[WW] Knee-Deep in the Dead - WOOF WOOF WEREWOLVES WIN

[Scepticalscribe]

Again, very well done wolves; this new format seems to suit those of the lupine persuasion, but, again, you make choices, take chances and use powers intelligently, and this was done, here.

There are a few points - and, perhaps, suggestions - I would like to make, but I'll wait for @twietee to give the full breakdown of the game before addressing them.

By the way, @twietee, excellent handling of what must have been a very complex game. Bravo.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

i am sure you did.
i was hoping i might still be protected by sythas

i think if we didn't come out it would have been a very easy win for you guys. this way we came close.

Guard's protection ends if the guard dies surely?!

 

[Don't panic]

I'd say allow it be used day 1 as well - so it can still be used if the villagers randomly lynch the alpha the first day.

that would be a reasonable compromise.

 

[Don't panic]

Guard's protection ends if the guard dies surely?!

it depends, it could go either way, based on how one envision the power 'working', the GG's take, precedents.
I am sure we played mostly that the protection, once placed, just lasts until the end of the period, no matter if the guard dies that night. but it could be the opposite as well, which thematically makes more sense.
not sure what would twietee have done, if the situation had arisen.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

rick snagwell - Scavenger
Sythas - Guard
Moyank24 - infected villager/Thug/NW
Scepticalscribe - Spy
Don't panic - Die-Hard
Plutonius - Swapper
Koodauw - Rioter
chrmjenkins - Hunter/NW
Melrose - Alpha/Bluff
anjinha - Judge
Queen of Spades - Reverber
ravenvii - Leech
comeagain? - Executioner
TechGod - Undertaker
FenrisMoonlight - Kami/Soother
Intell - Amplifier
Tomorrow - Seer
WoodNUFC - Necromancer
Astroboy907 - Morpher​

Looking at that we were lucky with our first two kills

chrmjenkins - NW/Hunter - Night 1
WoodNUFC - Necromancer - Night 2

 

[Moyank24]

I wanted to kill you rather than Tomorrow but it was Moyank's decision at that point. Was thinking you'd look for who people jumped on and then take out the other person who couldn't be an original wolf.

I was thinking that Tomorrow would have more suspicion of me than comeagain? and gambled that he wouldn't use his power at the end.

Waking up with the ability to lock rick and end the game was a welcome surprise. I don't think it would have been as easy with Tomorrow still alive!

Edit:

and @Don't panic chrmjenkins and I actually DID agree not to reveal our roles in case of infection. He died before I was turned, but I chuckled when you said that was weird.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'd say allow it be used day 1 as well - so it can still be used if the villagers randomly lynch the alpha the first day.

that would be a reasonable compromise.

Yes, that is reasonable that it can be used during the day on Day 1 only (if the Alpha is threatened) and, after that, at night time only.

Thoughts on the WWS being able to 'capture' the power of the Seer, rather than the infection of the Seer?

Personally, I would draw a distinction between the two. Infecting the Seer successfully has always been a possible tactic, but being able to seize the power of the Seer (by leeching) robs the village of a Core power that was never intended to be used by the WWs, and gives the WWs too much power,

However, it is a superb strike, if carried out successfully, as it was here, and the wolves should be allowed some small gain for having managed to pull something of the sort off.

I would suggest something on the lines of - if something like this happens again - such as allowing the WWs one successful scan immediately after which the Seer power self-destructs as it was never designed to be in the hands of, or wielded by wolves, unless wielded by its properly designated Seer, even if the latter is infected.

 

[Don't panic]

I was thinking that Tomorrow would have more suspicion of me than comeagain? and gambled that he wouldn't use his power at the end.

Waking up with the ability to lock rick and end the game was a welcome surprise. I don't think it would have been as easy with Tomorrow still alive!

i agree. plus tomorrow was basically cleared, so it made a lot more sense to kill him.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

I was thinking that Tomorrow would have more suspicion of me than comeagain? and gambled that he wouldn't use his power at the end.

Waking up with the ability to lock rick and end the game was a welcome surprise. I don't think it would have been as easy with Tomorrow still alive!

Yeah I bet that was nice.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

Yes, that is reasonable that it can be used during the day on Day 1 only (if the Alpha is threatened) and, after that, at night time only.

Thoughts on the WWS being able to 'capture' the power of the Seer, rather than the infection of the Seer?

Personally, I would draw a distinction between the two. Infecting the Seer successfully has always been a possible tactic, but being able to seize the power of the Seer (by leeching) robs the village of a Core power that was never intended to be used by the WWs, and gives the WWs too much power,

However, it is a superb strike, if carried out successfully, as it was here, and the wolves should be allowed some small gain for having managed to pull something of the sort off.

I would suggest something on the lines of - if something like this happens again - such as allowing the WWs one successful scan immediately after which the Seer power self-destructs as it was never designed to be in the hands of, or wielded by wolves, unless wielded by its properly designated Seer, even if the latter is infected.

I think the villagers pretty much deactivated it themselves anyway. After they'd all revealed roles scanning anyone else was pointless.

If you do make it self destruct if swapped/leeched then I think it needs to do the same if a villager takes it from the current seer.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think the villagers pretty much deactivated it themselves anyway. After they'd all revealed roles scanning anyone else was pointless.

If you do make it self destruct if swapped/leeched then I think it needs to do the same if a villager takes it from the current seer.

Not necessarily as a scan will still reveal a double-hatted wolf who may simply have admitted to wearing another hat and playing a different role in the thread.

The point is that the successful theft of the role of Seer made identifying wolves impossible unless and until confirmed after a successful lynching.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

I think the villagers pretty much deactivated it themselves anyway. After they'd all revealed roles scanning anyone else was pointless.

If you do make it self destruct if swapped/leeched then I think it needs to do the same if a villager takes it from the current seer.

Swapping/leeching other powers can also be very nasty (possibly worse than Seer). If we'd got hold of Executioner / Die-Hard / Hunter / Necromancer.

Note: we confirmed with Twietee that swapping the nightly kill would enable us to swap a power without anyone knowing it happened - the person who'd been swapped would die at the same time they found out. I imagine the same would be true for leech.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

Not necessarily as a scan will still reveal a double-hatted wolf who may simply have admitted to wearing another hat and playing a different role in the thread.

The point is that the successful theft of the role of Seer made identifying wolves impossible unless and until confirmed after a successful lynching.

ok - it was pointless for us to continue scanning as we already knew the wolves and could assume everyone else was telling the truth. It gave us another way of neutralizing the Seer rather than having to kill him.

I think a better solution would possibly be to make it so the guard prevents swapping/leeching as well as kill/infection.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Swapping/leeching other powers can also be very nasty (possibly worse than Seer). If we'd got hold of Executioner / Die-Hard / Hunter / Necromancer.

Note: we confirmed with Twietee that swapping the nightly kill would enable us to swap a power without anyone knowing it happened - the person who'd been swapped would die at the same time they found out. I imagine the same would be true for leech.

Well, I don't have the same issue with those powers as they are not necessarily 'Core' powers the way the Seer and Guard are. Just as the 'alpha' needs to be protected above all other wolves - because of the power of infection - then, the Seer on the village side also requires special care.

That power was never intended in its raw sense to be a WW one; if the Seer is killed, or infected, that is a risk.

In the standard WW games, if someone is infected, the power stays with them, but switches allegiance.

Re the other powers, that is a risk - and, as we saw, mistakes can be made when using them.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

ok - it was pointless for us to continue scanning as we already knew the wolves and could assume everyone else was telling the truth. It gave us another way of neutralizing the Seer rather than having to kill him.

I think a better solution would possibly be to make it so the guard prevents swapping/leeching as well as kill/infection.

Yes. That is a good solution. Agreed. Guard should be able to protect against leeching.

But - if the Seer power is leeched in the future - I'd recommend a limit, such as a self-destruct mechanism which allows one scan before it becomes impossible to use, and maybe a time limit for use, too.

Edit: That would also ensure that the Village would have been deprived of the role.

And - while most have told the truth most of the time, some may have lied strategically at times, which makes the scan a useful source of confirmation.

 

[Plutonius]

Well, I don't have the same issue with those powers as they are not necessarily 'Core' powers the way the Seer and Guard are. Just as the 'alpha' needs to be protected above all other wolves - because of the power of infection - then, the Seer on the village side also requires special care.

That power was never intended in its raw sense to be a WW one; if the Seer is killed, or infected, that is a risk.

In the standard WW games, if someone is infected, the power stays with them, but switches allegiance.

Re the other powers, that is a risk - and, as we saw, mistakes can be made when using them.

The seer will never be infected since the WWs are forced to infect early. If you don't allow the WW to steal the seer power, then you need to revert the infection back to anytime. You can't have both.

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

Well, I don't have the same issue with those powers as they are not necessarily 'Core' powers the way the Seer and Guard are. Just as the 'alpha' needs to be protected above all other wolves - because of the power of infection - then, the Seer on the village side also requires special care.

That power was never intended in its raw sense to be a WW one; if the Seer is killed, or infected, that is a risk.

In the standard WW games, if someone is infected, the power stays with them, but switches allegiance.

Re the other powers, that is a risk - and, as we saw, mistakes can be made when using them.

Yeah - rick using his scavenged hunter power on you, definitely helped us.

 

[twietee]

Hope that's accurate:

Nigth 1
Astroboy907 lynched

Day 1
Sythas protects DP
TechGod scans Astroboy907
ss spies on Seer
Tomorrow scans DP
wolves eat chrmjenkins

Night 2
Fenris soothes DP
rick scavenges chrmjenkins
Koodauw lynched

Day 2
Sythas protects himself
TechGod scans Koodauw
ss spies on Undertaker
Tomorrow scans Pluto changes to Intell
wolves eat woodNUFC

Night 3
Intell lynched

Day 3
Sythas protects ss [10:40 AM]
TechGod scans chrmjenkins
ss spies on Seer
tomorrow scans Pluto
rick "insta-kills" ss [10:59 AM]
wolves kill QoS and infect Moyank

Night 4
Pluto swaps Fenris' and Tomorrow's powers
Pluto lynched

Day 4
Sythas protects DP
TechGod scans QoS
ss spies on Undertaker
Fenris scans TechGod
ravenvii leeches rick changes to Tomorrow
wolves eat ss

Night 5
anjinha lynched

Day 5
Sythas protects himself
TechGod scans woodNUFC
Fenris scans DP
wolves eat TechGod

Night 6
Moyank hits #1000
Melrose lynched

Day 6
Sythas protects Tomorrow
wolves eat Sythas. with garlic

Night 7
Fenris the Kami lynched
DP killed - collateral damage

Day 7
Moyank eats Tomorrow

Night 8
rick lynched wolves win

 

[Don't panic]

discussion about powers in general, clarifications, modifications etc. should be moved to the other thread
comments that specifically apply to this game should stay here
i have a talk in a couple hours and still working on it, so i am kinda busy but later i would have more time.

as far as the seer vs the other powers, i feel it works fine as is.
swapper and especially leech can be used by villagers too, and in this case it would have worked fine if ravenvii had timed the leech right (what were you thinking?? ), than it would be a great boon for the village. same with blocker/swapper if a villager had it instead of the WW.

it was a very close game at the end, even with some key village roles absent (by chance) or lost early on, some low participation, and some less then ideal usage, coupled to good roles for WW and a lucky infection (thug AND NW)
even so, with a little more cool-headedness at the end, we could still have won

 

[Scepticalscribe]

The seer will never be infected since the WWs are forced to infect early. If you don't allow the WW to steal the seer power, then you need to revert the infection back to anytime. You can't have both.

No, the wolves are only forced to infect early on if they feel the Alpha is threatened on day 1; they can still infect at Night, and the Seer cannot be protected every night, and, even then, - is only protected every other night if it is known who he/she is, so I don't see that as a valid argument.

Merely because you did not feel it useful in this game - apart from neutralising the power of the village by denying them the power - does not negate the fact that it is the strongest weapon of the village.

If the Seer gets killed - either at night, or by a kami, so be it. Likewise, if the seer is infected, so be it - the game has always had those risks.

However, I do think that the power ought to be qualified and limited if it is to be leeched; otherwise, the WWs hand is too strong.

Besides, infections are not always successful - I have had the frightful experience of attempting a failed infection as an Alpha.

Yeah - rick using his scavenged hunter power on you, definitely helped us.

Subsequently, I assumed he was a WW; even so, it was an idiotic use - or waste - of the power, petulance over-riding any remnant of judgment.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

discussion about powers in general, clarifications, modifications etc. should be moved to the other thread
comments that specifically apply to this game should stay here
i have a talk in a couple hours and still working on it, so i am kinda busy but later i would have more time.

as far as the seer vs the other powers, i feel it works fine as is.
swapper and especially leech can be used by villagers too, and in this case it would have worked fine if ravenvii had timed the leech right (what were you thinking?? ), than it would be a great boon for the village. same with blocker/swapper if a villager had it instead of the WW.

it was a very close game at the end, even with some key village roles absent (by chance) or lost early on, some low participation, and some less then ideal usage, coupled to good roles for WW and a lucky infection (thug AND NW)
even so, with a little more cool-headedness at the end, we could still have won

That is what I had intended to do, but the fact that the discussion took off here seemed to suggest some sort of response might have been a good idea.

 

[twietee]

Anyway, 'twas a fun experience but I fear my village needs me! Four wins for the [WW] in a row? Can't let that happen!

 

[chrmjenkins]

Well that was frustrating to watch

I knew the village was screwed once Fenris pretended to be NW.

Great job twietee

 

[twietee]

Oh, totally forgot: In case anybody wants to sue me: I heavily butchered borrowed from my old pals Lovecraft (New England setting) and Proust (Paris setting) in case you wondered where twietee gets all these strange words from

I spiced it up some tho!

 

[FenrisMoonlight]

No, the wolves are only forced to infect early on if they feel the Alpha is threatened on day 1; they can still infect at Night, and the Seer cannot be protected every night, and, even then, - is only protected every other night if it is known who he/she is, so I don't see that as a valid argument.

Merely because you did not feel it useful in this game - apart from neutralising the power of the village by denying them the power - does not negate the fact that it is the strongest weapon of the village.

If the Seer gets killed - either at night, or by a kami, so be it. Likewise, if the seer is infected, so be it - the game has always had those risks.

However, I do think that the power ought to be qualified and limited if it is to be leeched; otherwise, the WWs hand is too strong.

Besides, infections are not always successful - I have had the frightful experience of attempting a failed infection as an Alpha.




Subsequently, I assumed he was a WW; even so, it was an idiotic use - or waste - of the power, petulance over-riding any remnant of judgment.

TBH I don't see swapping/leeching the power as being that much more of an issue than the Seer being infected - except that the village have no defense against it - other than having the other power in their arsenal to take it first or take it back after. Being able to guard against swap/leech possibly fixes that.

Hope that's accurate:

Nigth 1
Astroboy907 lynched

Day 1
Sythas protects DP
TechGod scans Astroboy907
ss spies on Seer
Tomorrow scans DP
wolves eat chrmjenkins

Night 2
Fenris soothes DP
rick scavenges chrmjenkins
Koodauw lynched

Day 2
Sythas protects himself
TechGod scans Koodauw
ss spies on Undertaker
Tomorrow scans Pluto changes to Intell
wolves eat woodNUFC

Night 3
Intell lynched

Day 3
Sythas protects ss [10:40 AM]
TechGod scans chrmjenkins
ss spies on Seer
tomorrow scans Pluto
rick "insta-kills" ss [10:59 AM]
wolves kill QoS and infect Moyank

Night 4
Pluto swaps Fenris' and Tomorrow's powers
Pluto lynched

Day 4
Sythas protects DP
TechGod scans QoS
ss spies on Undertaker
Fenris scans TechGod
ravenvii leeches rick changes to Tomorrow
wolves eat ss

Night 5
anjinha lynched

Day 5
Sythas protects himself
TechGod scans woodNUFC
Fenris scans DP
wolves eat TechGod

Night 6
Moyank hits #1000
Melrose lynched

Day 6
Sythas protects Tomorrow
wolves eat Sythas. with garlic

Night 7
Fenris the Kami lynched
DP killed - collateral damage

Day 7
Moyank eats Tomorrow

Night 8
rick lynched wolves win

Interesting - confirms what I thought - the Soothe really did give us an extra day of lynching and caused Tomorrow to scan Intell rather than his first choice to scan.

OMG we got lucky with the guard kill - we were deciding between Sythas and Tomorrow. If we'd gone the other way it could have been very different as we'd have missed a kill.