Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The quote above also included 3 year warranty for the X1 Extreme, so have to factor that in.

Sidenote: sweet spot for me is 14 inch laptops. 13 is too small, 15 is too big to travel comfortable imo. With the way bezels on laptops are getting smaller, I think 14 and 16 inch laptops should become the standard. I wonder if Apple would ever switch to these sizes.

I like the 14” inch as well, I tried to downsize to the 13” a few years back and found it a bit too small, but 14” seems a good balance.

Now if Apple could shrink down the bezels and get a 15” display into a 14” chassis, similar to how Asus packaged a 17” nonoedge display into a 15” chassis with the StudioBook S, that would be better still.
 
So, as an everyday laptop that would be of interest to typical college students, I think a good comparison would be the Surface Laptop 2 $999 (i5 8th gen, 8GB, 128GB SSD) and the 2018 MacBook Air $1,199 (i5 8th gen Y, 8GB, 128GB SSD). I picked the typical college student because they are a good demographic of folks that need a reliable everyday computer at a fair price. I used the retail prices because there are always special deals at big box stores, so trying to compare sale prices would be complicated. For example, B&H had the MBA on sale for $999 during the holidays, but I am sure the Surface laptop 2 was also on sale.....so, let's just look at MSRP to keep it simple.

Anyway, I can see the pros and cons of either device. Normally, I would go with the MBA because I am comfortable with MacOS and I am invested in the Apple ecosystem. If I was a Windows user, I would probably stick with the Surface Laptop 2. Frankly, $200 price difference over 5-6 years of ownership would not be a factor in my decision. What would be a factor is reliability. If I thought one of these devices had serious reliability issues, that would be a show stopper. Unfortunately, I am beginning to think that this butterfly keyboard failure issue is the achilles heel of Apple laptops......it might just do them in.

This fall our youngest is going to University and he needs a new computer. In the past, we bought MBA for our college kids because they are reliable as hell. But, I just can't see sending him with a keyboard that would likely fail at a critical time........papers, online testing, notes, whatever. Apple has to fix this or they can just forget about the laptop market.

Now, I don't know a damn think about Surface Laptops, so please enlighten me if there are serious reliability issues with these devices. I honestly want to know.

Advantages 2018 MBA: 1.) Battery Life, 2.) Track Pad, 3.) MacOS, 4.) USBC-T3 Ports
Advantages Surface Laptop2: 1.) Faster Processor, 2.) Keyboard, 3.) Touch Screen, 4.) Price

Did I missing anything?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OdT22
Now, I don't know a damn think about Surface Laptops, so please enlighten me if there are serious reliability issues with these devices. I honestly want to know.

I can't speak for the Surface Laptop. There may be some folks in the Alternative section with better knowledge of them. I have had a Surface Pro 5 (2017) that has been great so far. I kind of use it and abuse it, throw it in the car door well, throw it in my motorcycle panniers, ride off-road with it, bounce it around, camp with it, etc. It has been exposed to dust, ashes, light rain, etc. and hasn't been a problem so far. Of course with the Surface Pro if the keyboard fails, buy a new cover. I did get it with the Surface Complete for Business 4-year Warranty and Accidental Damage Coverage.

Microsoft has had some past reliability issues and at one time was on Consumer Reports "not recommended list" as a result, but they seem to have righted the ship the past couple of years. Still working on regaining trust though I think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OdT22 and Queen6
I'm on UltraFine 4K 16:9 and I miss the taller screen of the MacBook. 3:2 seems amazing. I don't know what 16:9 is good for really
Aside from movies, I like it when I'm working in Office tools. I can put 2 windows side-by-side on a 16:9 27" screen and they're still full size. Add a good laptop screen and I have 3 points of information with just one external screen.
Also, when processing 4:3 photos, the photo can be larger because the sidebars go into the wider areas both left and right.
 
Aside from movies, I like it when I'm working in Office tools. I can put 2 windows side-by-side on a 16:9 27" screen and they're still full size. Add a good laptop screen and I have 3 points of information with just one external screen.
Also, when processing 4:3 photos, the photo can be larger because the sidebars go into the wider areas both left and right.
But. 16:10 would only be taller :) you could still do all these things
 
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6 and c0ppo
Bottom line is Apple is pricing itself out the market for average consumers, has only weak offerings for many professionals & organisations needs. Smart shopping can reveal excellent Windows OEM portables at reasonable prices, however not with Apple, as for the most part it's full price or nothing, especially outside the US.

The fallacy that all Windows based notebooks are junk is just that, there are many affordable portables that offer reasonable specifications, good build quality, others, above all value that exceeds Apple. Windows notebooks can range from $200 to well past $15K dependant on the users need and budget.

Apple chose to; use sub par less reliable keyboards, kill any possible upgrade path, design is products to be as expensive as possible to repair IMO to near enforce replacement, removed ports that many require on a daily basis, make a business out of selling dongles while many include in the box, foisted features that are questionable such as the Touch Bar & T2, disregarded it's professional community and plays stupid when challenged unless Apple definitively knows it will loose in a court of law...

IMHO the current design of Apple's portables serves Apple far more than it's customers, small wonder that so few professionals remain on the platform. Couple of years back just 15% I'll bet that's yet another metric Apple wont be releasing, by my own observations it will be a good deal less in 2019. Over 20 years with the Mac, today Apple does not produce a single computer I would consider to offer value or assures reliability.

The reason such posts, sub forums (Alternatives to Mac hardware) exist and the exodus of many long-term professional Mac users firmly lies with Apple nobody else...


Q-6
 
Surface Laptop 2 $999

The issue with this one is that it's effectively a throw away device. If it breaks out of it's 1 year warranty it goes in the bin. There is no way into the device for repairs without destroying the keyboard cover and it cannot be replaced.
 
Apple chose to; use sub par less reliable keyboards, kill any possible upgrade path, design is products to be as expensive as possible to repair IMO to near enforce replacement, removed ports that many require on a daily basis, make a business out of selling dongles while many include in the box, foisted features that are questionable such as the Touch Bar & T2, disregarded it's professional community and plays stupid when challenged unless Apple definitively knows it will loose in a court of law...

Best paragraph in this entire thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Never mind
  • Like
Reactions: lnikj and LeeW
  • Like
Reactions: Ploki
In the past, we bought MBA for our college kids because they are reliable as hell. But, I just can't see sending him with a keyboard that would likely fail at a critical time........

It's only the 2015-2017 MBs/MBPs that are really affected by Keyboardgate, though, right? The 2018 models (including the new MBA) have the redesigned keyboard with the protective membrane?
 
It's only the 2015-2017 models that are really affected by Keyboardgate, though, right? The 2018 models (including the new MBA) have the redesigned keyboard with the protective membrane?
Nope, people are posting about the failures of the 2018 models. A page or two up, there's a couple of youtube videos showing the MBA keyboard not working. There are people complaining and providing youtube videos in the butterfly keyboard thread about their 2018 MBAs failing.

That was the primary reason why I opted to sell my MBP, I felt it was a ticking time bomb and I was better off selling now and avoiding the problem

Edit: Slight correction, the butterfly keyboard was introduced in 2016, the 2015 model is the last with a traditional keyboard
 
Last edited:
It's only the 2015-2017 MBs/MBPs that are really affected by Keyboardgate, though, right? The 2018 models (including the new MBA) have the redesigned keyboard with the protective membrane?
my returned i9 had a randomly doublestroking "i" especially in combination with spacebar
 
That was the primary reason why I opted to sell my MBP, I felt it was a ticking time bomb and I was better off selling now and avoiding the problem

Yeah, my 2017 MBP has a couple of "gummy" keys. It's certainly frustrating, but I take comfort in the fact that there's a repair programme that allows me to get it fixed whenever. I'll take it in at some point.

Hopefully Apple does realise that crap like this is slowly damaging the brand. It's the sort of thing that probably wouldn't have happened in the Jobs days. With Johnny in charge of design, I feel like aesthetics and "purity" of design have gained the upper hand over robustness and usability.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mendota
I really dislike the "it wouldn't have happened in Jobs days" like Jobs was perfect and somehow didn't have failures or failed products on him. If not anything else, the 2011 GPU failures (I know more people with failed 2011 GPUs than 2016-2018 people with failed keyboards) are an indicator of it.

They offered a repair program in 2015, years after people struggled with useless laptops.

They crammed 2x more cores with higher TDP into the same enclosure on the model that GPUs failed the most, partly due to overheating.

Thinking of it, wonder how 560x/vega20 will fare in the long run in the 15" 2018-much-hotter-than-2017 laptops.
 
Yeah, my 2017 MBP has a couple of "gummy" keys. It's certainly frustrating, but I take comfort in the fact that there's a repair programme that allows me to get it fixed whenever. I'll take it in at some point.
I didn't want to deal with the repair program. I remember the 2011 dGPU repair program which replaced the non-functioning dgpu with another another defective dgpu. The keyboard design is flawed and I'd rather not keep sending it in. Plus its my goal to keep the laptop > 4 years and if the keyboard breaks after the 4 year window, I'm SOL
 
I believe MS has a fixed price replacement scheme similar to the Surface Pro line.

Q-6

That they do. I mean first of all get Microsoft Complete, it costs $149 and provides 2 years of extended coverage including accidental damage (they have business plans that extend out to 4) and you can use one of the 2 accidental damage claims to replace your machine with new (second will be refurbished).

Out of warranty replacement costs are in some cases lower than Apple co-pays even if you *do* have Apple Care.

upload_2019-1-22_6-3-51.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mendota and Queen6
Value? Probably the MacBook Pro even though it is light on RAM and SSD compared to the Dell. I don't think I would ever pay that much for a PC though. Part of the allure of a PC is price, and to me you would be crazy to pay that much for a Dell. Now, the thing is Dell almost never sells their stuff at full price, so likely you could get that XPS15 below $2000. At that point it becomes a much tougher call. Equal price? I will take the MacBook Pro. Actual street price (which is less for both of them honestly) the Dell probably wins out since it will likely be a few hundred cheaper. As always it comes down to how much macOS is worth to a person. Considering that the XPS15 has its own reliability complaints, I would probably have to save a lot in order to pick it over the Mac.


"Light" on RAM and SSD? Wow!! . I understand the preference thing and understandable if it was 16 vs 20 GB.. but that is just plain wrong when you describe the difference between 32 and 16 GB RAM & and 1TB vs 256 GB SSD as "light".

Yes. Traditionally, it is true that MBPs retain their higher value. However that will most likely change soon since
1) Apple is pricing themselves out of market,
2) soldering everything is not adding value because you have to effectively replace the whole internals which is very costly out of warranty.
3) keyboard issues and extremely high repair costs. $700 keyboard replacement. There will be a point where people just won't be able to afford it. This is the one that scared me the most. 3K laptop + tax + AC+ and then 3 years down the road, just throw away all that investment because I cannot afford $700 keyboard repair.
4) Not to mention, nobody is able to sell the parts for Apple computers so there is only one stop shop for repairs.


Also agreed, that all manufacturers are going to have issues and Dell is no different but from what I have researched so far, it is very easy to do the repairs yourself which I have done so far on all my other laptops and desktops.

I reiterate. I love MacOS and I loved my 2014 MBPs but at the cost they are charging now... NAAAH!!! I don't love it that much and can live without it.

Ubuntu is my new "love of work life" :D in OS. and I can live with Win10 for basic browsing and other stuff.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So, as an everyday laptop that would be of interest to typical college students, I think a good comparison would be the Surface Laptop 2 $999 (i5 8th gen, 8GB, 128GB SSD) and the 2018 MacBook Air $1,199 (i5 8th gen Y, 8GB, 128GB SSD). I picked the typical college student because they are a good demographic of folks that need a reliable everyday computer at a fair price. I used the retail prices because there are always special deals at big box stores, so trying to compare sale prices would be complicated. For example, B&H had the MBA on sale for $999 during the holidays, but I am sure the Surface laptop 2 was also on sale.....so, let's just look at MSRP to keep it simple.

Anyway, I can see the pros and cons of either device. Normally, I would go with the MBA because I am comfortable with MacOS and I am invested in the Apple ecosystem. If I was a Windows user, I would probably stick with the Surface Laptop 2. Frankly, $200 price difference over 5-6 years of ownership would not be a factor in my decision. What would be a factor is reliability. If I thought one of these devices had serious reliability issues, that would be a show stopper. Unfortunately, I am beginning to think that this butterfly keyboard failure issue is the achilles heel of Apple laptops......it might just do them in.

This fall our youngest is going to University and he needs a new computer. In the past, we bought MBA for our college kids because they are reliable as hell. But, I just can't see sending him with a keyboard that would likely fail at a critical time........papers, online testing, notes, whatever. Apple has to fix this or they can just forget about the laptop market.

Now, I don't know a damn think about Surface Laptops, so please enlighten me if there are serious reliability issues with these devices. I honestly want to know.

Advantages 2018 MBA: 1.) Battery Life, 2.) Track Pad, 3.) MacOS, 4.) USBC-T3 Ports
Advantages Surface Laptop2: 1.) Faster Processor, 2.) Keyboard, 3.) Touch Screen, 4.) Price

Did I missing anything?

Yes, college students are a fair usage case. Much the same needs as a small business owner or most other general users. My son and I are those people, respectively. Neither of us know too much about our devices, but we get along fine using them daily.

I had sent him off to college with my last MBP. I detailed this story a little further, a few months ago in the Alternatives to Mac subforum here. In the end, he ended up needing a Windows Machine as he got further in to his field of study, due some specific software needs (forestry degree). So I traded him my (fairly new) Surface Pro for the old 2015 MBP that we have both got quite a few miles out of. That was a few months ago. Neither of us care much about which OS we're using, and he has had no problems with the SP5 to date. (honor roll student, FWIW)

The older MBP was heavier and bulkier than I desired for my current uses, (though it ran like a top), which left me deciding between the two newer machines you accurately compared above. The prices were right for me, and I have had great experiences with the older MBAs. The new MBAs were right on time, along with the new SL2 too.

Reviews were mixed, everywhere I could find them. Lots of fearmongering over the keboards, T2chip crashes, and lack of brightness on the MBA2 display. And conversely, while there wasn't much negative being said about the MS SL2, there wasn't much of ANYTHING being said about the SL2 at all. It certainly hasn't won any popularity contests. Little good press, but almost zero bad press either.

The Best Buy SL2 sale at the time included a 256 SSD for the $999 price, rather than the current 128 SSD. That size wasn't important to me, but it was still an incentive for resale value if things didn't work out.

In the end, the idea of doing the guinea pig thing for Apple with regards to the keyboard and T2 chip, wasn't an inspiration. So I chose the SL2.

So far, I've been 100% satisfied with the choice, except for the trackpad. It works okay, but not nearly as well as Apple laptop trackpads do.

2 glitches in as many months; The Windows Hello feature has stopped working twice, requiring me to enter my 4 digit pin to log in. Twice in hundreds of logins isn't much, but it is still odd. Rebooting fixes the problem.

All else has been smooth and trouble free.

That said, the MBA2 pre-troubles also seem to be overly exaggerated today. In hindsight, I likely would have been just as happy with it, albeit with a slightly lighter wallet.

Overall, I'd still buy the SL2 again. Great portable personal computer. I find myself using it more often than any laptop I've owned, (rather than waiting to use a desktop, or using a smartphone for similar tasks). The last question for me is longevity, which is a long ways from being determined yet. So far, it has been a peach.
 
Last edited:
how does apple get away with this?
(spoken as a person who just bought two Macs. sigh)
As long as Apple makes a profit, what motivation is there for change? I've largely given up on them for computers, though I still have an iMac. Apple has seemingly out priced themselves on the phones. I'm not sure I can justify another iPhone, but I'm not prepared to give up on that.
 
As long as Apple makes a profit, what motivation is there for change? I've largely given up on them for computers, though I still have an iMac. Apple has seemingly out priced themselves on the phones. I'm not sure I can justify another iPhone, but I'm not prepared to give up on that.
Well, let's not kid ourselves, majority of Apple's revenue is now on services and mobile, despite the fact that they grew on the creative professional market.
Losing that market won't do them any harm unfortunately.

It's really a crappy situation. Logic Pro X update is due (10.5 probably), I'm eager to see how much thought they gave it.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.