2018 MacBook Pro Has 'Quieter' Keyboard, But Unclear if Sticky and Unresponsive Key Issues Addressed

[Webster's Mac]

Where is the evidence this is a design issue vs a malfunctioning part? Nobody but Apple knows. The only thing we can assume is it’s not in Apple’s interest to sell products with hardware they know is going to fail. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that it was a design issue, from a legal standpoint admitting that would cause all sorts of trouble.

A defective part is generally something that happens on a very, very, very tiny percentage of a product (like 0.05%). A design flaw is when you have lots of people experiencing the *same* issue. The Macbook Pro clearly has a design flaw. If you look at the keyboard torn down, you will see that everything is so thin and fragile that it makes sense that these would break.
[doublepost=1531424171][/doublepost]Also, Apple doesn't launch replacement programs for defective products. Those are handled during warranty. A replacement program is launched when there is a design flaw (ie 2011 Macbook Pro GPUs, iPhone 5 batteries, etc)

 

[lec0rsaire]

Except that the issue is also caused by dust particles, which are everywhere, Bubbleboy.

I live in NYC with a ton of dust and after 18 months, my keyboard is as good as new. Now I do have the sticky keys problem in the center of the keyboard whenever the CPU-GPU is working hard. It was present from the moment I unboxed it. I’ll probably take it in to see if a new top case sorts out that issue. As soon as the machine cools down, the keyboard goes right back to normal.

 

[Webster's Mac]

I live in NYC with a ton of dust and after 18 months, my keyboard is as good as new. Now I do have the sticky keys problem in the center of the keyboard whenever the CPU-GPU is working hard. I’ll probably take it in to see if a new top case sorts out that issue. As soon as the machine cools down, the keyboard goes right back to normal.

I'd ask them to clean the fans and replace the thermal paste while they're in there, just to make sure it runs as cool as possible. I'd say to do that yourself, but there is value in warranties, and I don't want you voiding your warranty for a "what if" situation.

 

[vipergts2207]

Where is the evidence this is a design issue vs a malfunctioning part? Nobody but Apple knows. The only thing we can assume is it’s not in Apple’s interest to sell products with hardware they know is going to fail. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that it was a design issue, from a legal standpoint admitting that would cause all sorts of trouble.

Congrats, you just figured out why Apple wouldn't want to admit that they have a design issue with the keyboard...

And if it was something as simple as a single part, do you not think Apple would have fixed it by now? That would seem to imply that Apple doesn't care about their customers having issues with parts they know are faulty in their products. Let's not forget the 2016 MBPs launched almost 2 years ago. It's not like this issue just popped up last week. In all likelihood, it was probably a design flaw that may have been fixed in this third-gen keyboard.

 

[Rogifan]

still huge bezels for such a laptop in 2018.

Surface Go says hi!

 

[parsonsmike]

Don't be a slob around your $2000 device and it shouldn't be an issue.

It's absolutely gross how people treat their digital devices. "I'm gonna take this phone in the bathroom, touch it after touching the toilet seat or lid which gets toilet water splashed on it every time it's flushed then sits in a humid environment where germs multiply, play on this phone then put it in my pocket when I'm done, where it's also warm and the germs multiply further, then stick that phone against my face and mouth when it rings."

I never had food or drink within 3 feet of my 2016 mbp, and the keyboard still died 3 times.

But go ahead and make assumptions about people, it's cool.

 

[groove-agent]

Clearly you haven't been following all the threads on the issue. Lots of people experience problems and don't eat around their laptops. There is evidence to support that DUST will cause key failure.

Maybe do some research first before accusing people of being slobs.

Don't be a slob around your $2000 device and it shouldn't be an issue.

It's absolutely gross how people treat their digital devices. "I'm gonna take this phone in the bathroom, touch it after touching the toilet seat or lid which gets toilet water splashed on it every time it's flushed then sits in a humid environment where germs multiply, play on this phone then put it in my pocket when I'm done, where it's also warm and the germs multiply further, then stick that phone against my face and mouth when it rings."

 

[lec0rsaire]

I'd ask them to clean the fans and replace the thermal paste while they're in there, just to make sure it runs as cool as possible. I'd say to do that yourself, but there is value in warranties, and I don't want you voiding your warranty for a "what if" situation.

I have AppleCare until 12/20. Thanks for the recommendation! It’s really just in the center keys. It feels like they could break or snap off from the “stickiness.” That would never happen of course. Just doesn’t feel normal. Otherwise really happy with everything else.

 

[parsonsmike]

I went from a 2016 TouchBar MBP with HORRIBLE keyboard issues to a 2017 Model with 0 issues so far. I think the "fix" they made for the keyboards breaking was implemented in the 2017 model with the "nub" added under the keys.

Not zero issues. my 2016 killed 3 keyboards, and the third, which died just as quickly as the first two, was an updated 2017 model. It was just as awful to type on as the 2016, too.

 

[pat500000]

It’s pretty quiet because there is no more keyboard as a next feature.

 

[sracer]

And why would anyone think it’s in Apple’s interest to sell computers with faulty keyboards? All it does is make more work for Apple in having to do repairs/replacements and make it more likely for someone to not upgrade or worse switch to Windows. None of that is good for Apple in the long run.

Apple doesn't deliberately make faulty keyboards to put in their computers, but they DO engage in risk management. They design something that serves their purpose but isn't quite up to spec. They release it anyways taking a calculated risk. They have all of the financial figures with regard to cost of repair/replacement vs. a more expensive design.

They have determined it is more financially feasible for them to release a sub-par product and deal with the fallout rather than increase the cost of a product with a higher quality design. It's not like the failure rate out-the-gate is 100%. It might approach 100% over the long haul.

They know their customer base is fiercely loyal. They factor that into the equation. For all of the legitimate issues with iMacs, Macbooks, Macbook Pros, etc. customer who experience those issues continue to purchase Apple products. So what incentive does Apple have to do anything differently?

It would be fiscally unwise of Apple to increase costs (and increase prices or decrease profit) to improve things that ultimately don't matter to customers. These issues really don't matter to their customers. Apple's bottom line is not affected by these issues, and won't be.

 

[FrozenDarkness]

i'm honestly surprised apple couldn't think of a better way to admit that this new keyboard is more robust while denying that it didn't affect a lot of users. it's not that hard.

"We made this keyboard more robust and more resistant to elements. Even though the number of people with keyboard defects remains extremely small, we saw fit to make our keyboards more robust."

 

[groove-agent]

Incorrect. There has been a study done to show that the keyboards fail twice as often as a 2015 MBP (can't remember who it was - obviously NOT Apple as they want to cover it up). Whether or not that constitutes a design fail is debatable. However, I wonder if the study takes in account that 2015s have been out for longer than 2016/2017 (more chance of failure) which could underestimate the failure rate.

I really need to keep links of all the articles supporting that there is a problem with the keyboards as some people are just in denial that it exists.

FYI: all of the complaints about the keyboard online and in the lawsuits are anecdotal. Nobody has provided actual numbers that would prove that there's some sort of widespread mechanical problem. Apple's own repair program is completely generic and applies to pretty much any type of keyboard problem, minor or major. I think the tech media needs to drop the huffing/puffing about this issue for the time being and wait for some actual numbers. No doubt Apple could provide them for the discovery portion of a lawsuit.

 

[bjjp2]

Quieter keys is welcome if true. Find the current one really noisy to the point where I am reluctant to use it during certain meetings.

 

[69Mustang]

Surface Go says hi!

Ha! An actual laptop say Hi. As much as I like MBP's, the poster is right. The bezels on Apple laptops are outdated. Using the tablet as an example of a laptop is sort of disingenuous.

 

[groove-agent]

They don't want to openly admit there is a problem.

I hope that the class action lawsuits will disclose actual numbers not subjective comments from Apple such as "relatively small".

If they really did not focus on making the keyboard more reliable and immune to keys sticking or not registering, then they completely missed the elephant in the room.

While reducing noise is good, having a keyboard that does not require sending the unit in for 1-2 week repair is key (pub intended).

 

[corebeliefs]

The post was about being a slob. He has a point. Start treating your devices with care and not like a $30 Xbox controller.
[doublepost=1531419995][/doublepost]
actually that gives me more confidence that they fixed the issue.

There have been many users here describing being completely careful with their laptops that still gave stuck keys. Great generalization though. Xbox, lulz.

 

[Rogifan]

A defective part is generally something that happens on a very, very, very tiny percentage of a product (like 0.05%). A design flaw is when you have lots of people experiencing the *same* issue. The Macbook Pro clearly has a design flaw. If you look at the keyboard torn down, you will see that everything is so thin and fragile that it makes sense that these would break.
[doublepost=1531424171][/doublepost]Also, Apple doesn't launch replacement programs for defective products. Those are handled during warranty. A replacement program is launched when there is a design flaw (ie 2011 Macbook Pro GPUs, iPhone 5 batteries, etc)

John Gruber said he heard there was an issue with one of the metal parts that wasn’t up to spec. Sounded like an issue with the type of metal being used in the part. Of course he couldn’t confirm it was true but considering there doesn’t seem to be a major redesign of the butterfly mechanism (and it certainly hasn’t gotten thicker) it seems more likely it’s not the butterfly mechanism itself. People can hate on Apple all they want but it does the company no good to sell a product with a part they know is faulty. At the same time from a legal standpoint I can understand why Apple wouldn’t say ‘yeah the previous keyboards were defective but they’re not now’. That would open them up to more lawsuits and calls for product recalls.

 

[Webster's Mac]

There have been many users here describing being completely careful with their laptops that still gave stuck keys. Great generalization though. Xbox, lulz.

Exactly. Why design a keyboard that has to be babied. A pro grade laptop should be able to take some abuse. Now, I'm not someone who goes trashing their Macbook Pro. You can practically run over a Thinkpad with your car but a Macbook pro can't even handle dust?

The Macbook Pro is more expensive than the Thinkpad. There is no excuse for this keyboard. None. I used to make excuses for Apple all the time, but those days are over. They are a nearly $1 trillion company and they can't invest enough R&D to design a keyboard that will hold up over time? Give me a break.

 

[Rogifan]

Congrats, you just figured out why Apple wouldn't want to admit that they have a design issue with the keyboard...

And if it was something as simple as a single part, do you not think Apple would have fixed it by now? That would seem to imply that Apple doesn't care about their customers having issues with parts they know are faulty in their products. Let's not forget the 2016 MBPs launched almost 2 years ago. It's not like this issue just popped up last week. In all likelihood, it was probably a design flaw that may have been fixed in this third-gen keyboard.

How do we know they haven’t fixed it? Do you have the stats on how many people are experiencing this issue and when they purchased their laptop?

 

[groove-agent]

This is why I chose to buy a refurbed 2015 instead of waiting for the 2018. It's going to take about a year to disclose whether or not the keyboard has been fixed.

We'd like to thank in advance all the folks who bought the 2018 and gambled several thousands of dollars to let us know if the keyboard has been fixed.

Not true in every case though, I had brought one to replace an older MacBook Pro.

But as outlined here these new models are not included in the service programme and there is no guarantee the issue has been addressed so therefore cannot purchase with any confidence.

View attachment 770326

[doublepost=1531426120][/doublepost]Want to gamble that $4000 and put your money where your mouth is? Feel free to order one and let us know how it goes.

The post was about being a slob. He has a point. Start treating your devices with care and not like a $30 Xbox controller.
[doublepost=1531419995][/doublepost]
actually that gives me more confidence that they fixed the issue.

 

[shansoft]

Ha! An actual laptop say Hi. As much as I like MBP's, the poster is right. The bezels on Apple laptops are outdated. Using the tablet as an example of a laptop is sort of disingenuous.

Come with free unlimited cloud storage as well !!

Except only Chinese government can access it.

 

[Rogifan]

Ha! An actual laptop say Hi. As much as I like MBP's, the poster is right. The bezels on Apple laptops are outdated. Using the tablet as an example of a laptop is sort of disingenuous.

Personally I think laptops with next to zero bezel are ugly. And believe me if the new iPad Apple released earlier this year had bezels the size of the Surface Go a lot of people here would have been complaining. What is the point of next to no bezels on a laptop other than aesthetics? It’s not like you’re getting a ton of more real estate and in many cases the OEM had to compromise on placement of the front facing camera to accommodate.

 

[elppa]

It really isn't even a QC issue. It's a design philosophy issue. It's the fetishizing of THIN over any other possible feature in a Pro laptop. Sadly, that seems to include compromising the reliability and comfort of the the KB.

The team was told to make the Pro laptops even thinner that the already thin 2012-2015 models, and this KB design, along with soldered components and adhesives, was needed to accomplish that.

Apple could go back to the 2012-15 case design, or even the 2012-non-retina case design, with the KB designs used then, and the issues would be solved today. Both reliability and comfort.

But... THIN!

Sigh.

I agree and think they should look at materials (and weight) as we've gone beyond diminishing returns with thickness (i.e. the computer is now becoming worse to be thinner, whereas earlier revisions reduced thickness and either got better or maintained parity with the previous version).

I don't understand the continued obsession with aluminium and think they should look at carbon and other composites. The argument I have heard is environmental — these materials cannot be recycled and reused like aluminium — but what is also bad for the environment is an impossible to service design which necessitates an entire top case replacement just because a single spec of dust is stuck under the keyboard.

I think the environment argument is weak as there are natural fibre composites like flax and plenty of room to explore, research and innovate. The other advantage (aside from obvious huge reduction in weight) is it would allow for some really nice options around case design and finishes, because you can sculpt carbon into pretty much any shape and paint it how you choose, whereas aluminium is pretty hard to shape and finish nicely.

Anyway the point is there are plenty of areas to explore to increase overall portability without so many compromises and the relentless pursuit of thinness.

It’s not like you’re getting a ton of more real estate and in many cases the OEM had to compromise on placement of the front facing camera to accommodate.

Fully agreed I am not too fussed about the bezels because there is only one sensible place to put a webcam and despite the idiocy of Dell/Huawei Apple put it in the right place in 2006 (when they first started embedding webcams) and continue to get right. They could add a notch (and unfortunately with today's Apple I wouldn't rule it out) but that would be monumentally stupid.

Far rather they tackle the weight and case design (as above) than bezels. Huawei placing highest priority on bezel thickness above all other concerns is just as stupid as Apple placing highest priority on case thickness above all other concerns.

 

[Rogifan]

Exactly. Why design a keyboard that has to be babied. A pro grade laptop should be able to take some abuse. Now, I'm not someone who goes trashing their Macbook Pro. You can practically run over a Thinkpad with your car but a Macbook pro can't even handle dust?

The Macbook Pro is more expensive than the Thinkpad. There is no excuse for this keyboard. None. I used to make excuses for Apple all the time, but those days are over. They are a nearly $1 trillion company and they can't invest enough R&D to design a keyboard that will hold up over time? Give me a break.

Let’s see how these new laptops fare. Neither you nor I have used one so we can’t comment on their reliability.
[doublepost=1531426384][/doublepost]

I agree and think they should look at materials (and weight) as we've gone beyond diminishing returns with thickness (i.e. the computer is now becoming worse to be thinner, whereas earlier revisions reduced thickness and either got better or maintained parity with the previous version).

I don't understand the continued obsession with aluminium and think they should look at carbon and other composites. The argument I have heard is environmental — these materials cannot be recycled and reused like aluminium — but what is also bad for the environment is an impossible to service design which necessitates an entire top case replacement just because a single spec of dust is stuck under the keyboard.

I think the environment argument is weak as there are natural fibre composites like flax and plenty of room to explore, research and innovate. The other advantage (aside from obvious huge reduction in weight) is it would allow for some really nice options around case design and finishes, because you can sculpt carbon into pretty much any shape and paint it how you choose, whereas Aluminium is pretty hard to shape and finish nicely.

Anyway the point is there are plenty of areas to explore to increase overall portability without so many compromises and the relentless pursuit of thinness.

There are laptops thinner than the MBP.