Why buy MAC?

[Tesselator]

How about the MacBook Pros, which of those would you say is over-priced (or most over-priced) and which are good deals (good values).

I dunno. I haven't looked at laptops since I retired my professorship over 3 years ago. I have 4 or 5 of them around the house (all windows & Linux dual-boot). I think the weakest one is 3.0GHz HT with 4GB RAM, 7DVD writer, 15" LCD, 7-in-one Card reader, Express expansion slot, X800 ATI internal with support for external monitor, 100Mb ethernet, wireless, 4 USB 2.0, 500GB drive, 4 Hr. battery life, price: $1,200. The beefiest one was about $3K or $4K (I forget) and specs out a bit like a server. LOL

I almost never use them tho - except to perform maintenance when the GF or one of my sons are having troubles. For me a laptop is only useful for business meetings and when teaching in a lab environment and hopping around the campus. I'm not doing that any longer so laptops aren't interesting to me. Maybe for the once or twice a year I assemble the telescope up in the mountains or something - <shrug>

What do you think about Apple laptops?


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[Loa]

It wouldn't be slander! It's all documented and very real. Slander implies the charges are untrue. This would be more akin to whistle-blowing!

Well slander can mean either false or malicious. In this case it would be malicious, if not false. And in any case, what the heck should I care about what Gates does with his time??? We're comparing systems, not persons...

If your friends need an "argument" to decide what to buy, maybe they don't need a Mac.

You lost me there. People using Macs don't think using arguments? How else do you choose? Wishful thinking?

Arguments, in the case of choosing what to buy, are the answers to the question: "Why would you buy this instead of that."

Unless you want to be deceived by ads and hype, arguments are the only thing that you have...

Loa

 

[nanofrog]

I still say the new Sun Ultra 27 is the only Mac Pro combatant worth considering - and believe me, I am considering it.

http://www.sun.com/desktop/workstation/ultra27/

Looks like a nice machine. 6 DIMM slots, better graphics cards (though it's not officially qualified to run OS X), and cheaper.

Not bad at all, if you aren't tied to OS X due to previous software investments.

 

[Luba]

I don't know either, but my impression is that the iMac may be more prone to break down than the notebooks! Completely unscientific . . . reading the iMac forum versus notebook forum I'd say there are more complaints with the iMac. Then again I think the notebook is more of a consumer item, meaning less Mac enthusiasts and more average people buy notebooks, and complain less. But notebooks are moved around while iMac stay still and they still seem to have more or less the same number of problems. So from that score perhaps MBs have the edge in quality.

The IT help guys I know tell me they see many more iMac break down than notebooks though.

I dunno. I haven't looked at laptops since I retired my professorship over 3 years ago. I have 4 or 5 of them around the house (all windows & Linux dual-boot). I think the weakest one is 3.0GHz HT with 4GB RAM, 7DVD writer, 15" LCD, 7-in-one Card reader, Express expansion slot, X800 ATI internal with support for external monitor, 100Mb ethernet, wireless, 4 USB 2.0, 500GB drive, 4 Hr. battery life, price: $1,200. The beefiest one was about $3K or $4K (I forget) and specs out a bit like a server. LOL

I almost never use them tho - except to perform maintenance when the GF or one of my sons are having troubles. For me a laptop is only useful for business meetings and when teaching in a lab environment and hopping around the campus. I'm not doing that any longer so laptops aren't interesting to me. Maybe for the once or twice a year I assemble the telescope up in the mountains or something - <shrug>

What do you think about Apple laptops?


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[Tesselator]

Well slander can mean either false or malicious. In this case it would be malicious, if not false. And in any case, what the heck should I care about what Gates does with his time??? We're comparing systems, not persons...

No. It's a legal term and the statement NEEDS to be false in order for a conviction. The definition is very clear.

Slander |ˈslandər|
noun Law
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation : he is suing the TV network for slander. Compare with libel .
• a false and malicious spoken statement : I've had just about all I can stomach of your slanders.
verb [ trans. ]
make false and damaging statements about (someone) : they were accused of slandering the head of state. See note at malign.​

And, we are not comparing systems only here. Read back through it. We are comparing platforms and companies as well.

 

[Loa]

No. It's a legal term and the statement NEEDS to be false in order for a conviction. The definition is very clear.

Ok, thought the AND was a OR. Wrong logic gate...

And, we are not comparing systems only here. Read back through it. We are comparing platforms and companies as well.

Even worse!

Would a BMW suddenly drive worse because the owner of the company turned out to be a criminal? Nope. I couldn't care any less what Gates does with his life. And it doesn't have any impact on the performance of Windows + PCs.

Ad Hominem ftl!

Loa

 

[bozz2006]

I object!

 

[Tesselator]

You're out of order! Bailiff, whack his pee-pee!

 

[nanofrog]

You're out of order! Bailiff, whack his pee-pee!

It's getting strange around here... too much Nihonshu?

 

[VirtualRain]

It's strange now how there are no more clean cut answers to this question...

Sad, too.

Loa

I agree, but the same is true in nearly every product or industry where product choice has diversified to fit nearly every conceivable basket of needs, emotional buyer responses, and decision making criteria.

Pick your favorite car brand, TV brand, home appliance brand, lawn mower, it's equally difficult to tell someone to buy brand XYZ vs ABC no matter what it is now.

Only individuals can fully understand what product fits them best. Even if someone is very specific about their needs and what makes them "feel good" about a decision (and most can't articulate either - especially in the computer world where they just buy on GHz and GB) it's still difficult to recommend a given product.

Hello,

This is not a flame post, but wanted to share that I just purchased an HP with 9gig DDR3, i7 920 2.66, 1TB 7200 drive, Blu-Ray, ATI 4850 1gig, Bluetooth, TV tuner for about 1420.00+ tax.

That said, I still miss not owning a mac.

Why can't Apple offer prices like this?

Anyway, I am trying it out and need to decide if I should return it and get a mac pro or mbp.

Thanks

Frank

OP... This is like asking... "Why can't Ferrari offer prices like Nissan?" They both have four wheels, engines, transmissions, and wind-shield washer fluid (at least I think a Ferrari has this )... anyway, the short answer is that all companies focus their products on a specific target market that has a unique basket of needs, buying criteria, and emotional drivers to their purchase. I guess you just aren't in the Apple target market.

Are specs and price all that matters to you? On the surface, perhaps, but I really doubt those are the only things. It may be that computers are more of a practical expense for you, but I suspect that there is something in your life, food, cars, home, clothes, vacations, or some other area of your life, where you pay more than the absolute minimum for quality, the experience, status, emotional satisfaction, or some other intangible benefit. Some people buy Apple for the same reason you spend more on any one or more of these other things in your life.

 

[22Hertz]

Im almost at 2 years owning a Mac (for the first time)

Here are some reasons why I prefer Macs

-Stable - I feel confident my Mac will run smooth without any conflicts or demanding my attention to press some freakin button which takes me to

-Im Driving - Using a Mac Im in control, with Windows the user is bombarded by unintuitive "glitter". The glitter is all the things fighting for your attention like Las Vegas. A Mac is lean, intuitive and powerful
*Also to install software you drag the icon to the Applications folder...to unistall, drag to trash/delete...gone
*Spaces, Expose, Widgets (whole translucent screen that appears/disappears with one key stroke) these are Mac things I could NEVER EVER live without again!!

-Less=More - With less hardware power I have more speed...how can that be? Its because the OS is efficient, running with ONLY the drivers I need and optimized to work with them. The OS is written with this wide view goal in mind...as a system. My Mac feels smooooth
No AV no spyware checker, no slow downs

-OS add-ons - OSX comes with Imovie, Ical, Dictionary, Itunes, Disk Utility, Address Book, Iphoto, Photo Capture, Front Row, Mail, Quicktime, Preview and these are just the ones I use and from memory...
Windows comes with "Join AOL" or "Norton" or "Warning your computer may be at risk" BOING "Sign up now for a free trial

If I want the preferences of almost any software I know I can press the COMMAND + , and be right at it, or COMMAND + Q to quit/close the application or several other across-the-board shortcut key commands.

I feel safe checking my online bank account (this may be psychological) shopping online or having privileged information on this computer. I may not be better protected, but I fell I am and thats important to me.

Last but not least I love my Mac. It feels like an extension of me when I use it. Its intuitive, well thought out and easy to use. I definitely have a connection with it.
Windows raises my blood pressure. I tried to like W7 but it feels like more of the same old thing in a different package. Sure it may have had this and that redone, but its still a pain to configure and use and nothing about it feels smooth.

 

[VirtualRain]

Im almost at 2 years owning a Mac (for the first time)

Here are some reasons why I prefer Macs

<lots of good stuff snipped>

Well said!

Windows computers seam so crude to work on compared to my Macs

 

[steviem]

Is that a desktop or laptop? You were talking about getting a 24" screen with a Mac Pro to save on money, what screen did you get with the HP?

If I had the money to buy a Mac Pro, I would buy it on its own with the base amount of RAM and hard drive space. Then I'd probably get a Dell monitor for it and buy my RAM from kingston and hard drives from aria. I did the same when I got a PC to use as a server, it has a pretty good spec, I didn't pay a Microsoft tax either and I'm happy with it.

Saying that, most of my computer interaction is done on my MacBook, I do prefer the UI and the vast majority of the apps on a mac.

 

[specialbuddy]

OP... This is like asking... "Why can't Ferrari offer prices like Nissan?" They

No it's more like "Putting a Ferrari body kit on a Nissan might cost more and look totally bitchin' but will it be better then the stock Nissan?" The hardware is not any better then most PC manufacturers out there although my next laptop will most likely be a Mac because they are pretty damn sexy.

 

[frocco]

I purchased the w2338h 24" from HP.
I have to admit, the Mac seems like a more complete package with all the included software. I guess I have to decide on the pros/cons of giving up Blu-Ray as that is the only think I see that can't be added to the Mac for playing movies. (this may change with SL, but who knows)

Then I would have to decide on MBP (love the led screen) or MP and cheap monitor

Thanks

 

[kirreip]

The hardware is not any better then most PC manufacturers out there (...).

That is just not true! "Most PC manufacturers out there" just do not sell equivalent hardware! I do not say that they all sell crap. Really, there are some manufacturers that do sell equivalent (pro) hardware but by far not "most PC manufacturers out there". Now, that is not a crime. They offer hardware for people that don't need (or bother to have) any better. But you wouldn't compare what dell makes to what IBM produced. So please don't compare Fujitsu Siemens with Apple. And with that you totally neglect the OS and what comes with it. I have used Vista for several years now and this is just a painful joke! Oh, and I am really not an Apple fanboy, believe me. More a computer and techie fan. I often use both OS (now I have Windows 7 RC, which does run better I agree and enjoy that).
We should not forget one thing: People in this forum (specially the ones in this category) are all experienced computer users. It is kind of usual that we know how to make an OS run the way we want it to run. But as many here, I am the one in my family and circle of friends that has to support them with their computers. And many problems that I see are Windows related. As a matter of fact, I haven't met one, that was pleased with Vista. And when I ask them why they still use it, the answer is allways the same: "Because there is no alternative..." But I know many that really enjoy OS X. Not just in this forum, which of course is biased in some way (some more, some less).

 

[zmttoxics]

That is just not true! "Most PC manufacturers out there" just do not sell equivalent hardware! I do not say that they all sell crap. Really, there are some manufacturers that do sell equivalent (pro) hardware but by far not "most PC manufacturers out there". Now, that is not a crime. They offer hardware for people that don't need (or bother to have) any better. But you wouldn't compare what dell makes to what IBM produced. So please don't compare Fujitsu Siemens with Apple. And with that you totally neglect the OS and what comes with it. I have used Vista for several years now and this is just a painful joke! Oh, and I am really not an Apple fanboy, believe me. More a computer and techie fan. I often use both OS (now I have Windows 7 RC, which does run better I agree and enjoy that).
We should not forget one thing: People in this forum (specially the ones in this category) are all experienced computer users. It is kind of usual that we know how to make an OS run the way we want it to run. But as many here, I am the one in my family and circle of friends that has to support them with their computers. And many problems that I see are Windows related. As a matter of fact, I haven't met one, that was pleased with Vista. And when I ask them why they still use it, the answer is allways the same: "Because there is no alternative..." But I know many that really enjoy OS X. Not just in this forum, which of course is biased in some way (some more, some less).

What? Lawl. They all make workstation equipment. Even Fujitsu, they are now the leading developer of SPARC class CPUs since Sun dropped development on there latest big thing (the ROCK cpu). Sun, IBM, HP, Dell, and Fujitsu all have high end workstation and server (even mainframe) parts. Apple doesn't even begin to compete in the "high quality" market with their puny xservs and mac pros.

You are failing to look past the 300$ crap boxes and examine the big companies for what they really are and sell.

 

[contoursvt]

Are you serious? Are you judging everything on the cheapest PCs you see? Even then, the low cost doesnt have to mean less reliable by the way. They just strip away options but reliability these days is good for all hardware.

I build my own machines just because I enjoy it and I can tell you that the board quality is no different than what apple would use. The only thing thats different is that most of the apple systems are actually missing some features or are somewhat stripped down including the Mac Pro, but for reliability itself, you're kind of kidding yourself if you think its really any different. I support both Mac and PC at my work and I see all kinds of issues on both sides. One is not more reliable than the other IMO.

What I can say is that our imacs have had more trouble and I believe its due to heat. I've had so many drive failures. Ever pull out a drive out of an imac right after it was shut down? Its about the same temperature as the sun.

Mac Pro's have their hard drives side by side and IMO thats not exactly the best way to cool them. Drives stacked vertically with some space below and above each one is the best.

Anyway thats pretty much the best way to keep something longer. Let the components run cool and give the devices clean power. The apple machines have good power supplies so that part is taken care of.

Lastly I use Vista64 on my main box at home and at work and on my spare machine and I can say its very fast. I'd be willing to put my Q6600 Vista machine up against any older 4 core Mac Pro such as the 2.66 with similar RAM. Any benchmark, any test including anything disk intensive or multitasking.

That is just not true! "Most PC manufacturers out there" just do not sell equivalent hardware! I do not say that they all sell crap. Really, there are some manufacturers that do sell equivalent (pro) hardware but by far not "most PC manufacturers out there". Now, that is not a crime. They offer hardware for people that don't need (or bother to have) any better. But you wouldn't compare what dell makes to what IBM produced. So please don't compare Fujitsu Siemens with Apple. And with that you totally neglect the OS and what comes with it. I have used Vista for several years now and this is just a painful joke! Oh, and I am really not an Apple fanboy, believe me. More a computer and techie fan. I often use both OS (now I have Windows 7 RC, which does run better I agree and enjoy that).
We should not forget one thing: People in this forum (specially the ones in this category) are all experienced computer users. It is kind of usual that we know how to make an OS run the way we want it to run. But as many here, I am the one in my family and circle of friends that has to support them with their computers. And many problems that I see are Windows related. As a matter of fact, I haven't met one, that was pleased with Vista. And when I ask them why they still use it, the answer is allways the same: "Because there is no alternative..." But I know many that really enjoy OS X. Not just in this forum, which of course is biased in some way (some more, some less).

 

[VirtualRain]

While you can equip a PC from Dell, HP, Apple, or build one yourself from with equivalent parts, there are tangible differences in design, materials, software, the sales experience, after sales support, and also intangibles etc.

Apple has done a good job, positioning themselves as an upscale product and delivering on an excellent overall experience. Even Balmer admitted that Apple does a fanstastic job of providing an outstanding overall experience because they control the entire system...

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer on Wednesday acknowledged the threat Microsoft faces from Apple and offered some hints as to how Microsoft plans to fight back against its steadily strengthening nemesis. However, some channel partners were confused by the message.
In an email sent to Microsoft employees Wednesday, which first appeared in AllThingsD.com, Ballmer says Apple's success stems from its ability to deliver a complete user experience within the relatively narrow scope of its offerings, and suggests Microsoft could learn from this example.

"In the competition between PCs and Macs, we outsell Apple 30-to-1. But there is no doubt that Apple is thriving. Why? Because they are good at providing an experience that is narrow but complete, while our commitment to choice often comes with some compromises to the end-to-end experience," Ballmer wrote.

http://www.crn.com/software/209600615;jsessionid=RA3XBEESYJK1KQSNDLOSKH0CJUNN2JVN

Apple delivers with tangible differences in design, materials, and software. Looking inside a Mac Pro you can see where some of your money went. It's a much different story than the internals of a typical BTO PC.

On consumer systems, only Sony's VAIO line comes close to offering similar products to Apple... but unfortunately for them, they are confined to Windows.

No it's more like "Putting a Ferrari body kit on a Nissan might cost more and look totally bitchin' but will it be better then the stock Nissan?" The hardware is not any better then most PC manufacturers out there although my next laptop will most likely be a Mac because they are pretty damn sexy.

I actually would say that buying an Apple vs. a HP/Dell is more like buying a Lexus, Infinity or Acura, vs. their mass-market brands (Toyota, Nissan, Honda). The upscale brands sell vehicles with identical drive-trains to the mass-market brands, but differentiate them based on design, materials, extra's, and the whole purchasing/ownership experience. They charge more but since many buyers place value on these differentiators, they have a significant market.

It's exactly the same model that Apple uses, or any other premium brand, whether it's a hand-bag, a car, or a computer... some buyers are looking for more than just GHz and GB.

 

[contoursvt]

This is a very good analogy.

I actually would say that buying an Apple vs. a HP/Dell is more like buying a Lexus, Infinity or Acura, vs. their mass-market brands (Toyota, Nissan, Honda). The upscale brands sell vehicles with identical drive-trains to the mass-market brands, but differentiate them based on design, materials, extra's, and the whole purchasing/ownership experience. They charge more but since many buyers place value on these differentiators, they have a significant market.

It's exactly the same model that Apple uses, or any other premium brand, whether it's a hand-bag, a car, or a computer... some buyers are looking for more than just GHz and GB.

 

[VirtualRain]

I build my own machines just because I enjoy it and I can tell you that the board quality is no different than what apple would use. The only thing thats different is that most of the apple systems are actually missing some features or are somewhat stripped down including the Mac Pro, but for reliability itself, you're kind of kidding yourself if you think its really any different. I support both Mac and PC at my work and I see all kinds of issues on both sides. One is not more reliable than the other IMO.

I disagree with you about Mac boards not being better (perhaps not better quality, but they are better). Have you looked at the internals of a Mac Pro?

At least on the 2009, it's a marvel of design inside. There is no DIY PC that can touch a Mac Pro... and I've seen and built plenty of awesome rigs (e.g. http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/)

While you can choose better components than Apple uses (processors, memory, more feature rich motherboards, etc.) you simply cannot architect the internals the way they have with backplane mounted SATA drives, routing of PCIe power through the main board, integrated wifi and bluetooth, etc. A lot of this equates to virtually no cables running internally... something that every DIY'er tries really hard to overcome... because it will dramatically improve unobstructed air-flow through the chassis which translates to better cooling and thereby lower noise levels.

I would think that any DIY'er who knows anything about serious PC building, should appreciate the internals of a Mac Pro much more than joe consumer. If you are a serious DIY'er who has taken pains to route cables under the motherboard, etc, then you know what I'm talking about.

 

[SolidGun]

Buy it...don't buy it....whatever.

My business has high turn around for personal computers from all major manufacturers. However, the department that buys and uses Macs will keep their units for 3 years as opposed to PC users which only keep them for 1-2 years due to defect or current performance matching.

As we don't buy Apple servers, I don't have that stat to compare.


Personally, I continue to buy Macs (as well as Lenovo units for work) because I have the original Apple II that still works to this day and 5 other Macs that continue to function. I just recently bought a MacPro as I got sick of building gaming units that is loud enough to hurt my hearing (and I have just gotten plain lazy and old).

 

[contoursvt]

I dont judge reliability and performance or even quality based on beauty. I base my purchases on specs, reliability, air flow (case design). While the lack of visible cables may look impressive, its just that. Looks.

As for airflow, look at the default temps in a Mac Pro. Drive temps, cpu temps..etc. They are not that low. I have an Antec P180 case and some 15K U320 SCSI drives. Even with the fans barely turning, my 15K drives run cooler than the SATA drives in a Mac Pro. My chassis being a sandwich of plastic and aluminum has less resonance issues hence no problems like many are having with mac pros (just do a search for mac pro hum or noise). Drives or fans in the Mac Pro sometimes couple with the aluminum chassis to cause noise.

Anyway so thats it. I dont care about the external aesthetics too much. For me its the bottom line and thats performance, upgradability, expandability, reliability and price.

I disagree with you. Have you looked at the internals of a Mac Pro?

At least on the 2009, it's a marvel of design inside. There is no DIY PC that can touch a Mac Pro... and I've seen and built plenty of awesome rigs (e.g. http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/)

While you can choose better components than Apple uses (processors, memory, more feature rich motherboards, etc.) you simply cannot architect the internals the way they have with backplane mounted SATA drives, routing of PCIe power through the main board, integrated wifi and bluetooth, etc. A lot of this equates to virtually no cables running internally... something that every DIY'er tries really hard to overcome... because it will dramatically improve unobstructed air-flow through the chassis which translates to better cooling and thereby lower noise levels.

I would think that any DIY'er who knows anything about serious PC building, should appreciate the internals of a Mac Pro much more than joe consumer. If you are a serious DIY'er who has taken pains to route cables under the motherboard, etc, then you know what I'm talking about.

 

[specialbuddy]

That is just not true! "Most PC manufacturers out there" just do not sell equivalent hardware! I do not say that they all sell crap.

Well I hear complaints about all these problems with PC's. I guess I'm just lucky. So are my parents since they have a 10 year old Compaq that they still use to this day with all of the original parts. It's sad that they still have it and use it because my Ipod Touch has double the drive space. The point is there isn't much difference between a "Pro" Mac and a "Workstation" PC or any other consumer model out there.

 

[Tesselator]

I disagree with you about Mac boards not being better (perhaps not better quality, but they are better). Have you looked at the internals of a Mac Pro?

Better than what is the real question in my mind.

At least on the 2009, it's a marvel of design inside. There is no DIY PC that can touch a Mac Pro... and I've seen and built plenty of awesome rigs (e.g. http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/)

You built all those machines??? Damn dude, you're a mod-gawd!

Awesome stuff!