Why do people rag on the 13"MBP?

[iThinkergoiMac]

What makes a 15 or 17" model a professional machine, if its not the ability to have 16gb RAM, larger disks, and potentially RAID (all of which, the 13" can do, that an Air can't). It can connect to high speed thunderbolt storage arrays, that your cheap Dell can't.

True, the 13" has Thunderbolt, but that's about the only thing it has in its favor.

Find me another 13" machine with discrete GPU (that the 13" pro doesn't have) and 16GB ram? What do you think the 13" Pro is missing that excludes it from being a pro level machine?

There are tons of 13" PC laptops out there with discrete GPUs. Take a look at Asus' gaming laptops for a start. I'll concede that I haven't found one that officially lists 16 GB as the max, but any of the ones sporting a Core-i series processor should be able to see 16 GB as long as they're running a 64-bit version of Windows.

As for things that the 13" Pro is missing? How about a replaceable CPU? Replaceable GPU? Expansion card slots? Higher resolution screen? More than 2 USB ports? Separate Line In/Out? An actually decent audio card (all the audio cards in Mac laptops are not that great)? The list goes on and on...

Its certainly not the lack of discrete GPU, because for most professional purposes that the mac is used for, GPU is irrelevant.

Hahahaha... really?! What about 3D modeling/rendering? You don't think that's a professional purpose that Macs are used for? You ABSOLUTELY NEED a discrete GPU for that, and most of the discrete GPUs found in Macs are underpowered for some stuff you can do with that. Scientific computations also can use a ton of GPU power, and people often use Macs for that because OS X is a certified Unix OS.

There are a ton of things Macs are used for professionally that require a decent GPU. The 13" would NEVER be considered for those things. Again, the 13" MBP is a great machine, but it's not really a professional machine. And, like I said, it's expansion capabilities are severely limited, and count more against it being a professional machine than for it.

 

[throAU]

Hahahaha... really?! What about 3D modeling/rendering? .

Last i checked, 3d modelling wasn't a common (read what I wrote) use for portable macs - and if you need that, there's the 15" option anyway. Its only a matter of time before thunderbolt GPUs are available anyhow.

The 13" pro machine is fine for various pro-level activities that do not require 3d, such as DJ-ing, music creation, virtualization, photoshop (sure, the display is a bit crap for that, but externals work), etc. There is very little benefit to a professional musician (for example) for a 15" pro over a 13" pro. Trying to use an MBA for that task however would be a joke. Hence, the 13" is a valid professional machine, within the apple lineup.

The 15" and 17" machines don't have replacable CPU or GPU either, I really think you're clutching at straws here.

You'll always find "pro" tasks that can't be done by "pro" machine X. The MBP 17 can't take 96gb of ram and only has 4 cores, not 12, so maybe it shouldn't get a pro label either (because the Mac Pro can do that)? All of your arguments barring the GPU apply equally to the MBP 15 and 17, the screen res on the higher end 15" is pretty crap (compared to say, the Dell E6500 i had at work with 1920x1200 3 years ago), too.

Fact is, the MBP 13 is a lot more capable than a 13" air, which is why it is branded as a "Pro" machine, and the MBA isn't.

 

[fisherking]

True, the 13" has Thunderbolt, but that's about the only thing it has in its favor.

There are tons of 13" PC laptops out there with discrete GPUs. Take a look at Asus' gaming laptops for a start. I'll concede that I haven't found one that officially lists 16 GB as the max, but any of the ones sporting a Core-i series processor should be able to see 16 GB as long as they're running a 64-bit version of Windows.

As for things that the 13" Pro is missing? How about a replaceable CPU? Replaceable GPU? Expansion card slots? Higher resolution screen? More than 2 USB ports? Separate Line In/Out? An actually decent audio card (all the audio cards in Mac laptops are not that great)? The list goes on and on...

Hahahaha... really?! What about 3D modeling/rendering? You don't think that's a professional purpose that Macs are used for? You ABSOLUTELY NEED a discrete GPU for that, and most of the discrete GPUs found in Macs are underpowered for some stuff you can do with that. Scientific computations also can use a ton of GPU power, and people often use Macs for that because OS X is a certified Unix OS.

There are a ton of things Macs are used for professionally that require a decent GPU. The 13" would NEVER be considered for those things. Again, the 13" MBP is a great machine, but it's not really a professional machine. And, like I said, it's expansion capabilities are severely limited, and count more against it being a professional machine than for it.

"pro" is a relative term. doesn't it depend on WHAT you do professionally?
i do pro audio on my 13" (with 8gigs ram and an SSD) and couldn't be happier.
i know people who write, design websites, and have a friend who's a pro photographer, and travels with a 13" mbp.

if you're doing pro work and feel that the 13" won't support it, you can ALWAYS get another mac (or a pc, whatever). stop whining and find a computer that lives up to your needs...

 

[Nychot]

Pro is a madison avenue term -- like gm uses "professional grade" for some suvs and appliance companies use profesional grade for appliances. And apple uses pro. Its just sales jargon. I am sn actual professional in my field and the two computers i use mainly are a mac mini and a 13 inch mbp. If some of the commenters here bought a 15 or 17 thinking that put them in a special pro category they are total suckers for marketing hype.

 

[l.a.rossmann]

i hear u, really. i do pro audio, and don't mind carrying a small audio interface when i need to (which isn't often).

but i don't understand about the edges. how do you use your macbook that causes a problem? i rest my hands next to the trackpad (when not typing), never parallel to the edges...

I rarely use a Macbook, I own a Thinkpad. I rest my palms on the palmrest. My forearm often arches over the edge. If I sit at a desk, the desk is usually higher than I am, so my arms go over the edge of the machine, and it feels like my arms are being chopped off by those sharp edges!

It just seems stupid that if I wanted I can get a PCMCIA interface for a $300 laptop from years ago to get better quality out of the laptop but if I buy a $1700 Macbook Pro, I'm out of luck. Laptops that expensive should come with some expand ability.

 

[iThinkergoiMac]

Last i checked, 3d modelling wasn't a common (read what I wrote) use for portable macs - and if you need that, there's the 15" option anyway. Its only a matter of time before thunderbolt GPUs are available anyhow.

I did read what you wrote: "most professional purposes that the mac is used for". 3D modeling is most certainly a common professional purpose that the Mac is used for. Once I made that point, you retroactively stated it to mean "portable Macs", but that's not what you said. You said "the Mac" which is Macs in general. I answered what you said. If you meant something different, be more clear in the future.

Your revision is kind of self-answering. Professional uses I would use a 13" MBP for exclude everything the 13" MBP isn't good at, thus it self-defines as a perfectly fine professional machine.

The 13" pro machine is fine for various pro-level activities that do not require 3d, such as DJ-ing, music creation, virtualization, photoshop (sure, the display is a bit crap for that, but externals work), etc. There is very little benefit to a professional musician (for example) for a 15" pro over a 13" pro. Trying to use an MBA for that task however would be a joke. Hence, the 13" is a valid professional machine, within the apple lineup.

It would work fine for DJ-ing. Music creation, virtualization, and photoshop are all OK for light to medium use. I would never consider, for example, trying to work on a 4 GB Photoshop file on a 13" MBP if I had a better option at hand. Virtualization is OK as long as you're not doing something intensive in it, but would benefit greatly from a quad-core processor.

The 15" and 17" machines don't have replacable CPU or GPU either, I really think you're clutching at straws here.

You're absolutely right that they don't have replaceable CPUs and GPUs, and that's one reason why a lot of professionals pass them up. It's one reason why many people don't consider ANY of the MBPs to be true professional machines. I'm not really clutching at straws, for some lines of work it's a requirement.

You'll always find "pro" tasks that can't be done by "pro" machine X. The MBP 17 can't take 96gb of ram and only has 4 cores, not 12, so maybe it shouldn't get a pro label either (because the Mac Pro can do that)? All of your arguments barring the GPU apply equally to the MBP 15 and 17, the screen res on the higher end 15" is pretty crap (compared to say, the Dell E6500 i had at work with 1920x1200 3 years ago), too.

The hi-res option of the 15" takes care of the screen res being crap on the 15". You're right that the term "pro" is relative, but it does have a bottom cutoff. IMO, the 13" MBP doesn't meet that bottom end cutoff. TBH, it would if it had a discrete GPU (though I don't know how they would fit it).

Fact is, the MBP 13 is a lot more capable than a 13" air, which is why it is branded as a "Pro" machine, and the MBA isn't.

If you want to talk about facts, the performance difference between the current 13" MBP and 13" MBA is less than 20%. That's not really "a lot" in my book. It's got quite a bit more in terms of expansion, though.

As to why it's branded as a Pro machine? It sells better! That's really the primary reason. My MBP is nearly identical to the aluminum MacBook before it. What makes mine a Pro and that aluminum MacBook not? Other than Firewire (which the MacBooks all had until the aluminum MacBook), there's very little difference. It's completely a branding thing.

"pro" is a relative term. doesn't it depend on WHAT you do professionally?

Yes. But if you get paid to write stuff in Word all day, then technically ANY laptop would be a professional machine.

if you're doing pro work and feel that the 13" won't support it, you can ALWAYS get another mac (or a pc, whatever). stop whining and find a computer that lives up to your needs...

How many times do I need to say that I have a 13" MBP and I love it

It works for what I need it for, but that doesn't mean I consider it to be a professional level machine. One of the reasons it works so well for what I do is because I have an external monitor. Without that, I would be hard-pressed to do everything as well.

 

[ABernardoJr]

i hear u, really. i do pro audio, and don't mind carrying a small audio interface when i need to (which isn't often).

but i don't understand about the edges. how do you use your macbook that causes a problem? i rest my hands next to the trackpad (when not typing), never parallel to the edges...

Sometimes the edges feel a little sharp, not really a big deal but if I'm leaning back and have my forearm/wrist area resting on the edge it can feel sharp. But again it's not really a big deal lol

 

[LiesForTheLiars]

Sometimes the edges feel a little sharp, not really a big deal but if I'm leaning back and have my forearm/wrist area resting on the edge it can feel sharp. But again it's not really a big deal lol

I've got my forearms on it once or twice. I think of it as an added bonus!

 

[grrrz]

Well the only "pro" usage for me for the 13" is for live musicians. It's perfect to do this. As the good old macbook white was before they ditched the firewire.
I've seen this white macbook on on hundreds of stages (not including my own gigs).
(the macbook pro 13" is clearly derived from the pre unibody macbook).
And just because you need a hundred tracks at 96kHz doesn't make you a professional, or gives you better results.
talent is. you could already do a lot on 10 years olds computers. The rest is just pure comfort.
anyway something labelled pro doesn't mean anything, that's a very basic marketing stuff, just mean slightly better, and in some case it's there to hide that the product is crap.
The basic processor in the mbp 13" is fine to handle 99% of audio projects. and freeze is always a -not so terrible-option. It's about three times faster than my 2007 macbook, and with it you could already do a lot, just required to be more careful and use the freeze function some times. There I just get better latency, and better comfort.
only problem is gpu overheating (see other topic)

 

[throAU]

If you want to talk about facts, the performance difference between the current 13" MBP and 13" MBA is less than 20%. That's not really "a lot" in my book. It's got quite a bit more in terms of expansion, though.

Fire up say, 10gb of VMs on a 13" pro with 16gb ram, and attempt to do the same on an MBA with the maximum of 4gb of RAM.

Just try and tell me the MBA is 20% faster. Or that the pro is "only 20% faster".


Fit an SSD to the MBP, and bench it back to back with an MBA on ANY benchmark, and tell me which one is faster.

The MBA is somewhat faster on IO intensive benchmarks when both machines are in base-model spec. If you deviate from base model spec in the MBP, it's in a totally different class to the MBA.

The MBA has no option for appropriate spec for that workload. An MBP will handle it just fine.

 

[Z3man]

is there any info anywhere where someone has compared a base macbook pro fitted with an SSD against a base macbook air.

 

[mac jones]

I posted above, that it's a dog cuz of the resolution.

Since that post I've thought about it and have changed my mind.

THe reason i've changed my mind is that recently i've using an app (an important app i'm using these days) that is gobbling up around 4gb.

Now, an Air ain't gonna cut it like this. You would need a Pro if your going go Apple.

So the point is, the 13 Pro is looking better

 

[Yaboze]

It's been said before in this thread but I have noticed the 13" MBP gets ragged sometimes. I truly believe it's because of the MBA. The 13" MBA has the same form factor but it's thinner, lighter and has a higher resolution screen. Performance is close. GPU is still integrated.

I look at it this way, if you want to swap out HDD's and want all the ports, get a 13" MBP, there's nothing wrong with it.

I think the only thing that bothers me about it is the 1280x800 display, they really need to make it the same as the 13" MBA.

Also, I don't know of any laptop that has a replacable GPU and CPU, I would never expect that when buying a laptop. I work in a Windows environment and there's a lot of people here with 13" MBP's running virtualization stuff. You need extra RAM and storage for that.

 

[Z3man]

i hope apple leave the pro resolution as it is, i have just owned an air with the higher resolution screen and everything is smaller, everything is kind of zoomed out, it makes the text way too small on some websites.

i dont understand why apple thinks that if they use high resolution screens everything has to be smaller. if you buy a new 32" TV, whether it has a 720p or 1080p resolution screen, everything shown on it is still the same size, you don't all of a sudden find everything on it is smaller but more of it.

 

[rockyroad55]

i hope apple leave the pro resolution as it is, i have just owned an air with the higher resolution screen and everything is smaller, everything is kind of zoomed out, it makes the text way too small on some websites.

i dont understand why apple thinks that if they use high resolution screens everything has to be smaller. if you buy a new 32" TV, whether it has a 720p or 1080p resolution screen, everything shown on it is still the same size, you don't all of a sudden find everything on it is smaller but more of it.

You could always zoom in on the text. That way, it will look crisper on the screen.

 

[Z3man]

You could always zoom in on the text. That way, it will look crisper on the screen.

tried that and a few other things but nothing really worked, non were an ideal solution, they were just temporary work arounds. i always found myself wanting to go back to my original air with the lower resolution screen. doesn't really matter now anyway as i have a new pro on the way.

 

[iThinkergoiMac]

Fire up say, 10gb of VMs on a 13" pro with 16gb ram, and attempt to do the same on an MBA with the maximum of 4gb of RAM.

Just try and tell me the MBA is 20% faster. Or that the pro is "only 20% faster".

Well, when you are working with non-stock configurations, the differences between the stock configurations don't matter much, do they. In stock configurations, the difference is about 20%. If you cram 4x the stock amount of RAM in, that obviously changes. You're reaching for straws on this one.

 

[gpzjock]

One is expandable the other isn't.

Well, when you are working with non-stock configurations, the differences between the stock configurations don't matter much, do they. In stock configurations, the difference is about 20%. If you cram 4x the stock amount of RAM in, that obviously changes. You're reaching for straws on this one.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there is no expansion on the MBA. The potential performance gains of increased RAM to 16GB or replacing the mechanical HDD with a SSD in a MBP is exactly the point about increased performance.
Horses for courses, if the limits the MBA has imposed on it by being non expandable make it less viable than a MBP for your specific requirements then you would be better off with an expanded MBP 13" and a few quid left over. The MBA is a great piece of kit but in some cases it is not the right choice.
It isn't a level playing field when the MBP can "cheat" by getting after market addons.

I love expansion and spare ports, my Mac Pro Octo 2008 still rocks with 16GB RAM, SSD system drive, 2.4 Tb of HDD storage and a HD5870. If it still had the 2GB RAM, 320 GB HDD and HD2600XT card that it came with I would have replaced it years ago.

 

[iThinkergoiMac]

I think the point he was trying to make is that there is no expansion on the MBA. The potential performance gains of increased RAM to 16GB or replacing the mechanical HDD with a SSD in a MBP is exactly the point about increased performance.

No question that the 13" MBP is more expandable, and I've never argued that it isn't more expandable than the MBA. It's just not all that expandable in its own right.

 

[daffy67]

I debated for weeks with myself over MBA/MBP which to buy, in the end I came across a late 2011 MBP with 3 yrs Applecare for WAY less $$ than the MBA, bought it on the spot.
Since the $$ won me over, if i was true to what I ultimately use a laptop for it would have been the Air.

 

[ayzee]

Only thing about the air that urks me is that I pay all that money, and can't upgrade the ram????

Give me the mbp anyday. If I wanted that much portability I'd just get an iPad

 

[philipma1957]

why does everyone seem to rag on the 13" MBP? i don't really do any gaming, and with the airplay mirroring coming up in mountain lion, is the resolution even that big a deal?

people are ignorant as to the potential of its upgrades. buy a stock model at amazon dot com for 1120.


http://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBook...IVYI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1332079980&sr=8-2



buy 16 gb ram at newegg for 150 bucks


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231533


and buy an ssd like the mushkin chronos deluxe for 280 at newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226226


this drive will be in stock on the 19



you have a very good machine for 1550.

it will step all over the best macbook air. price for the top of the line MB air is 1699 plus tax.

and it has the bonus of an optical player.


what is better ;

the cpu is better.

the ram is better.

the ssd is close. 3 year warranty. for the mushkin.

you have a spare hdd when you do the swap a 500gb you can keep or sell on ebay.

the optical drive.

But wait there is more. the 13 inch mbp has a fw800 the 13 inch macbook air has none.

the graphics will go to 512mb on the macbook pro due to the 16gb ram.

and the most important is the ethernet jack. that the macbook pro has and the macbook air does not. a lot of places wi fi does not work but a hard wire jack works just fine.


the downside the macbook pro weighs in at 4.5 pounds vs 3 pounds.

screen picture is a bit better on the macbook air.

 

[brenden]

Love my 13mbp only wish it had the MBA screen resolutio.

 

[Naimfan]

If you want to talk about facts, the performance difference between the current 13" MBP and 13" MBA is less than 20%. That's not really "a lot" in my book. It's got quite a bit more in terms of expansion, though.

The Air commands a huge price premium to give you LESS performance and capability than the base Pro. The Pro also provides expandability and connectivity options that the Air does not. Plus, the Air feels like a toy.

 

[NickZac]

Ragging is not the correct term but I understand what you are getting at. I had a 13 inch and I loved it. I have a 15 inch and I love it. Before, the 13 inch's greater portability and lower price worked better for me. Today, the 15 inch's larger screen and quad core CPU work better for me as the tasks I do today are different than those I did yesterday.

The 13 and the 15 are very different beasts. With that said, the 15 and 17 are very different beasts as well, despite their hardware similarities. Those working certain datasets, rendering, designing, editing, etc. with programs that are optimized for quad core CPUs can see a substantial performance over a dual core CPU. Also, the 15 inch's screen works better for the work I do now.

Now is there anything wrong with the 13? Absolutely not. The 13 inch outperforms the previous flagship 15/17. The dual core SB is plenty fast. Even the older C2D MBPs still will perform just fine for most users. My brother has the most recent refresh and it is not a slow computer by any means. It is even more awesome than my older C2D model was. However, he moves around more than I and so the smaller form factor fits him better. He also does less resource-intensive programs than I and so the CPU difference between the 13 and 15 are really unimportant, but with the programs he DOES use, the difference between the 13 MBP and MBA is important. I can't speak to gaming as neither him nor I play games on our machines but I imagine both do well for what they are despite neither being made as a 'gaming' laptop. For my mother, all of the MBPs are unnecessarily large as she only uses very 'light' programs, never uses the ODD, and favors ultra portability as she is on the go...and so for her, the MBA fit the bill perfectly. My father hates laptops all together and so none of them work for him.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as a better sized MBP. There is only better relative to an individual user's needs.