Anyone else abandoning ship?

[Never mind]

I just spec’d out a Lenovo X1 Extreme (Good 33% sale) and MacBook pro and the MacBook was over $1,500 more expensive. In my opinion that would be a no brainer to pick this Lenovo over an MacBook. Would that entice you to think about a move?

Mine was $2,188 and the MacBook Pro 15inch was around $4,000

View attachment 816842

Not including AppleCare nor taxes below. One above is from the Apple Sales site. Still way too much and was enough for me to jump ship for the Lenovo system.

 

[maflynn]

Well, let's not kid ourselves, majority of Apple's revenue is now on services and mobile, despite the fact that they grew on the creative professional market.
Losing that market won't do them any harm unfortunately.

No question, but if Apple saw a significant decrease in sales for Macs, they would move to rectify the situation, and that was my point

 

[Ploki]

No question, but if Apple saw a significant decrease in sales for Macs, they would move to rectify the situation, and that was my point

Kinda like they did for the Mac Pro?

 

[maflynn]

Kinda like they did for the Mac Pro?

They have let too many models whither on the vine. The mini, the MBA, and the Mac Pro. I guess that flies in the face of my argument

 

[Queen6]

They have let too many models whither on the vine. The mini, the MBA, and the Mac Pro. I guess that flies in the face of my argument

Time will tell, Apple's hardly doing a stellar job with the Mac as it stands, nor do I think the board & shareholders will be overly happy with Tim & Co if they flush a successful business because they cant get it right, or just don't want to. Time to forget about the colour of doorknobs in the spaceship and start thinking about the customers needs again.

Personally I think Apple needs to do what Microsoft did, inject new blood into the system. People with a real passion & conviction for the Mac. People can criticise Microsoft all they want, equally Surface isn't Microsoft's core business yet this team is pushing hard to achieve, bring new and innovative products to market, most of all at least they are trying...

Q-6

 

[Cashmonee]

"Light" on RAM and SSD? Wow!! . I understand the preference thing and understandable if it was 16 vs 20 GB.. but that is just plain wrong when you describe the difference between 32 and 16 GB RAM & and 1TB vs 256 GB SSD as "light".

Yes. Traditionally, it is true that MBPs retain their higher value. However that will most likely change soon since
1) Apple is pricing themselves out of market,
2) soldering everything is not adding value because you have to effectively replace the whole internals which is very costly out of warranty.
3) keyboard issues and extremely high repair costs. $700 keyboard replacement. There will be a point where people just won't be able to afford it. This is the one that scared me the most. 3K laptop + tax + AC+ and then 3 years down the road, just throw away all that investment because I cannot afford $700 keyboard repair.
4) Not to mention, nobody is able to sell the parts for Apple computers so there is only one stop shop for repairs.


Also agreed, that all manufacturers are going to have issues and Dell is no different but from what I have researched so far, it is very easy to do the repairs yourself which I have done so far on all my other laptops and desktops.

I reiterate. I love MacOS and I loved my 2014 MBPs but at the cost they are charging now... NAAAH!!! I don't love it that much and can live without it.

Ubuntu is my new "love of work life" in OS. and I can live with Win10 for basic browsing and other stuff.

I am confused. Did you mean to quote me? What you quoted makes no sense in regards to your post.
[doublepost=1548180410][/doublepost]

Time will tell, Apple's hardly doing a stellar job with the Mac as it stands, nor do I think the board & shareholders will be overly happy with Tim & Co if they flush a successful business because they cant get it right, or just don't want to. Time to forget about the colour of doorknobs in the spaceship and start thinking about the customers needs again.

Personally I think Apple needs to do what Microsoft did, inject new blood into the system. People with a real passion & conviction for the Mac. People can criticise Microsoft all they want, equally Surface isn't Microsoft's core business yet this team is pushing hard to achieve, bring new and innovative products to market, most of all at least they are trying...

Q-6

To be fair, the Microsoft Surface line is really just a proof of concept. They are not trying to get into the hardware business, rather they are trying to help OEMs make decent machines. They only way to do that at the time was to scare them into it by showing what was possible if Microsoft did it themselves. Surface has really helped lead the growth in the quality of the type of machine PC OEMs are putting out. Surface is to Microsoft what Pixel is to Google. A proof of concept to guide OEMs and push them to build better devices for the system that Microsoft or Google are creating. Both of those companies don't care who sells you the hardware. They need you to get into their ecosystem.

As far as Microsoft's turn around, I would not look to that in hopes of reviving Macs. Microsoft's turnaround is due to them pivoting away from their core business. They see that OS's, particularly desktop OS's do not have a future as far as being a profit center goes. They have moved away from Windows into a more services oriented company. The Apple equivalent would be to move even further away from the Mac and also away from hardware in general. They are doing this by the way. They are pumping up the success of their services at every earnings call and have shown that is the future. It is the reason they are not reporting sales numbers anymore. They do not see that as a relevant metric for how the company is doing, and frankly, it isn't.

 

[idonthatethemac]

I am confused. Did you mean to quote me? What you quoted makes no sense in regards to your post.

yes.. because we were arguing about "value" of mac/pc. whats the confusion about?

 

[jerryk]

To be fair, the Microsoft Surface line is really just a proof of concept. They are not trying to get into the hardware business, rather they are trying to help OEMs make decent machines. They only way to do that at the time was to scare them into it by showing what was possible if Microsoft did it themselves. Surface has really helped lead the growth in the quality of the type of machine PC OEMs are putting out. Surface is to Microsoft what Pixel is to Google. A proof of concept to guide OEMs and push them to build better devices for the system that Microsoft or Google are creating. Both of those companies don't care who sells you the hardware. They need you to get into their ecosystem.

As far as Microsoft's turn around, I would not look to that in hopes of reviving Macs. Microsoft's turnaround is due to them pivoting away from their core business. They see that OS's, particularly desktop OS's do not have a future as far as being a profit center goes. They have moved away from Windows into a more services oriented company. The Apple equivalent would be to move even further away from the Mac and also away from hardware in general. They are doing this by the way. They are pumping up the success of their services at every earnings call and have shown that is the future. It is the reason they are not reporting sales numbers anymore. They do not see that as a relevant metric for how the company is doing, and frankly, it isn't.

Very well said.

I remains to be seen if Apple can make the change. Consumer products are quite different from core business products. And business are the reason Microsoft has sold over 160 million licenses for Office 365. And each license brings new money into the company each month. Similarly Microsoft's cloud, Azure, is now catching up with Amazon's AWS Cloud. And virtually all of Amazon's operating revenue comes from AWS, not from selling things online.

Microsoft knows the days of where computer OSes matter is waning and has focused on services and subscription software.

Google sees this also and is spending a lot to push their prowess in AI and ML. See this video so see how far they have gone. http://bit.ly/2duplex

Apple needs to do what it can to change it's course. I think their new focus on healthcare may be how they create a new business segment for the company.

 

[LeeW]

Google sees this also and is spending a lot to push their prowess in AI and ML. See this video so see how far they have gone. http://bit.ly/2duplex

One of the best things about Google is also one of the worst for many. Their data harvesting methods not only make money but it pushes areas like AI and ML forward at pace.
[doublepost=1548192669][/doublepost]When I purchased my new Mac Mini, which I am very happy with btw, I sold my MBP, it was an expensive clamshell that spent all of its time on the desk and no time mobile (too much hassle to unplug it all).

The idea was to find a more cost friendly device for more general use that will always be with me. I was edging towards the Asus Zenbook, love the small form. But then I had the new MBA in the basket ready for checkout.

Then... I saw https://www.macrumors.com/2019/01/22/macbook-pro-flexgate/ and was like ffs...

 

[Cashmonee]

yes.. because we were arguing about "value" of mac/pc. whats the confusion about?

But I did not say anything about a Mac being a better value that I recall. I did say that I would not pay $2500 for a Dell. I also said nothing about the SSD or RAM being "light." So I am confused. The quote you made of me had absolutely nothing to do with what you said...
[doublepost=1548193366][/doublepost]

One of the best things about Google is also one of the worst for many. Their data harvesting methods not only make money but it pushes areas like AI and ML forward at pace.
[doublepost=1548192669][/doublepost]When I purchased my new Mac Mini, which I am very happy with btw, I sold my MBP, it was an expensive clamshell that spent all of its time on the desk and no time mobile (too much hassle to unplug it all).

The idea was to find a more cost friendly device for more general use that will always be with me. I was edging towards the Asus Zenbook, love the small form. But then I had the new MBA in the basket ready for checkout.

Then... I saw https://www.macrumors.com/2019/01/22/macbook-pro-flexgate/ and was like ffs...

I will say, one thing I really like about the TB3 MacBook Pros is the ease of docking. It is a single plug. Perfect.

Hopefully the flexing is something that is not common.

 

[LeeW]

Hopefully the flexing is something that is not common.

Hopefully not, but if it is only now emerging as an issue then I do wonder how many more are going to be affected, not trying to scaremonger or bash Apple more but of course people open and close devices at different rates.

Actually having looked a bit more it's not such a new issue, just getting reported more. I do remember seeing the stage lighting effect some time ago on some devices, the cause is as interesting as it is concerning.

The only sure fire way to keep your MacBook in tip-top condition? Don't use the keyboard and don't open and close it

 

[richinaus]

Very well said.

I remains to be seen if Apple can make the change. Consumer products are quite different from core business products. And business are the reason Microsoft has sold over 160 million licenses for Office 365. And each license brings new money into the company each month. Similarly Microsoft's cloud, Azure, is now catching up with Amazon's AWS Cloud. And virtually all of Amazon's operating revenue comes from AWS, not from selling things online.

Microsoft knows the days of where computer OSes matter is waning and has focused on services and subscription software.

Google sees this also and is spending a lot to push their prowess in AI and ML. See this video so see how far they have gone. http://bit.ly/2duplex

Apple needs to do what it can to change it's course. I think their new focus on healthcare may be how they create a new business segment for the company.

Apple already pivoted a while ago, and have been quite clear about it, and moved towards a consumer orientated service based company, which also happens to make computers.

I am unsure though why people think Apple are doomed if they dont make ‘better’ or cheaper hardware. The pricing is fine for me and I do see the value add, although as mentioned earlier Lenovo are very competitive indeed [if you can get past the black and red teenage boys colour scheme and super dated logos on the Thinkpads.]. The latest Yoga [930?] is a very nice computer indeed, but at the same time it is still no MBP 13” and at full price is not far off it.

 

[LeeW]

Lenovo are very competitive indeed [if you can get past the black and red teenage boys colour scheme and super dated logos on the Thinkpads.].

lol, priorities.

 

[jinnyman]

I'd be ok with Apple tax if what they offer is also superior in spec. Nowadays, Apple offers things at higher price but the performance and spec wise is much inferior.

It's kinda funny. Apple seems to promote casual computing yet increasing price with lower quality design and spec (lower quality design meaning design decision resulting in poor reliability). Ok. If Apple want to promote casual computing, then bring out casual computers. Not insanely expensive computers at higher price with less functionality. Don't play us with ram upgrade and ssd upgrade.

 

[Martius]

I'd be ok with Apple tax if what they offer is also superior in spec. Nowadays, Apple offers things at higher price but the performance and spec wise is much inferior.

It's kinda funny. Apple seems to promote casual computing yet increasing price with lower quality design and spec (lower quality design meaning design decision resulting in poor reliability). Ok. If Apple want to promote casual computing, then bring out casual computers. Not insanely expensive computers at higher price with less functionality. Don't play us with ram upgrade and ssd upgrade.

Well, I don't even expect some superior specs. I would be ok with everything Apple did to Mac in recent years (even with the soldered RAM, SSD etc., touchbar, ports) if they produce a reliable machines. That is the key thing for me.

What I expect when I pay so much extra money is a perfect product without any flaws, manufacturing defects or any variations in terms of who produced that particular LCD (you know what I mean - that LG vs Samsung thing). I just want to get a new laptop and have no problems with it. And if there is a slight problem which was clearly not caused by me, I want to get an immediate replacement.

I live in Europe (CZ), so we get 2 years warranty, but for that kind of money, I think the warranty should be at least 3-4 years without Apple Care (I don't even have a chance to buy Apple Care in Czech republic, only some 3rd party services).

 

[Ploki]

Apple already pivoted a while ago, and have been quite clear about it, and moved towards a consumer orientated service based company, which also happens to make computers.

I am unsure though why people think Apple are doomed if they dont make ‘better’ or cheaper hardware. The pricing is fine for me and I do see the value add, although as mentioned earlier Lenovo are very competitive indeed [if you can get past the black and red teenage boys colour scheme and super dated logos on the Thinkpads.]. The latest Yoga [930?] is a very nice computer indeed, but at the same time it is still no MBP 13” and at full price is not far off it.

I like the thinkpads, really, they're the most iconic windows laptop, very much like the MacBooks. If they ran macOS I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

What I expect when I pay so much extra money is a perfect product without any flaws, manufacturing defects or any variations in terms of who produced that particular LCD (you know what I mean - that LG vs Samsung thing). I just want to get a new laptop and have no problems with it. And if there is a slight problem which was clearly not caused by me, I want to get an immediate replacement.

Yeah, this is what the Apple Tax usually entailed.
The build consistency with 2018 machines is horrendous.

Side rubber light bleeds, coil whine - very inconsistent.

 

[Fuchal]

I like the thinkpads, really, they're the most iconic windows laptop, very much like the MacBooks. If they ran macOS I'd buy one in a heartbeat.


Yeah, this is what the Apple Tax usually entailed.
The build consistency with 2018 machines is horrendous.

Side rubber light bleeds, coil whine - very inconsistent.

True, when I think Apple Tax, I think of Steve Jobs introducing the Cinema Displays - "Our competitors buy the panels that we reject". Now, we're buying the same parts and panels as everyone else. There used to be differentiators - titanium and alu cases, IPS panels, retina displays, Magsafe, etc - but it's now been reduced to the point you'll find the same features on every comparable laptop.

 

[A_ardvark]

Does anyone have any recommendations about ways to sell a MacBook Pro. It's the July 2018 15 base model. It's both too much power and too little for my needs. Any windows stuff I want to run like GIS software is a hassle to install and maintain, otherwise I'm just typing a lot and I hardly need six cores for that. I bought into the apple hype and am kinda of regretting it.

 

[sunapple]

True, when I think Apple Tax, I think of Steve Jobs introducing the Cinema Displays - "Our competitors buy the panels that we reject". Now, we're buying the same parts and panels as everyone else. There used to be differentiators - titanium and alu cases, IPS panels, retina displays, Magsafe, etc - but it's now been reduced to the point you'll find the same features on every comparable laptop.

Don't forget Touch Bar, that amazing piece of innovation (sarcastic, obviously).

 

[jerryk]

Don't forget Touch Bar, that amazing piece of innovation (sarcastic, obviously).

Not Apple's first, and likely not their last, tech turkey. Anyone still have firewire interfaces. And I still use my plug in head phones on my waterproof S8.

 

[Ploki]

No Apple first, and likely not their last, tech turkey. Anyone still have firewire interfaces. And I still use my plug in head phones on my waterproof S8.

according to RME, people using Firewire interfaces are better off than those using USB on Mojave.

 

[nerowolfe19]

to me boils down to finding good 16:10 and macOS alternatives to transition away from Apple's ecosystem. 3:2 and some Linux flavors are viable options.

Recently reliability and design have been an issue. Warranting price premiums while gradually removing customers' agency e.g restricting personal data retrieval in case of logicboard malfunction & taking away ability to self-service or upgrade machines, having to seek Apple's stamp of approval online just so an OS is permitted to run on new models.

Yeah, don't care much for those practices. No amount of AppleCare makes up for lack of said basic rights.

 

[riptidewahoo]

So, I just picked up a 2018 13" MBP with TB for $1699 with education discount. However, I found this Dell laptop for $499 as a roughly equivalent alternative.

https://www.microcenter.com/product...6GB_Solid_State_Drive;_Intel_UHD_Graphics_620

Both have 8th gen Core i5 quad core CPU, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. Both are roughly the same size.

For a $1200 savings (!), the only major downgrades are obviously the OS change, a minor CPU speed loss (8250u vs 8259u in MBP), storage speed (SATA vs PCIe in MBP), 1080p IPS panel vs Retina Display, Touch Bar (useless for me) and battery life. I actually gain a ton of ports and a better keyboard.

I'm REALLY trying not to return the MBP... but this could push me over the edge.

(Mainly using for DJ performances, I have a PC desktop I built for everything else.)

 

[Cashmonee]

So, I just picked up a 2018 13" MBP with TB for $1699 with education discount. However, I found this Dell laptop for $499 as a roughly equivalent alternative.

https://www.microcenter.com/product...6GB_Solid_State_Drive;_Intel_UHD_Graphics_620

Both have 8th gen Core i5 quad core CPU, 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD. Both are roughly the same size.

For a $1200 savings (!), the only major downgrades are obviously the OS change, a minor CPU speed loss (8250u vs 8259u in MBP), storage speed (SATA vs PCIe in MBP), 1080p IPS panel vs Retina Display, Touch Bar (useless for me) and battery life. I actually gain a ton of ports and a better keyboard.

I'm REALLY trying not to return the MBP... but this could push me over the edge.

(Mainly using for DJ performances, I have a PC desktop I built for everything else.)

I know Geekbench is not the best, but it is about all we have for cross platform comparison. The i5-8250U is significantly slower than the i5-8259U. Don't let Intel's custom naming of the Apple CPU fool you. Also you are looking at significantly slower graphics. The two machines are not comparable, hence the large difference in price. The TB 13" is much quicker. Now, you may not need the speed, and in that case, I would definitely consider the Dell. Just don't think they are even close to comparable on speed. Here are some links:

i5-8250U GB (3596 Single 10914 Multi)
https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2056

i5-8259U GB (4519 Single 16577 Multi)
https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/432

And a comparison of the HD 620 vs Iris 655 (the 620 has about 50% of the performance)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Iris-...UHD-Graphics-630_8828_8098_8126.247598.0.html

Then of course the SSD in the Mac will outperform a SATA by a wide margin.

I think the post quoted is evidence of how hyperbolic this discussion has become.

 

[Queen6]

to me boils down to finding good 16:10 and macOS alternatives to transition away from Apple's ecosystem. 3:2 and some Linux flavors are viable options.

Recently reliability and design have been an issue. Warranting price premiums while gradually removing customers' agency e.g restricting personal data retrieval in case of logicboard malfunction & taking away ability to self-service or upgrade machines, having to seek Apple's stamp of approval online just so an OS is permitted to run on new models.

Yeah, don't care much for those practices. No amount of AppleCare makes up for lack of said basic rights.

ASUS Studiobook S 16:10 and great spec, seriously nice, easily puts the MBP to shame being a notebook actually designed for professional use...

Apple mounting the SSD directly on the Logic Board is a joke for a notebook aimed at professional use. Vast majority of my contracts and for that matter majority of companies have a level of data control. Handing over same data to Apple in the event of a failure is simply not going to happen, it's like they have no clue...

Q-6