Except that the issue is also caused by dust particles, which are everywhere, Bubbleboy.
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2018 MacBook Pro Has 'Quieter' Keyboard, But Unclear if Sticky and Unresponsive Key Issues Addressed
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Except that the issue is also caused by dust particles, which are everywhere, Bubbleboy.
All I know is that I'm staying in the "wait and see" mode for now before replacing my 2010 MBP. I've had money in the bank for a new MBP since 2016 and it will stay there until I see a few months runtime on this new model by others without continued keyboard failure complaints.
"The wise king waits to feast until the servants first sample the food."
"The wise king waits to feast until the servants first sample the food."
Remember the free bumpers for the iPhone 4? Remember how many people in the tech press bought into the idea that the antenna design was flawed? It didn't turn out to be accurate. Apple didn't make a mistake with the antenna design. They made a mistake in how they displayed signal strength. Attenuating the phone with your hand so that it dropped the signal to "zero bars" was only really possible if the signal was weak to begin with.
So Apple does have a history of providing customers with a freebie sometimes when it's not actually necessary. It's a way of defusing the internet and media echo chamber.
Except this article from CNet says otherwise:
https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-mac...te-new-intel-chips-more-ram-true-tone-screen/
"But if you were waiting for a keyboard fix to tackle the issue some users have of dust or debris causing keys to stick, you're out of luck. Apple says this keyboard update has no new engineering or tweaks to address that issue, currently the subject of both multiple lawsuits and a new Apple repair program."
Unfortunately seems Apple is convinced that denial is a river in Africa.
The Verge said:
I will give them the smallest amount of credit for coming clean and admitting it. But that is massively outweighed by the fact they still haven't addressed this huge design flaw which artificially limits the lifespan of an otherwise perfectly functional product. From an environmental perspective it is negligent as well.
The problem is the chances of experiencing the issue is increased by length of ownership and duration of daily usage. It's just odds—the more you have that case open the more likely a spec of dust might get stuck under a key. That means the people who rely on their computers for work everyday (many of whom are professionals who have been with the platform for a long time and are very loyal to Apple) have the odds stacked against them. So it may only be a tiny fraction of the user base, but it is a hugely significant and important fraction for mind share.
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If the keyboard repair was in-and-out the same day, and if the out of warranty repair was $150-$200, this design idiocy wouldn't be such a huge deal...and it takes a great deal of brouhaha for Apple to institute a warranty extension.
Apple has the statistics on the keyboard. However minute the problem, the keyboard failure rate is significant enough to force the Apple Elephant, hugely monolithic, into a publicly humiliating warranty extension.
Kudos to the new specs.
Apple has the statistics on the keyboard. However minute the problem, the keyboard failure rate is significant enough to force the Apple Elephant, hugely monolithic, into a publicly humiliating warranty extension.
Kudos to the new specs.
I think it's important to keep in mind that this is a pro machine, and pro customers are rightly skeptical about the reliability of the keyboard.
Imagine marketing a new model of delivery truck to customers.
"It's faster, smaller, and more efficient, but occasionally, the steering wheel stops working and it needs to be in the shop for a few days."
"Uhhhh, no thanks. I'll take last year's model, please."
Imagine marketing a new model of delivery truck to customers.
"It's faster, smaller, and more efficient, but occasionally, the steering wheel stops working and it needs to be in the shop for a few days."
"Uhhhh, no thanks. I'll take last year's model, please."
Do an internet search for "stuck key Dell" or "sticky key Lenovo" or "key not working HP" and see what you come up with. There is no keyboard design for laptops that prevents the possibility of that happening. I've experienced scissor design keyboards from Apple getting stuck keys or non-functional keys both at work and at home for iMacs and Mac Pros.
It really isn't even a QC issue. It's a design philosophy issue. It's the fetishizing of THIN over any other possible feature in a Pro laptop. Sadly, that seems to include compromising the reliability and comfort of the the KB.
The team was told to make the Pro laptops even thinner that the already thin 2012-2015 models, and this KB design, along with soldered components and adhesives, was needed to accomplish that.
Apple could go back to the 2012-15 case design, or even the 2012-non-retina case design, with the KB designs used then, and the issues would be solved today. Both reliability and comfort.
But... THIN!
Sigh.
100% agree. The origin of lots of problem is the obssesion with ever thinner products.
I would buy a 2012-non-retina-case design with modern guts in a heartbeat.
Yes, that is correct--other laptops can and may be plagued with similar issues, but your example is an apples-to-oranges comparison (no pun intended). The problem here is that we're talking about a $2000+ computer that can't be disassembled and/or modified by the end user to fix the problem, and if they decide to go the "legit" route and take it to an Apple Store, it can be a whole week before the computer is repaired. If you're paying that much (or more, as noted in another article here today) for a computer, that's ENTIRELY unacceptable, and people have a right to complain.
Scissor keyboards are much easier to fix. And if you had a Macbook Pro that is pre-retina, you could replace the keyboard without replacing the entire top case. If Apple would just use screws to hold on the keyboard and battery, I'd be much more willing to give them my money for this. But it makes me nervous to think that a computer that I will spend a significant amount of money on is practically disposable. I wouldn't have bought my current retina (early 2013) right now if it hadn't been $200. For $200, if it needs a major repair in a year or two, it isn't as bad. I can just junk it or attempt to repair it. But a computer that is gonna be $3500 (for the configuration I would like), having to replace half of the computer because of a battery issue or a keyboard issue is asinine. The thing that irritates me is that PC laptops still seem to suck just enough to keep me from switching. Will be interesting to see the iFixit teardown to see if these are any more repairable (probably not).
All true, I've recently replaced the entire keyboard unit on my Thinkpad T series, it didn't originally come with back lighting, it cost $40 and took around 5 minutes to swap the entire keyboard unit.
The issue here is the design and manufacturing philosophy which makes an in-house Apple repair a major time consuming and expensive operation. We're long past the point of Apple producing 'Pro' devices which are customer serviceable. They've turned thinness into a fetish to the point of not being able to easily service their own devices.
There's clearly also a willful attempt to produce sealed unserviceable devices, soldered SSD and RAM, glued and riveted components. It's all part of the disposable, limited lifespan, buy a new one if it breaks philosophy.
Bear in mind the MBP keyboard is riveted in place.
I still like the old MacBooks that had the keyboard that could be unclipped with your fingers and pulled off.
it won't be more repairable, but that teardown will provide answers regarding the keyboard mechanism.
No computer is perfect, I was trying out the Razer Blade a few weeks ago and ended up returning it because I was hoping Apple would roll something out.
With the Razer (and Dell), I have an upgradeable computer that has superior components. Superior in terms of faster GPU, replaceable ram, storage and battery. With the Razer the trackpad wasn't as good as apple's, the keyboard had a non-standard layout (cursor keys and they moved the ? key). The issue for me was the lack of back lighting for the secondary values for the f-keys and number keys, i.e., & was not backlight and on dimly lit rooms finding which number key is needed for $ or # was frustrating.
So the question comes down to a Razer, or Dell that provides replaceable parts, or a sealed computer but better integration if you're already invested in the apple ecosystem.
I recently returned my Mac to repair the keyboard and it was replaced according to the program. Funny thing: I had cleaned my computer and even vacuumed it (I know I shouldn't, but it still functioned afterwards), so to avoid being accused of having caused the problem. At the desk, they turned around the computer and again it was full of dust.
So yeah, it's a dust magnet, the dust can get in but not out - that's the design error. If the new keys last another 18 months, then I have half the lifespan of my previous MBP, so that will probably be it. All in all, I am happy with the customer service though: they also replaced the screen that had some minor issue and the USB-C ports that were loose. Well appreciated.
The new Macbook Pro is probably the worst-ever Apple product, but it's still a great laptop. Awaiting the repair, I was working with a brand new, top-end business Dell Latitude, and it simply still doesn't work: bad screen, useless trackpad, numerous crashes, ...
So yeah, it's a dust magnet, the dust can get in but not out - that's the design error. If the new keys last another 18 months, then I have half the lifespan of my previous MBP, so that will probably be it. All in all, I am happy with the customer service though: they also replaced the screen that had some minor issue and the USB-C ports that were loose. Well appreciated.
The new Macbook Pro is probably the worst-ever Apple product, but it's still a great laptop. Awaiting the repair, I was working with a brand new, top-end business Dell Latitude, and it simply still doesn't work: bad screen, useless trackpad, numerous crashes, ...
There's also the Thinkpads. They are generally very upgradeable and pretty well built. But pretty much any Thinkpad will feel like a downgrade screen-wise. I wish Apple would do a "Classic Macbook Pro" with the non-retina chassis, but with better hardware and the same modular design as before. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
Depends on the model, they still make better keyboards.
Lenovo does make good laptops, but I'm just not partial to them, maybe its because I used to use IBM thinkpads for years, I don't know but its not something I consider.
I love the look of the Razer, but its not perfect, as I think about the Razer and MBP, one thing I wonder about is cooling for the MBP, the hex core processor runs hot. With the razer they have a vapor chamber and it works well. The MBP with such a tiny enclosure may have trouble with cooling
Seems like whoever makes the displays for Lenovo has quality control issues. I'll read about backlight bleed in r/Thinkpad. But there is a part of me that wants to get a T480 instead of a newer Macbook Pro just to see if I'd be happy with the experience. What I will probably end up doing is getting a T470 used for cheap and upgrade it. Maybe I'll be happier with the touchpad and screen more than I think I will.
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Yea cooling is probably gonna be an issue. Thankfully, you can use iStat Menus or MacsFanControl to keep the fans full blast during processor/GPU-intensive tasks.
I am on my second replacement keyboard in the last 8 months. And it would have been less than 8 months had Apple not replaced it free start a few weeks ago.
Even worse: we are without our computer for 5 days - from the time it is shipped off for repaid 'til it is Fedexed back to us.
I am a diehard Apple fan. I will go down with Apple like the Hindenburg before I would consider another computer company. But honestly, this keyboard is absolute crap. It is an embarrassment. My 15-year old, dust-ridden... $45 Macally keyword still works great. And TONS of people at the Genius bar were complaining about their sticky keyboards when I was there 2 weeks ago.
The worst part: I am toting around a Bluetooth external keyboard because I know my newly replaced laptop keyboard will crap out in a few months. That is PATHETIC.
Where is the evidence this is a design issue vs a malfunctioning part? Nobody but Apple knows. The only thing we can assume is it’s not in Apple’s interest to sell products with hardware they know is going to fail. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that it was a design issue, from a legal standpoint admitting that would cause all sorts of trouble.
Exactly how many different issues could you have with a keyboard? Replacing the entire keyboard isn't an issue; it's the solution to an issue.
Apple even outlines the issues that would warrant replacement here.
https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/
- Letters or characters repeat unexpectedly
- Letters or characters do not appear
- Key(s) feel "sticky" or do not respond in a consistent manner
And is this program for ANY Apple keyboard or only butterfly keyboards? If it's the latter, then why isn't this program being offered on other keyboards? Maybe because there isn't an issue with them?
Rewriting history huh? The issue was caused by bridging the antenna gap, not from they way they displayed signal strength. Phones were being dropping calls, not just displaying signal strength improperly.
Directly from Apple:
"If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band."