Why dosent apple adopt new technology?

[James Philp]

And if you read my post, you'd see that it wasn't the non-upgradability that was the problem, it was the combination of non-upgradability (lack of PCMCIA in iBook and no PCI in iMac), non-expandability (using USB 1.1 instead of 2.0), and lack of support for older computers (AirPort not sold, only AirPort Extreme). If any of these had been done differently, then I wouldn't be bitching. Hell, the one that pisses me off the most is that used AirPort cards on eBay sell for twice what a new AirPort Extreme card goes for.
By forward compatible, I meant that if Apple had used a standard connector, like PCMCIA, then I could easily put in either an original 802.11b card, or upgrade to a new 802.11g card. The machine would be forward compatible.

All notebooks, including your PowerBook use PCMCIA, and the iBook has something like that, so I think it's reasonable to be annoyed that they didn't just stick with the standard.
Or just stick with a standard PCMCIA slot, and use USB 2.0 when it was originally available, instead of intentionally crippling the hardware...

Does any of apple laptop even come with a PCMCIA slot on them to allow for those minor upgrades.[/Qoute]

My 4 year old Pismo has PCMCIA, as do the Current 15" and 17" PBs.
That's how i'm using airport via a PCMCIA 802.11g Linksys card (no drivers needed - shoved it in and the airport symbol turned up in the menubar). Only seem to have 802.11b though - not sure PCMCIA supports g?

Do all PC laptops have PCMCIA?

I don't know why USB 2 is so much better than firewire? Perhaps you can explain? We've already discussed that firewire is faster.

 

[6749974]

You are gonna love this one...there is a new invention...it's called email. You can actually attach documents and send them to people without ever having to see them...and it's pretty much free...

I was just about to say that. If you wanna move a document that can fit on a floppy, forget a floppy, email it. Shoot, why didnt you just print it? And CDR's cost 5 Cents, so in theory, there are 26 CDR's under your sofa pillow...right...now.

 

[Timelessblur]

umm more stuff use USB over firewire. Really thing about it how much stuff do you have the use firewire I think you come up with a short list. Now list you USB stuff and it be a long list. For firewire I got an ipod. For usb some where around 7 items long.

I think I stated earily who was leading. Everone else but it would be a small maker. But of the big names and the leader in manufactoring Apple is near dead last.

I think it kind of funny seeing how arguments change over time from Apple. From them braging about being the one pushing new standards to now they have to defind the fact that they are behind in the new standands and not pushing the limits to make new stuff standard.

 

[James Philp]

umm more stuff use USB over firewire. Really thing about it how much stuff do you have the use firewire I think you come up with a short list. Now list you USB stuff and it be a long list. For firewire I got an ipod. For usb some where around 7 items long.

I think I stated earily who was leading. Everone else but it would be a small maker. But of the big names and the leader in manufactoring Apple is near dead last.

I think it kind of funny seeing how arguments change over time from Apple. From them braging about being the one pushing new standards to now they have to defind the fact that they are behind in the new standands and not pushing the limits to make new stuff standard.

so what have you got for usb 2? all 7 items please!

Firewire:
iPod (Mini, 3rg Gen, Original)
LaCie D2 CDRW Drive
LaCie Old 60GB External HD

USB 2:
iPod Shuffle, CF card reader (that I got free with a card)

USB 1.1 (Championed by apple lest we forget!)
Keyboard, printer, scanner

FW -5
USB2 - 2
USB1 - 3

What actually uses the datarate of usb 2 apart from external HD's and CD/DVD-R drives (of which there are plenty of firewire alternatives, including firewire 800)

 

[James Philp]

I think it kind of funny seeing how arguments change over time from Apple. From them braging about being the one pushing new standards to now they have to defind the fact that they are behind in the new standands and not pushing the limits to make new stuff standard.

So, apart from PCI-express and 802.11n (n for never gonna catch on! 😉) what have apple really missed? and on the + side Firewire 800, Gigabit Ethernet.

Where it REALLY counts though, Apple is riht there. The OS.

 

[mtscott]

umm more stuff use USB over firewire. Really thing about it how much stuff do you have the use firewire I think you come up with a short list. Now list you USB stuff and it be a long list. For firewire I got an ipod. For usb some where around 7 items long.

Yeah, and how much of that stuff requires greater than 11Mbps that USB 1.1 is capable of delivering? But of course with you, I bet you're going to say that 6 out of the 7 items need greater speed.

I think I stated earily who was leading. Everone else but it would be a small maker. But of the big names and the leader in manufactoring Apple is near dead last.

What do you mean by who is leading? Do you simply mean who is incorporating ALL of the NEWEST technology? In that case, your own arguement about 802.11a is TOTALLY FLAWED since 802.11a is older than 802.11g! If you then try to say it's about technology that's BETTER/FASTER, then I guess that makes you a total liar. Since as you said, and I quote:

As for dumping the floppy drive I am sorry but I still like having my floppy drive and it currently in my computer. I call it my 10 buck insurences and I still use floppies. They are really good for moving around small files and turning in small files to my teacher.

As for my advocating floppies it mostly because they still have thier uses. Do most people need them no but there are still plenty fo valid uses for them

Floppies are slower and less reliable. So, why should Apple put technology into their systems that isn't really being used just yet. If AGP8x is only at 60% capacity, would you see a benefit of Apple adopting PCIe for graphics when cards can't even use the full bandwidth?

I think it kind of funny seeing how arguments change over time from Apple.

Andybody here work for Apple?

From them braging about being the one pushing new standards to now they have to defind the fact that they are behind in the new standands and not pushing the limits to make new stuff standard.

Ok, do you have amnesia? YOU complained PowerMacs don't have PCIx, which then you've been proved wrong about, 3 times I might add. PCIx is a new standard. Bluetooth 2 is a new standard. SerialATA is a new standard.

 

[flyfish29]

The most obvious time Apple was behind in technology was when all they had were slow Motorola processors in their pro lineup. It was sad when PowerMac processor speeds actually decreased by 50 MHz across the line during 1999.

I think the biggest boat they missed was CDR drives. Remember when they jumped on the DVD bandwagon instead cause they were thinking everything was coming out on DVD for computers- but instead the only thing on dvd for software at the time was a MYST game(Riven?) and something else- PC world put in burners for cd's and Apple was way behind as a result for the multimedia- course they more than made up for it. Actually I think that was instrumental in Apple learning that you should not always do something unless there is content- and they are applying what they learned in the video iPod- no content yet, but when they dive into it the content will be there!

I am happy for the most part with most of their decisions- the cdr one really burned me 😀 though- especially since I think it was the same time they dropped the floppy- burning cd's made sense at the time for those of us who didn't always want or could no send files by email.

 

[plinden]

umm more stuff use USB over firewire. Really thing about it how much stuff do you have the use firewire I think you come up with a short list. Now list you USB stuff and it be a long list. For firewire I got an ipod. For usb some where around 7 items long.

Don't know why I'm bothering - it won't make you think before posting - but just off the top of my head.

Firewire:
iPods, external HD, external CD/DVD writers, just about every digital video camera, many digital still cameras.

USB2:
Same as firewire

USB1.1:
keyboards, mice, printers

 

[mcgarry]

First, I think plinden made a very good point. Hardware-wise, sometimes Apple is ahead, sometimes they lag in some ways. Why is this surprising? But it is another matter entirely to act like they are "falling behind" for good because of a current lack of DL-burner inclusion, or whatever. Arguing that would be as ill-informed, if not worse, as arguing that Apple is always the best in everything. These things are cyclical, and for better or worse, Apple as the sole computer manufacturer for the Mac OS cannot release new systems every 2 months. And what about that OS ...?

Second, a couple hardware innovations of recent Apple history have gone unmentioned thus far. This is possibly because they are relatively banal, not nearly as nerd-sexy as PCIe or Blu-Ray, but they were nonetheless huge to the broader market. The TiBooks were not quite the first 15" laptops, but their combination of light weight and big screen created a new market space. As for 17" laptops, Apple made the world's first. Apple was also the first to put a DVD-burner in a laptop, I think. And I'd like to reiterate the innovation of the original clamshell iBooks and their built-in Airport cards: no other laptop manufacturer offered this feature at the time: built-in wireless networking. This was small technologically (Apple didn't invent 802.11b, they just decided to use it), but a huge development for the way we use laptops today (Centrino, anyone?).

 

[sambo.]

my two cents

As for dumping the floppy drive I am sorry but I still like having my floppy drive and it currently in my computer. I call it my 10 buck insurences and I still use floppies. They are really good for moving around small files and turning in small files to my teacher.

umm, i got me a G3/333 powerbook WAAAAYYYYYY back in '99. many, MANY colleagues gave me sheisse about it not having a floppy drive. I thought about getting an expansion bay one, but got a Zip drive instead.

have rarely used the Zip drive, and not for a coupla years since it **** itself and have never needed a floppy drive. the last time i used a 3.5" disc was sometime in 1998.

oh yeah, i still use that G3/333. currently on OS9.2. i whacked X.1 on it, but t'was dogarse slo, p'raps tiger will be a little more compatible with it. in hindsight, i should have coughed up for the G3/400 at the time, but the 333 still does what i bought it to do (scan negs/download from digi camera, view/edit and x-mit same). when it was new, it was king-sheisse laptop, still gets admiring glances these days.

so for my $4000 (OUCH), i have had six years of computing and have a machine that still has a use in my business. cheap!

 

[MarkCollette]

Does any of apple laptop even come with a PCMCIA slot on them to allow for those minor upgrades.[/Qoute]

My 4 year old Pismo has PCMCIA, as do the Current 15" and 17" PBs.
That's how i'm using airport via a PCMCIA 802.11g Linksys card (no drivers needed - shoved it in and the airport symbol turned up in the menubar). Only seem to have 802.11b though - not sure PCMCIA supports g?

Do all PC laptops have PCMCIA?

Every one that I've seen.

I don't know why USB 2 is so much better than firewire? Perhaps you can explain? We've already discussed that firewire is faster.

Firewire is better, but USB is more ubiquitous, and cheaper, since it's master/slave, instead of peer2peer, so the chips are simpler and cheaper.

 

[MarkCollette]

so what have you got for usb 2? all 7 items please!

Firewire:
iPod (Mini, 3rg Gen, Original)
LaCie D2 CDRW Drive
LaCie Old 60GB External HD

USB 2:
iPod Shuffle, CF card reader (that I got free with a card)

USB 1.1 (Championed by apple lest we forget!)
Keyboard, printer, scanner

FW -5
USB2 - 2
USB1 - 3

What actually uses the datarate of usb 2 apart from external HD's and CD/DVD-R drives (of which there are plenty of firewire alternatives, including firewire 800)

I think it's more a matter of, for every Firewire product on the shelf, there are 3 for USB, and the USB ones are cheaper. Now, admittedly, the Firewire ones probably use less CPU cycles, since Firewire is technically superior to USB in that matter, but some of us are on a budget, and some of us don't have access to Apple stores where the Firewire stuff is.

Here's a classic example: I went into a generic computer store a year or two ago, looking for a new scanner. There were parallel port ones and USB ones all over the place. I don't remember seeing a Firewire one anywhere for less than $100 CDN, whereas I could choose between several USB ones. I went with HP.

 

[KingSleaze]

I've noticed that a bunch of people have made one common mistake. Wintel PC's were the first to have USB support. Problem was, it usually needed a card to use. Windows 95 included support for it. Still, nobody POPULARIZED USB like Apple did when they introduced the first iMac. After the iMac came out, manufacturers started really producing USB peripherals and the PC makers start including it in their machines.

 

[jaw04005]

The only technology that Apple was EXTREMELY reluctant to adopt was USB 2.0.

However, that was primarily due to the fact that they believed USB 2.0 would overtake Firewire. Looking back, that was a silly mistake, both technologies easily co-exsist.

 

[James Philp]

So is the scanner you got USB 1 or 2?
I find my scanner a bit slow, but I don't use it frequently.
This is all a bit mute, because the reason there are so many USB peripherals out there is because of Apple!

and some of us don't have access to Apple stores where the Firewire stuff is.

Here's a classic example: I went into a generic computer store a year or two ago, looking for a new scanner. There were parallel port ones and USB ones all over the place. I don't remember seeing a Firewire one anywhere for less than $100 CDN, whereas I could choose between several USB ones. I went with HP.

Plus, do you have the internet 😉 - Most people have access to this, and you can always find a firewire alternative. (Amaz-what?)
Sure, there may not be as many, and they may be more expensive, but this is generally because:
1. They are superior hence the cost.
2. They actually use the bandwidth and hence are faster.

 

[jaw04005]

I've noticed that a bunch of people have made one common mistake. Wintel PC's were the first to have USB support. Problem was, it usually needed a card to use. Windows 95 included support for it.

To get really technical, only an OEM release of Windows 95 known as OSR 2 supported USB. Microsoft did not support USB in Windows 95a, which was the retail version of the product.

Microsoft started "really" supporting USB in Windows 98.

 

[MarkCollette]

So is the scanner you got USB 1 or 2?
I find my scanner a bit slow, but I don't use it frequently.
This is all a bit mute, because the reason there are so many USB peripherals out there is because of Apple!

Plus, do you have the internet 😉 - Most people have access to this, and you can always find a firewire alternative. (Amaz-what?)
Sure, there may not be as many, and they may be more expensive, but this is generally because:
1. They are superior hence the cost.
2. They actually use the bandwidth and hence are faster.

USB 1.1 runs at 11 Mbps, which is close to what a PC parallel port can do. In the old days, scanners came in two main flavors: slow parallel port ones, and faster SCSI ones. USB 2.0 scanners are basically a cheaper way of having the speed of older SCSI scanners. So, scanners have for a long time been capable of exceeding USB 1.1 bandwidth.

My scanner is USB 2.0, which is luckily backwards compatible with USB 1.1, so it at least works, abheit not as fast as possible.

I know that Apple popularised USB. But I also know that they used to make royalties off of Firewire, which might explain why they backed it over USB 2.0. Eventually they gave up, and I think they dropped the royalty.

 

[mtscott]

Something that I think some people don't know, but not all USB 2.0 devices are HiSpeed. From Wikipeida:

USB 2.0 added a Hi-Speed rate of 480 Mbit (60 MBytes) per second. Not all USB 2.0 devices are Hi-Speed. A USB device should specify the speed it will use by correct labeling on the box it came in or sometimes on the device itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB

 

[James Philp]

I had a scsi HP scanner for my Pentium 2.
It was slow as hell compared to the one i currently use on my USB 1 ports!
That may be a machine speed thing though!

 

[jared_kipe]

Don't you think that's a little bit much? Have you ever tried using tape as a primary storage medium? That's what the computer we had when I was six years old had.... And my mother learned to program on *punch cards*! 😱

I'm not sad to see the floppy go, as its time is past, but when it became the adopted standard, it was a huge improvement over what was in common use before it.

No kidding, my upper level Physics optical and nuclear labs use floppy disks as the ONLY way students can get information off of the computer except printing. I'd rather take a picture of the screen than save to a floppy drive, thankyou.

Oh but apparantly we have a professor who is a die hard mac user who has created some mac only apps to demo things like Fraunhoffer-Fresnel diffraction and what not. Now we have ONE mac in the physics department, that is except my ibook that I take to lab every day.

 

[Timelessblur]

Good grief I stated no where that floppies where part of tech that should not of been dump if you Read back where I orginal stated stuff about floppies I just stated they have thier uses but I get flamed for it because I still use floppies. No where did I stated that floppies should/shoud not be dumped. I not willing to give them up yet because I still use them and it was a 10 buck insurences for me for the times I need it. No where did I stated that they needed to be sold. Go back and find the very first time I posted about floppies and it was just me stating that I still use them and I was correct some saying that they where useless.

For USB 2.0 what do I have that uses it
2 flash drives, my digicam use it, my printer/scanner uses it, web cam. As for just USB you have my keyboard, both my mice, I plug my calucaltor into USB, I also have a zip drive run though USB but I never really use it I just have one.

Firewire has less everyday stuff for it currently only the ipod. For most everything things a vast majority of people use USB 2.0. Even now the all mighty ipod is going USB 2.0 over firewire. You can use firewire but it not sold with firewire cable any more.

Beside PCI express Apple does not have Dual layer burners. I remeber when Apple users raved about how PC where behind the times because they did not have firewire. Now it the other way around Apple users have to eat the fact that they can not get Daul layer burners with their computer, They can not get PCI express.

 

[solvs]

I've been looking at getting an internal burner and putting it into an external firewire enclosure, but I have no idea if that would actually work on a Mac.

Works fine. Do what I did, and buy a combo USB/firewire case and a regular IDE cd-burner. Any will do, but go to www.xlr8yourmac.com to see if it's got native support in OS X or if you need PatchBurn. Or go all out and just buy a Pioneer DVD-R.

BTW - PCI-E sucks at this point. Like DDR2, it's no better than the tech it's trying to replace. All but the low end PowerMacs support PCI-X. 1 133MHz one and 2 100MHz ones. 802.11n is nothing at this point. It's not even like Gb ethernet was a few years ago. You can buy Mac compatible USB to 802.11 adapters for older Macs if you don't want to buy used. It is too bad that the b and g connectors are different so older users are locked out of newer cards. USB 2 should have been fully adopted years ago, but it wasn't. Now it is. Same with ATA/133, but now we have Serial/ATA. Floppies suck. You still need them, buy a USB floppy device. High end PowerBooks have PC Card slots. Always have. Dual layer would be nice. If you must have it, buy an external or replace the internal. Some people have even hacked the current drives to make them DL compatible. Hopefully the next update has them standard. If not, then b*tch. No one has Blu-Ray. Too expensive, not standardized. Wait a year. It's supported in up coming software, so if you must have it, go ahead and buy it.

And we can stop arguing with Timelessblur. It's not like we're going to get anywhere. We're all just zealots who can't see how horribly overpriced and underpowered Macs are.

 

[killmoms]

Beside PCI express Apple does not have Dual layer burners. I remeber when Apple users raved about how PC where behind the times because they did not have firewire. Now it the other way around Apple users have to eat the fact that they can not get Daul layer burners with their computer, They can not get PCI express.

You've said this about 10 times in this thread, at least. We get it. We've already done our best to tell you why A) Apple no longer pushes the newest technology first (learned from past mistakes) and B) Why Apple are staying out of these two particular technologies for now. You've done your best to ignore us. This thread should be locked, as it's clearly going nowhere.

 

[mkrishnan]

No kidding, my upper level Physics optical and nuclear labs use floppy disks as the ONLY way students can get information off of the computer except printing. I'd rather take a picture of the screen than save to a floppy drive, thankyou.

Yeah, physics labs are notorious that way! 😀 I had to measure the lifetime of the muon with a Mac II. 😀

 

[jayb2000]

what about email?

lets see for moving files bettween friends I have use USB thumb drives but for turning stuff into teachers lets see what is cheaper. spending 5-6 bucks on cds over the years (50cents a cd turning in an average of 1 a week) or spending 1 buck on a floppy that can used for the entire semester.

But it also helpful for giving out some small files to group partners because they files can be edited plus the risk of me loosing looking much money if the disk is lost is small compared to replacing a thumb drive. If the file gets corrupted I may loose 30 mins worth of work since the oringal are always back up on our computers.

You are free to give me a 16-30 meg flash drive. You willing to risk loosing that over a 1 buck floppy. Floppies still have thier uses and people still use them. It just I still use floppies drives and I not willing to give them up yet. I call it my 10 buck insurenest plan (that is counting the cost of the drive and the floppy). And yes I have delt with loosing datas on modern floppies. Personaly I like to use floppies that are about 5-6 years old because back then they where made of much high quiltiy. As for the lost data it took me about 10-20 mins to get it all back since the oringinals where saved on the computer I just lost some minor editing and debugging work I did in the lab but it was easy enough to fix back in my room since I did the hard part in the lab and that was figuring out what was wrong.

Floppies can only hold 1.4mb why not just email the file?
Most newer PCs are dropping floppies as well. There is no need for floppies with email, CDs, flash drives, and portab le hard drives (iPods included)