for the iPad of what it could really be dismissing file systems and the use of a stylus. Art is one of the biggest things on a tablet yet on iPad due to no native stylus support and other screen issues it is a battle that should be far easier than it is.

Tim likes using the slogan "Post-PC Era" a lot however how can I replace a laptop when I have no accessible file system instead having to rely on half a dozen apps to do the simplest thing.

Apple needs to step up their game, I don't think a shed load of Ram is needed or a full OSX system though that would be a massive advantage, however proper stylus support and a file system is as well as a USB port.

put those 3 things in and you can rival the Surface. It is mad they aren't already as it's great being in the markets they are but there is so much of the business sector Apple will be missing through self imposed limitations based on a 8 year old philosophy.

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I may not be interested in SP3 if I didn't work for a large corporation with a Dell contract that mainly uses all windows computers. I use my MBA at work as much as possible and for the most part it works ... However, mainly using excel sheets or getting into some VPN's it poses a problem for Mac that I haven't even been able to solve with Parallels. I would probably never stop carrying my iPad around because it is very functional, but in addition to a lightweight, hybrid tablet/laptop, both would be a great experience. Of course at home iMac rules the house and that will never change!

This really plays in to what Microsoft said at their keynote and which is very true..we all have loads of devices but none of these phones or tablets really do everything we need so we have to have multiple devices and multiple solutions to problems that shouldnt exist. feels stupid really.
 
It's alright people sitting around and laughing down the Surface and being a typical fanboy, however Microsoft have now raised their game and have released a product that has serious potential.

When the iPad was released it was designed for browsing and social media, that is it. Users are the most important thing in consumer electronics, yo can add new things that people don't yet know they want but you must give them what they do want as well.

Even Steve Jobs lacked vision for the iPad of what it could really be dismissing file systems and the use of a stylus. Art is one of the biggest things on a tablet yet on iPad due to no native stylus support and other screen issues it is a battle that should be far easier than it is.

Tim likes using the slogan "Post-PC Era" a lot however how can I replace a laptop when I have no accessible file system instead having to rely on half a dozen apps to do the simplest thing.

Apple needs to step up their game, I don't think a shed load of Ram is needed or a full OSX system though that would be a massive advantage, however proper stylus support and a file system is as well as a USB port.

put those 3 things in and you can rival the Surface. It is mad they aren't already as it's great being in the markets they are but there is so much of the business sector Apple will be missing through self imposed limitations based on a 8 year old philosophy.

In regards to the Surface Pro 3, truthfully, you're sounding a little like that person that you're accusing others of being in regards to the iPad. You couldn't be more wrong stating when the iPad was released it was designed for browsing a social media. Apple never stated or even suggested that. Applications are what make the computer what it is.

Maybe you didn't realize or you forgot that the military uses iPads as their preferred tablet. Hospitals use iPads in their labs. Banking institutions use iPads and near every single bank supports iOS even more so than Android. Educational institutions use iPads. Yeah, I'm sure all of these professional entities use iPads for browsing and social media. :rolleyes: Every one of those entities have specific developed applications for use on the iPad.

Until technology is proven to be a success there's absolutely no financially sound reason for companies to respond to a competitor's new product. So far the Surface has barely scratched the "surface" in terms of making a dent in Apple's market share. The Surface showed a huge financial loss for Microsoft in revenue and stock. So far Surface 2/Pro haven't been widely successful either.

Even with the Surface Pro 3 being a nice device there are people that are just sick of Microsoft's monopoly and domination, want nothing more to do with Windows, will refuse to buy anything with Microsoft's name on it. And whether or not the Microsoft fans have the guts to admit it, truthfully Microsoft and Windows have a tarnished name in regards to viruses and nothing anyone could say would rebuild consumer trust. It's not like Windows is somehow now immune to viruses because it's not and people will keep that feeling about Windows.

Couple that with well accepted alternatives with the iPad being #1 and MacBooks being sold to millions of satisfied customers. Then there's Android that is available for consumers who aren't financially capable of buying Apple or may just want something besides Apple. These are just some of the reasons why Microsoft may no longer be the first choice for many regardless of how great their products are.

The Surface Pro 3 even more so is niche product for the niche consumer. This is not to say Apple shouldn't take notice, because they should but to rebuttal in response to a Microsoft product that hasn't really gotten off the ground, even after 2 generations and caused a huge financial loss for MS isn't something Apple should make a knee jerk reaction to and create something quickly because IMO they are not going to lose hardly any customers over the Surface Pro 3.
I'm speaking from a business-sense perspective. You're speaking from a consumer perspective.

Unless a product is well established and in the hands of many then it's not good practice for a company to instantly respond. Regardless how awesome you think the Surface Pro 3 is, it's the consumer that will tell the story of its success, not the company. Speaking of the company, be prepared for Microsoft to throw high preorder sales numbers out there because they include shipping to retail stores as a "sale" which is typical of them.

The iPad and MacBooks have been a huge success which is why Microsoft is responding every which way they can and spent 90% of their keynote focused on Apple's products. They are threatened and are responding properly. Surface sales are going to have to make a serious dent before Apple needs to respond.

If anything it will sell to the techies but I hardly think they will dump their Apple products for it, despite what some of the techie members here seem to say.

That being said I'm looking forward to see what Apple is going offer their future customers in terms of a next generation portable.
 
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This really plays in to what Microsoft said at their keynote and which is very true..we all have loads of devices but none of these phones or tablets really do everything we need so we have to have multiple devices and multiple solutions to problems that shouldnt exist. feels stupid really.

To me the reason why a single device everywhere doesn't work is screen size and keyboard. Suppose there was a phone-sized computer that did everything a desktop computer did. A phone-size screen would still be too small to work with a large spreadsheet. Working with long text documents is also easier with large screen. So I would need a large monitor on my desk, with a docking station for my phone-size computer, at which point I'd need to add a keyboard so I could interact efficiently with my computer. Now, I have a setup on my desk that takes as much footprint as my current iMac.

So if all my data sync between my phone and my desktop, what really is the difference between having a "single" phone-size computer plus a desktop docking setup, and having an iPhone plus an iMac? I think the difference is less than you would think.
 
They don't need one yet. The surface still has not proven that users want it. They want tablets and laptops, yes, but not a hybrid yet.
 
They don't need one yet. The surface still has not proven that users want it. They want tablets and laptops, yes, but not a hybrid yet.

I agree. The Surface line of devices are excellent (IMO) alternatives to netbooks and ultrabooks. But the 16:9 AR and lack of quality Modern UI apps makes the Surface a fairly subpar tablet.

The Surface Pro 3 going 3:2 certainly addresses one of those points. But the software side of things is going to take a long time (if ever) to reach critical mass.

Software is the hard part. Frankly, I'm quite impressed with what iOS developers have been able to do on the iPad. When it comes to the software side of the tablet equation, Apple has it, Microsoft doesn't.

Hardware is easy. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple had designed an "iPad Pro" separate from the classic iPad/Air that addressed the hardware limitations of the current iPad.

If I had Modern UI optimized versions of the 12 apps I use on iOS, I could easily replace my iPad 4 with my Surface 2 (that's the non-Pro ARM version)... the hardware is amazing, the software, no so much.

If Apple produced an iPad that had similar hardware capabilities as the Surface 2, I could ditch my Surface 2 for that mythical iPad.

IMO, Apple should take notice if Microsoft makes progress in getting developers to create Modern UI apps.
 
I agree. The Surface line of devices are excellent (IMO) alternatives to netbooks and ultrabooks. But the 16:9 AR and lack of quality Modern UI apps makes the Surface a fairly subpar tablet.

The Surface Pro 3 going 3:2 certainly addresses one of those points. But the software side of things is going to take a long time (if ever) to reach critical mass.

Software is the hard part. Frankly, I'm quite impressed with what iOS developers have been able to do on the iPad. When it comes to the software side of the tablet equation, Apple has it, Microsoft doesn't.

Hardware is easy. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple had designed an "iPad Pro" separate from the classic iPad/Air that addressed the hardware limitations of the current iPad.

If I had Modern UI optimized versions of the 12 apps I use on iOS, I could easily replace my iPad 4 with my Surface 2 (that's the non-Pro ARM version)... the hardware is amazing, the software, no so much.

If Apple produced an iPad that had similar hardware capabilities as the Surface 2, I could ditch my Surface 2 for that mythical iPad.

IMO, Apple should take notice if Microsoft makes progress in getting developers to create Modern UI apps.

The Surface Pro also has good alternatives which offer a better bang for the buck like the Lenovo Yoga Pro series.
 
" It’s not easy at all to implement such a feature without losing the wonderful can’t get lost/can’t get confused about where you are or how you got there simplicity of the iPad today."

I fail to see why it is not easy to implement. For example: The touch gestures for multi-windows on the Surface 2 are intuitive and simple

this is so obvious but the fact it is lost on MR crowd shows how parochial apple enthusiasts are. Windows 8 has faults, but in many ways it is quite good. Modern/metro multitasking in win 8.1 is very intuitive and useful.

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The Surface Pro also has good alternatives which offer a better bang for the buck like the Lenovo Yoga Pro series.

13.5" and 3lbs. it not really the same niche

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So if all my data sync between my phone and my desktop, what really is the difference between having a "single" phone-size computer plus a desktop docking setup, and having an iPhone plus an iMac? I think the difference is less than you would think.

I like the multi device approach. The MS dock is well built--but the whole docking undocking thing seems tiresome

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That being said I'm looking forward to see what Apple is going offer their future customers in terms of a next generation portable.


A champagne color option? a finger print reader? who says apple can't innovate? I do,
 
The Surface is a niche item. I give credit to Microsoft for trying to provide something unique to the market, but since Steve Jobs returned to Apple, he showed the company that it's better to focus on a smaller amount of products and have them be hit products that sell well. The iPad is still the best selling tablet, macbook sales are up, and Microsoft hasn't proven that the laptop/tablet hybrid product is viable.

Apple understands that software is vital, and the Surface's software library (programs developed specifically for the Surface) is still lackluster, and it's this concern that resulted in the failure of the Zune HD, which was similar to the Surface, in that it had better, more powerful hardware than Apples competing product (ipod touch), but failed due to lack of software.

Powerful, stylish hardware will draw in the techies, geeks, and enterprise users, but to be great sellers, it has to appeal to everyone, and that requires a rich library of good software.
 
They don't need one yet. The surface still has not proven that users want it. They want tablets and laptops, yes, but not a hybrid yet.
There is a lot of positive chatter on the internet about this, whether its from people first looks, reviews or regular nerdy folks commenting about it. Time will tell if the positive discussions translate into positive sales for MS.

The Surface Pro also has good alternatives which offer a better bang for the buck like the Lenovo Yoga Pro series.

The difference between the Yoga and the SP3 is that the SP3 a lighter more tablet like product. The Yoga is a bit more beefier, but its also a bit more like a traditional laptop as well.

The Surface is a niche item. I give credit to Microsoft for trying to provide something unique to the market, but since Steve Jobs returned to Apple, he showed the company that it's better to focus on a smaller amount of products and have them be hit products that sell well. The iPad is still the best selling tablet, macbook sales are up, and Microsoft hasn't proven that the laptop/tablet hybrid product is viable.

The same thing has been has been said about the iPad when it first came out but look what happened. I'm not saying the SP3 is going to be an overnight success but rather its possible to see the industry changing. Time will tell but MS realizes apps are where its at as well, which is why we have a Surface Pro so it can run all the apps a person has (for windows). They also made making ARM based apps much easier with a universal setting so they (developers) can compile and produce apps for WP, RT and of course windows.. They're hoping to make it much easier for developers to produce RT and WP apps to grow those ecosystems.
 
The same thing has been has been said about the iPad when it first came out but look what happened. I'm not saying the SP3 is going to be an overnight success but rather its possible to see the industry changing. Time will tell but MS realizes apps are where its at as well, which is why we have a Surface Pro so it can run all the apps a person has (for windows).

Talking about apps, where is Office for Win8? Not the desktop version, but one optimized to work in tablet mode. IMO, that was one of the major missteps by Microsoft -- they should have had a tablet version of Office from day one. If they had, WinRT might have gotten enough of a footprint to entice developers to develop for Windows tablets, which could have jump started the Windows tablet ecosystem. Didn't Apple have iWorks for iPad on the day they introduced the first iPad? Sure, it was very feature-light, but they had it. Slapping the desktop version of Office onto Surface made it so very unattractive -- it was like, if I'm going to be using desktop Office, why not use a regular desktop/laptop? Now I look at Office for iPad, I think if they had that on Surface, I might seriously consider getting one. But noooooo.....
 
There is a lot of positive chatter on the internet about this, whether its from people first looks, reviews or regular nerdy folks commenting about it. Time will tell if the positive discussions translate into positive sales for MS.
A lot of that has to do with a lack of extended hands-on in day-to-day usage. "In theory" the SP3 sounds like an amazing device. In reality, the tablet-mode usage is subpar to what is available on iOS and a lesser extent, Android.


The same thing has been has been said about the iPad when it first came out but look what happened. I'm not saying the SP3 is going to be an overnight success but rather its possible to see the industry changing. Time will tell but MS realizes apps are where its at as well, which is why we have a Surface Pro so it can run all the apps a person has (for windows). They also made making ARM based apps much easier with a universal setting so they (developers) can compile and produce apps for WP, RT and of course windows.. They're hoping to make it much easier for developers to produce RT and WP apps to grow those ecosystems.
The thing is, the Surface didn't "first come out" with the Surface Pro 3. It came out with the Surface RT and Surface Pro. The Surface Pro 3 is the 3rd generation of the line. Some are now claiming that the SP3 is soooo different that the previous generations that it should be considered a completely new and separate device. That's quite some spin there. "Let's just forget that the 1st and 2nd gen ever existed"?


Talking about apps, where is Office for Win8? Not the desktop version, but one optimized to work in tablet mode. IMO, that was one of the major missteps by Microsoft -- they should have had a tablet version of Office from day one. If they had, WinRT might have gotten enough of a footprint to entice developers to develop for Windows tablets, which could have jump started the Windows tablet ecosystem. Didn't Apple have iWorks for iPad on the day they introduced the first iPad? Sure, it was very feature-light, but they had it. Slapping the desktop version of Office onto Surface made it so very unattractive -- it was like, if I'm going to be using desktop Office, why not use a regular desktop/laptop? Now I look at Office for iPad, I think if they had that on Surface, I might seriously consider getting one. But noooooo.....
This is the hidden side of the issue. People are currently wowed by the hardware (and rightfully so), and they're drawn by the "idea" of a dual purpose device. But the tablet side of things are so lacking. Some will reply that "the Surface as a tablet does everything I need"... and if they are sincere about that statement (and not simply trying to defend Microsoft) then they could be just as easily satisfied with the functionality of a cheap Android tablet.

I'm a fan of the Surface RT/2. But I'm in the minority (within the Surface ownership community) in acknowledging the continued lacking state of Modern UI apps. The majority are too busy backslapping and high-fiving and thumping their chest proclaiming things like, "Take that Apple! What now, yo!" LOL
 
A champagne color option? a finger print reader? who says apple can't innovate? I do,

I'm not really sure why you're on this forum at all. A few posts ago you were pimping Windows 8 and now you reply to me with silly comments on how you feel Apple has no innovative aspects about themselves.

Keep in mind, the industry wouldn't be where it is without Apple's innovations. If you believe otherwise you're purposely acting blind to the truth.
If it weren't for Apple the Tablet industry, the Smartphone industry and even the ultraportable computers wouldn't be where they are. Heck, people laughed at the AppleTV and look at all the clones coming out in droves.

As far as the Fingerprint reader, who else does it better or at least as good as Apple's implementation? NOBODY.

They innovate plenty, you seem to hope they don't. :rolleyes:

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The same thing has been has been said about the iPad when it first came out but look what happened.

I would sure like you to point to me where this was said? The first day of Apple's introduction of the iPad, this very forum was placing orders for them. I haven't read one major publication anywhere that stated or suggested that the iPad was a niche product. The only thing I've ever read is from bloggers saying they weren't sure if Jobs would be able to take down the Netbook industry anytime soon. He did just that in a very short time but the iPad (from my own reading) was never stated as being a niche product. You can't compare this to the Surface. Also the iPad 2 was a huge seller and people were standing in lines all over the country for it.

This is now the 3rd generation of the Surface. Only time will tell but it looks like it's already going to only entice a niche consumer.
 
It's been nearly three years now since we saw Microsoft tease what they thought Surface could be. Now with the Surface Pro 3 they've been able to refine their product down to what is a pretty sweet rig.

My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal?
Imagine a "tablet" not much thicker or heavier than the iPad Air running a fully fledged version of OS X, with 8GB RAM and a powerful processor.

Honestly I can't see why this wouldn't be an area Apple would miss.
Thoughts?

Surface pro 3 is 70% heavier than the iPad Air.

There is no comparison with iPad Air. That's for the surface RT or whatever it's called now and we all know the surface RT is a complete mess right now.

Microsoft is really targeting the the MacBook Air. Remember it took Apple about 3 versions to get the Air right.

But right now even though the hardware is correct. Windows 8.1 is still in crux. Sometimes u want it in mobile mode. Sometimes desktop mode.

Most important is pricing. With the keyboard $129 add on. Microsoft is playing a dangerous game. The Air is getting cheaper. But a comparable 128gb ssd for the surface pro 3 makes it more expensive.
 
Windows 8.1 is still in crux. Sometimes u want it in mobile mode. Sometimes desktop mode.

thats the point. its a hybrid device, with hybrid os. i cant defend metro/modern implementation--but the concept doesnt bother me. if it was desktop fused to ios--then the concept would seem a lot more viable.
 
facepalm

There is a lot of denial in this thread. I get it, I do really as I don't want to admit Microsoft is doing a good job but they are.

The idea that this isn't a good product because people aren't flooding away from iPad to it is a daft argument as there is many reasons people choose Apple other than the abilities of the product. The eco system, the operating system, the customer service, the prestige and image owning a device can give.

aside from the growing business sector using Surface tablets the fact we are relying more or digital devices and mobile storage should encourage Apple to look at more robust tablets with more of a fledged OS hybrid solution.

The only problem I really have with Surface as a device is Windows which is not a good system to be in especially 8.x
 
Surface pro 3 is 70% heavier than the iPad Air.

There is no comparison with iPad Air. That's for the surface RT or whatever it's called now and we all know the surface RT is a complete mess right now.

Microsoft is really targeting the the MacBook Air. Remember it took Apple about 3 versions to get the Air right.

But right now even though the hardware is correct. Windows 8.1 is still in crux. Sometimes u want it in mobile mode. Sometimes desktop mode.

Most important is pricing. With the keyboard $129 add on. Microsoft is playing a dangerous game. The Air is getting cheaper. But a comparable 128gb ssd for the surface pro 3 makes it more expensive.

I think this is where Microsoft has made the mistake that will stop the SP3 from actually beating this generation is the price and targeting. it is priced to and targeted to compete against the Macbook Air, however that is as pointed out a much better proposition for the money despite size and weight. Instead it should be targeted against the iPad where though the weight and cost are higher it can in essence do a lot more and should be marketed as such and it would find growing popularity.
 
No need to respond to the THIRD iteration of a product in 18 months of being on the market and who's total sales are less than one quarters worth of iPad sales.

The surface is the best product for experiencing windows 8 though, should that be your thing.
 
My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal?

Apple has two rebuttals: One is called the iPad, the other is called the MacBook Air. There are very few people indeed who wouldn't prefer either the iPad or the MacBook to the Surface.

It's like BMW selling cars and motorbikes, and you try to compete by building either a four wheeler bike or a car with two wheels. BMW wouldn't need a rebuttal.
 
It's been nearly three years now since we saw Microsoft tease what they thought Surface could be. Now with the Surface Pro 3 they've been able to refine their product down to what is a pretty sweet rig.

My question is, where is Apple's rebuttal?
Imagine a "tablet" not much thicker or heavier than the iPad Air running a fully fledged version of OS X, with 8GB RAM and a powerful processor.

Honestly I can't see why this wouldn't be an area Apple would miss.
Thoughts?

I think the rumored iPad Pro will be a full OS X machine. I can only hope!
 
What rebuttal? Apple makes the most money of all tablet sellers. Surface is probably still a net negative. Just because a few people might buy a product doesn't mean Apple or anybody else will invest the time and money to make it. I'm sure there is a market for thicker iPhones with much larger batteries and more flash storage.
 
I've been skimming a lot of comments here. I believe a lot of people don't get what really Microsoft is after.

If you compare Surface Pro 3 to an iPad. I can just tell you if its for consuming, both works the same. But if you want to be productive -- Surface Pro 3 would be a clear choice over the iPad. If you're a web developer and wanted to code and slice say in Photoshop. Can you do that in iPad, obviously no. You'll use a **different** device for that.

Which brings me to my second point; What Microsoft really is after is the ultra portable market more so than the tablet. Right now Macbook Air reigns supreme there and its popular because of it being thin and light; which both Microsoft absolutely answered, having half the weight, and thinner than the macbook air.

If you really want something powerful, eg. i7 and you're in the market for ultra portables, then surface pro 3 is the clear choice.

I'm using an rMBP right now, and was waiting for a retina display Macbook Air. Sadly, my eyes are used to the sharpness of a retina display has. Getting a non Hi DPI display won't do. I wanted to switch to a lighter laptop with better battery life (preferably 8hours++).

Right now the only one that answer that is Surface Pro 3. I'm still waiting for Apple's June 2 event, see if they'll have a lighter macbook pro, but I doubt it.

So again, if you think Surface Pro 3 as a tablet, its slightly bigger and more heavier but you can be more productive. If you see Surface Pro 3 as laptop. Its one of the lightest, or probably the lightest core i7 laptop there is with superb battery life.

I truly believe Surface Pro 3 is very polished. And that Windows 8 having 100K apps is more mature now, as compared to 3 years ago. I hope Microsoft succeed, because frankly I see the table has turned. Microsoft is the underdog now, and Apple is outselling desktops / laptops / tablets to any PC manufacture there is, till recently, where Lenovo bounced back.

Also it doesn't mean that if Microsoft succeeds Apple will loose. I hope we remove that mentality. At the end of the day, if Microsoft gives a better product than apple - to all fanboys there. That would mean Apple would work extra hard to dish a better product. So its a win for us consumers! Competition is always good for consumers.
 
...What Microsoft really is after is the ultra portable market more so than the tablet. Right now Macbook Air reigns supreme there and its popular because of it being thin and light; which both Microsoft absolutely answered, having half the weight, and thinner than the macbook air.

to be fair-- the MS endgame for both surface and windows8 seems to be somewhat in flux. I agree this release is clearly a rebrand of sp as "ultrabook hybrid"--less a "super tablet". Semantcs? Yeah. What I think surface does is give them an "aspirational" product that puts a different spin on the company's image. And they managed not to clutter the surface pro image with a concurrent surface rt release. While many reviewers seemed to feel it wasnt laptop-py enough--everyone seemed to agree it was pretty sweeet
 
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