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ateslik

macrumors 6502
Oct 18, 2008
357
472
5-8 years is unbelievably realistic, also illogical, instead of investing for a long term, makes more sense to pay half, and use the other half to buy a better device in 2-3 years (optimistic)

My last MBP was a mid-2009, so that lasted 11 years. I upgraded to 1Tb SSD and maxed the ram to 8Gb and it was still a damn good machine. So good that my neighbor asked to use it during lockdown. If this machine can't last 5 years - half the time - it will be my last Apple laptop.
 
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kaans

macrumors regular
Nov 17, 2014
220
54
Sadly a lot changed since back then, now, it feels more like these devices are designed to fail, to keep things rolling

I had a 2011 Macbook Air, sold it as it's nearing it's Apple EOL, kept that device on charge, 24/7, for almost 9 years, it slept with OS for 9 years, constantly re-charging itself, and when I recently sold it, the battery still lasted ~5 hours easy

Sometimes I regret getting into this Macbook Pro business, I could've just used the Macbook Air, slow and steady wins the race, if the fast just burns down mid-race

I think Apple knows they have us on lockdown, so they can just milk for more money, by not delivering solid devices - and indeed we keep and keep on buying, this thread is a proof too (I myself do it too, but I'm aware that I'm a sucker, I do it with hate, if I didn't need an Apple device to practically compile for Apple devices, I'd just use something else)
 
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ConnorMac

macrumors newbie
Jul 2, 2020
12
36
During appointment today at the Apple Store Genius Bar..

Me to Apple Service Manager:
"Are there any MacBooks in the current Apple product lineup which would not have this same heat and noise issue in the same scenario?" (Scenario: Clamshell, USB-C to DP, 2560x1440, 60Hz, gmail open in Chrome)

Apple Service Manager to me:
"No"

Read my full letter to Mr Tim Cook here
 
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ateslik

macrumors 6502
Oct 18, 2008
357
472
During appointment today at the Apple Store Genius Bar..

Me to Apple Service Manager:
"Are there any MacBooks in the current Apple product lineup which would not have this same heat and noise issue in the same scenario?" (Scenario: Clamshell, USB-C to DP, 2560x1440, 60Hz)

Apple Service Manager to me:
"No"

Read my full letter to Mr Tim Cook here

Nicely done!
 
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PeterJP

macrumors 6502a
Feb 2, 2012
738
491
Leuven, Belgium
Sadly a lot changed since back then, now, it feels more like these devices are designed to fail, to keep things rolling

Perhaps. But things are also different in another way. Technology is now changing so slowly that you can easily expect 5+ years out of even a base model. Is upgrading e.g. to 32GB RAM worth it then? Only if you need it from the start. And then you should still expect it to last 5+ years. My previous MBP lasted me 6+ years and I upgraded because my needs changed (more VMs, less need for ultra-portability).

Read my full letter to Mr Tim Cook here
And then yours isn't even crashing 5 times a day for no reason at all.
 
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sco

macrumors regular
Apr 11, 2013
116
84
Brisbane, Australia
So my 5600M model arrived today... still setting it up. But here's some initial results:

2 x 4K monitors scaled using second from left option - 6W in clamshell, 8W with MacBook Pro display on. No rotation shenanigans needed to get to a reasonable number. On the 5500M it was around 8W in clamshell with rotation needed on one display to get to that number and 20W with the MBPro display on.

Add a third monitor - 1920 x 1200 rotated 90 degrees - so 2 x 4K + 1920x1200 (90 deg) + MBPro display - 8.5W. This would have been 24W on the 5500M.

Will follow up once she's been used in anger for a few days.
 
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alsid02

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2020
11
3
So my 5600M model arrived today... still setting it up. But here's some initial results:

2 x 4K monitors scaled using second from left option - 6W in clamshell, 8W with MacBook Pro display on. No rotation shenanigans needed to get to a reasonable number. On the 5500M it was around 8W in clamshell with rotation needed on one display to get to that number and 20W with the MBPro display on.

Add a third monitor - 1920 x 1200 rotated 90 degrees - so 2 x 4K + 1920x1200 (90 deg) + MBPro display - 8.5W. This would have been 24W on the 5500M.

Will follow up once she's been used in anger for a few days.

Can't wait for mine, coming on the 16th
 
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interbear

macrumors regular
Sep 5, 2012
185
110
UK
Reports on models with the 5600M graphics are indeed encouraging.

After weeks of unacceptable "lid open" noise/heat with my 5500M version running a single external display (widescreen), I'm now almost a week into working exclusively in clamshell mode. I didn't want to run in clamshell for various reasons but the experience is so much better that I've decided to stick with it. Added some decent external speakers and a Shure mic and all is good for MS Teams conference calls. However, I neither wanted nor expected to have to incur the additional expense of these things (the excellent integral speakers and mics on the 16 inch were a key part of my purchase decision) so will continue to escalate the fact that the experience with "lid open" connected to a display is unacceptable. So far, my engagement with Apple support resulted in the "expected behaviour" response. I'm still trying to book in a Genius Bar appointment but they are not available at the moment so I'll have to be patient on that front.

For now though, I am happy running in clamshell mode when connected to a display and of course, the machine runs sweetly when not connected to a display s is fine when I'm on the move.
 
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Cosmo M3

macrumors 6502
Sep 4, 2010
316
219
I have an appointment setup with Apple this morning after asking Support to setup a return/refund for my base model 16” MBP. It's been crashing/restarting almost everyday since February and it's useless to me if I can't leave it docked to my widescreen. My brand new Logitech MX Keys and MX Master 3 mouse for Mac can't even wake it up.

This is easily the least reliable Apple product I've ever owned.
 
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ateslik

macrumors 6502
Oct 18, 2008
357
472
I have an appointment setup with Apple this morning after asking Support to setup a return/refund for my base model 16” MBP. It's been crashing/restarting almost everyday since February and it's useless to me if I can't leave it docked to my widescreen. My brand new Logitech MX Keys and MX Master 3 mouse for Mac can't even wake it up.

This is easily the least reliable Apple product I've ever owned.

Do you have Power Nap turned off in the preferences? With that on I was crashing all the time. With that off it was rock solid. Hot rock solid, but rock solid. lol
 
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Cosmo M3

macrumors 6502
Sep 4, 2010
316
219
Do you have Power Nap turned off in the preferences? With that on I was crashing all the time. With that off it was rock solid. Hot rock solid, but rock solid. lol

I've been working on this issue for months and have tried everything, including Power Nap.

Literally everything.
 
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bomby0

macrumors member
Nov 7, 2014
53
114
If the bug is fixed with the 5600M doesn't that mean Apple knows they really screwed it up?

It could mean it's a hardware issue Apple only fixed with the 5600M and that could mean no fix for 5500/5300 is coming. 🥵

*insert more Apple denials that this is a bug*
 
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CibbySF

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2014
31
20
My initial impression of a just received i9 2.3, 5600m is positive. This new one behaves how I wished/expected the i9/5500m configs I tried (a few actually returning them to Apple along the way).

Right now I have lid open, USBC to an LG 27" 4k display, Parallels running a Windows VM using 2 cores, probably 60 chrome tabs open and Zoom mtg video active. Turbo Boost Pro is not installed. Radeon High Side is 13W (highest I've seen it go), high CPU temp is 70, fans moving around between 2.1-2.4k. On the other configs fans would be 3k+ w a Zoom mtg running (and with TBP enabled). Without TBP on the 5600 config, seems my CPU temp is higher than usual, but fans are lower. I also have 2 USBC cables plugged in on the left side (temp is 56). Switching those to the right plugs didn't impact the fans. The physical temp of the keyboard still gets warm, as does the area above the touchbar, but seems less hot than the others.

With Zoom off, Radeon High Side bounces between 8-10W, CPU temp at 63, fans at 1.8k.

Firing up Ableton Live, Radeon High Side, temp, fans are acting similar to when I had Zoom going.
Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 10.48.41 AM.png

I'll be curious if things go lower once I install TBP, though at these levels I may not need to use it as I have yet to hear the fans from my sitting distance (barely audible when I put my ear up next to it).
 
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Norbert Mikołajczyk

macrumors regular
May 26, 2016
233
67
My initial impression of a just received i9 2.3, 5600m is positive. This new one behaves how I wished/expected the i9/5500m configs I tried (a few actually returning them to Apple along the way).

Right now I have lid open, USBC to an LG 27" 4k display, Parallels running a Windows VM using 2 cores, probably 60 chrome tabs open and Zoom mtg video active. Turbo Boost Pro is not installed. Radeon High Side is 13W (highest I've seen it go), high CPU temp is 70, fans moving around between 2.1-2.4k. On the other configs fans would be 3k+ w a Zoom mtg running (and with TBP enabled). Without TBP on the 5600 config, seems my CPU temp is higher than usual, but fans are lower. I also have 2 USBC cables plugged in on the left side (temp is 56). Switching those to the right plugs didn't impact the fans. The physical temp of the keyboard still gets warm, as does the area above the touchbar, but seems less hot than the others.

With Zoom off, Radeon High Side bounces between 8-10W, CPU temp at 63, fans at 1.8k.

Firing up Ableton Live, Radeon High Side, temp, fans are acting similar to when I had Zoom going.
View attachment 932227
I'll be curious if things go lower once I install TBP, though at these levels I may not need to use it as I have yet to hear the fans from my sitting distance (barely audible when I put my ear up next to it).
It’s not a world difference than my 5500. The difference is there but I don’t know if it’s big. While working in illustrator, light AE animation project, listening to music with lid open and 18-19w I have 1,8k rpm to 3k+ rpm back and forth when working. I’m afraid 5600 overall might be just slightly or little better I think. The cpu is a heat generating monster IMO. People with 4-5k rpm all the time have the biggest problem.
 
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vocalnick

macrumors member
Jun 15, 2020
56
67
Again, not a proper fix, but enough that I can live with it and get my work done.

NB: I've edited this post - the original is below.

I got to an OK place with the heat/fan scenario using Turbo Boost Switcher, but was facing some weird crashes, wake from sleep issues etc. and in the heat of the moment I decided to draw a line, cut my losses, and just return it.

But then it was the weekend, and I couldn't drop it off until Monday, so I kept fiddling. And after a new install and a system transfer from an old image from my Mac Pro, it's humming along really nicely. I can't make it crash.

So I figure I'll keep running it until the day before the return deadline, then make that final call.

Original post below:
=============

Ok, the laptop goes back today.

I was ready to live with the cooling workarounds, but now I've been wrestling with issues waking from sleep, crashes etc. I already have Power Nap deactivated.

I understand there are workarounds and fixes for this issue here and there, but this is a brand new almost $5K (Aus) laptop. Enough is enough.

I'll limp along with my old one for a little bit longer and consider my options.

What a disappointment.
 
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ateslik

macrumors 6502
Oct 18, 2008
357
472
My 5600M is here. The comparison with the 13" 2020 4-port follows.

13" in clamshell not busy (7.7W total, 137F, 0rpm):
Clamshell_13_Busy_Screen Shot 2020-07-02 at 6.32.03 AM.png


5600M clamshell not busy (19.7W, 133F, 1800rpm):
Clamshell_16_Idle_Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 2.52.44 PM.png

so lower running temp than the not busy 13", but not by much. However, as I'm typing this the 5600M is now even cooler: 14.7W, 117F. I can't hear it running.

Now for open lid.

13" Open Lid not busy (13.9W, 143F, 1300rpm):
LidOpen_13_Idle_Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 3.15.24 PM.png


5600M Open Lid not busy (27.6W, 133F, 1800rpm):
LidOpen_16_Idle_Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 2.38.48 PM.png

Radeon High Side is pretty low out of the box. No tweaks. That fan speed and temp is nice. I was in the 150's and 5000rpm open lid on the 5500M, so this is an improvement.

5600M Open Lid busy (57.4W, 166F, 4700rpm):
LidOpen_16_Busy_Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 2.27.07 PM.png

Another later zoom today was 147F and 32W, no slack running.

My conclusion is that I was hoping for lower idle wattage on the 5600M in general. I was expecting clamshell 12-14W, but it seems that 15-24W is the range it works in during normal use - lite browsing etc - during clamshell. When there is little changing on the screen it's closer to the 15W side.

Even though the wattage it higher than I expected it's really running cool. I never saw mid 120's on the 13" even. I'm not doing anything special for cooling.

I really like that it doesn't go ballistic in either open lid or clamshell. I also turned Power Nap back on and everything just works, right out of the box. So, I think this is my machine. It's noticeably snappier than the 13", not that the 13 was too slow, but once I get to rendering I'll really appreciate this extra boost.
 
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Norbert Mikołajczyk

macrumors regular
May 26, 2016
233
67
My 5600M is here. The comparison with the 13" 2020 4-port follows.

13" in clamshell not busy (7.7W total, 137F, 0rpm):
View attachment 932332

5600M clamshell not busy (19.7W, 133F, 1800rpm):
View attachment 932333
so lower running temp than the not busy 13", but not by much. However, as I'm typing this the 5600M is now even cooler: 14.7W, 117F. I can't hear it running.

Now for open lid.

13" Open Lid not busy (13.9W, 143F, 1300rpm):
View attachment 932342

5600M Open Lid not busy (27.6W, 133F, 1800rpm): View attachment 932344
Radeon High Side is pretty low out of the box. No tweaks. That fan speed and temp is nice. I was in the 150's and 5000rpm open lid on the 5500M, so this is an improvement.

5600M Open Lid busy (57.4W, 166F, 4700rpm): View attachment 932345
Another later zoom today was 147F and 32W, no slack running.

My conclusion is that I was hoping for lower idle wattage on the 5600M in general. I was expecting clamshell 12-14W, but it seems that 15-24W is the range it works in during normal use - lite browsing etc - during clamshell. When there is little changing on the screen it's closer to the 15W side.

Even though the wattage it higher than I expected it's really running cool. I never saw mid 120's on the 13" even. I'm not doing anything special for cooling.

I really like that it doesn't go ballistic in either open lid or clamshell. I also turned Power Nap back on and everything just works, right out of the box. So, I think this is my machine. It's noticeably snappier than the 13", not that the 13 was too slow, but once I get to rendering I'll really appreciate this extra boost.
Nice, what's your room temperature? Mine is around 25C.
Here is my idle 5500 i9 2.4ghz with open lid.
5500-lid-open-idle.png
 
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Minga089

macrumors member
Jun 26, 2020
79
52
München, Bayern
Nice, what's your room temperature? Mine is around 25C.
Here is my idle 5500 i9 2.4ghz with open lid.
View attachment 932443
Looks exactly like mine. I have the 5300m and I can live with 60C and fan speeds of 2000 rpm at idle. Sure Radeon High Side is ridiculous but I surely will not give Apple another 1000 EUR of my money for the 5600m because a) I don't need that power and b) I won't reward them for the design fail with the 5300/5500m.

For other people with much higher temperatures and fan speeds it might make sense but for me definitely not as my machine is quiet and runs only 5C hotter at idle than the 5600m with open lid.
 
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Norbert Mikołajczyk

macrumors regular
May 26, 2016
233
67
Looks exactly like mine. I have the 5300m and I can live with 60C and fan speeds of 2000 rpm at idle. Sure Radeon High Side is ridiculous but I surely will not give Apple another 1000 EUR of my money for the 5600m because a) I don't need that power and b) I won't reward them for the design fail with the 5300/5500m.

For other people with much higher temperatures and fan speeds it might make sense but for me definitely not as my machine is quiet and runs only 5C hotter at idle than the 5600m with open lid.
Yeah, exactly my thoughts. For us it's not worth it, for others with constant 4-5k rpms maybe.
In the end it could be a driver issues and there could be more here like intel cpu binning. I read that the newest, the same model of intel cpus can run at different temps, the differences are as high as 10C. So it could be a driver bug, not optimal chipset by amd, not sufficient/bad quality thermal paste, a cpu lottery or everything from the list...
 
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Norbert Mikołajczyk

macrumors regular
May 26, 2016
233
67
I think there is something seriously wrong with drivers or Catalina.
Today I tried different usb-c cable from moshi just for fun.
But now when I'm back to the old cable, the old SwitchResX custom resolution CVT-RB v2 doesn't work anymore in the clamshell mode!
It previously gave me awesome temperatures but now it's not working, so I needed to try different custom resolution, now it's GTF. Something is seriously wrong with Catalina :/
 
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ateslik

macrumors 6502
Oct 18, 2008
357
472
Nice, what's your room temperature? Mine is around 25C.
Here is my idle 5500 i9 2.4ghz with open lid.

My room temp is 25.5C/78F.

My screenshots above we're done after unboxing and migrating, so SSD was a little hot at 102F. This morning, after a good night sleep for the laptop, SSD is 93F. System temps started at 103F, 14-17W, 1800rpm from wake, and while writing this in clamshell have slowly climbed up to 113-115F, 15W, 1800rpm and hovering around there. Just Safari running on the box with 16 tabs.
 
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randomshelf11

macrumors newbie
Dec 31, 2019
9
2
Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether this is a software issue (that can be fixed by a software update) or a hardware issue (in which case this thread should perhaps have the subheading "abandon hope all ye who enter here")?
 
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Norbert Mikołajczyk

macrumors regular
May 26, 2016
233
67
Do a SMC-Reset and try it again.
Smc nvram reset don’t work. The new cable somehow corrupted my hardware/smc/thunderbolt. I have done clean install. Nothing helps. I’m unable to use my last working custom resolution 🤣 Seriously guys, this will be my last Apple laptop...
 
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