Anyone else abandoning ship?

[Cashmonee]

ASUS Studiobook S 16:10 and great spec, seriously nice, easily puts the MBP to shame being a notebook actually designed for professional use...

Apple mounting the SSD directly on the Logic Board is a joke for a notebook aimed at professional use. Vast majority of my contracts and for that matter majority of companies have a level of data control. Handing over same data to Apple in the event of a failure is simply not to going to happen, it's like they have no clue...

Q-6

To be fair, that is a yet released computer that no one has tested yet. It also is a 17" machine that weighs 5.6 pounds with an FHD (1920x1200) screen and 6 hours of claimed battery life (so real world is likely less). The GPU is one that is getting pretty long in the tooth and has already been supplanted before this machine is even released (EDIT: My mistake. For some reason I though it had a 1050Ti. It actually has a workstation Quadro P3200 which is a much more befitting match). This does not really compete in the same space as a MacBook Pro to be honest.

I mean, yeah on paper it looks like an ok machine with a lot of drawbacks, but even still, its size, weight, and battery life kind of put it more on the fringe of the large gaming laptop/workstation realm. I do not really see these as competitive machines in the way the X1 Extreme, XPS 15 and 15" MacBook Pro are.

Honestly, if I were shopping for a Windows machine, I see no reason to choose this over an X1E or XPS 15 unless you need the Xeon, but even then there are better alternatives from Lenovo. EDIT: This seems geared as a workstation and not for consumers. So unless you need a workstation, there is little reason to choose it over a more consumer facing PC.

 

[SDColorado]

Vast majority of my contracts and for that matter majority of companies have a level of data control. Handing over same data to Apple in the event of a failure is simply not to going to happen, it's like they have no clue...

Q-6

I do wonder how some folks get around that. Lenovo their KYD “Keep Your Drive” which allows you to keep and maintain custody of your drive and data. With the MBP your shipping it all off to depot for a couple weeks repair and you aren’t getting that drive with its data back. It isn’t a matter of backing up or not, it’s an issue that potentially sensitive data is out of your hands.

Probably not a problem for the vast majority, but it does seem like it could be a concern for some.

 

[Cashmonee]

I do wonder how some folks get around that. Lenovo their KYD “Keep Your Drive” which allows you to keep and maintain custody of your drive and data. With the MBP your shipping it all off to depot for a couple weeks repair and you aren’t getting that drive with its data back. It isn’t a matter of backing up or not, it’s an issue that potentially sensitive data is out of your hands.

Probably not a problem for the vast majority, but it does seem like it could be a concern for some.

I suspect they simply wipe the machine before they send it in. Most corporations that are serious about data surely have easily restored backups...

 

[SDColorado]

I suspect they simply wipe the machine before they send it in. Most corporations that are serious about data surely have easily restored backups...

Not easy to wipe it if the board failed or it won’t boot though. It isn’t an issue of backup or restoring, its an issue of custody

 

[Cashmonee]

Not easy to wipe it if the board failed or it won’t boot though. It isn’t an issue of backup or restoring, its an issue of custody

Good point. I am genuinely curious what the process is in that case. It would make sense that Apple would have some sort of protocol for their business accounts, though my understanding is that they have really pulled back on that. If there is not process, then yeah the Mac is not a good choice for that type of user.

 

[SDColorado]

Good point. I am genuinely curious what the process is in that case. It would make sense that Apple would have some sort of protocol for their business accounts, though my understanding is that they have really pulled back on that. If there is not process, then yeah the Mac is not a good choice for that type of user.

Probably not. I don’t fit into that category, but Q6 does and probably some government type jobs as well. For that matter I know my wife has to keep patient records on those encrypted drives with the passcodes.

But I suspect you’re right, companies that require custody to be retained, will also require the use of laptops with removable drives.

Part of that Lenovo KYD service is due to the fact that most warranty repairs state that the failed part becomes property of the manufacturer, whether that’s Apple, Lenovo, whomever. But with the KYD service, you always maintain custody. If the drive fails, they simply replace it and you figure out what to do with the failed one.

I think the only 100% guaranteed way to prevent data recovery on an SSD is to crush it, melt it or otherwise completely destroy it ? Is that right? I am pretty sure there is no guaranteed non-recoverable way to wipe it.

@Queen6 do you know? You have probably had to deal with this issue.

Edit: I forgot shredding

From Backblaze.com

Physically destroying the SSD by shredding it into small particles is the absolutely safest, most foolproof method for safe and secure disposal. Unfortunately, it’s also the most expensive.

Prices on devices designed for SSD shredding start in the thousands. This isn’t something to buy on a whim for home use.

 

[Cashmonee]

Probably not. I don’t fit into that category, but Q6 does and probably some government type jobs as well. For that matter I know my wife has to keep patient records on those encrypted drives with the passcodes.

But I suspect you’re right, companies that require custody to be retained, will also require the use of laptops with removable drives.

Part of that Lenovo KYD service is due to the fact that most warranty repairs state that the failed part becomes property of the manufacturer, whether that’s Apple, Lenovo, whomever. But with the KYD service, you always maintain custody. If the drive fails, they simply replace it and you figure out what to do with the failed one.

I think the only 100% guaranteed way to prevent data recovery on an SSD is to crush it, melt it or otherwise completely destroy it ? Is that right? I am pretty sure there is no guaranteed non-recoverable way to wipe it.

@Queen6 do you know? You have probably had to deal with this issue.

Edit: I forgot shredding

From Backblaze.com

Physically destroying the SSD by shredding it into small particles is the absolutely safest, most foolproof method for safe and secure disposal. Unfortunately, it’s also the most expensive.

Prices on devices designed for SSD shredding start in the thousands. This isn’t something to buy on a whim for home use.

Shredding?! I didn't even know that was possible!

It is definitely an interesting use case, and one I suspect Apple is not prepared for.

 

[Queen6]

I do wonder how some folks get around that. Lenovo their KYD “Keep Your Drive” which allows you to keep and maintain custody of your drive and data. With the MBP your shipping it all off to depot for a couple weeks repair and you aren’t getting that drive with its data back. It isn’t a matter of backing up or not, it’s an issue that potentially sensitive data is out of your hands.

Probably not a problem for the vast majority, but it does seem like it could be a concern for some.

Well when the notebook is designed sensibly you can easily remove the drives, wipe and reinstall for service simple as that. Many major multinationals retain drives well beyond the useful life of the notebook and physically destroy them. In the past I used to replace the drive (HDD) and destroy it before passing on the notebook.

These days I can do the same with M.2 drives, although I believe data recovery from SSD far more difficult versus a spinner. I would never pass a "loaded" drive to any third party, although unlikely the consequences of losing control of privileged data can/will be significant. Today in the event of SSD failure I'd physical destroy it, passing on a notebook I'd shred the drives with an encrypted algorithm as once all the cells are written to the data is gone.

MBP is designed to be a premium consumer notebook for Starbuck's warriors. The likes of the Studiobook S is designed for serious use, has performance, security, port solution that makes sense in the real-world, user removable/upgradable storage & RAM, 16:10 display and has a small footprint for a 17" I can even remove/upgrade the drive on my W10 tablet

Until Apple gets serious it's not worth entertaining. Current MBP is simply problematic at best and it's luck of the draw if you get a good one (your on the 4th/5th), looks great on the table mind Pro with Apple simply means a higher cost little else in 2019. Absolutely not acceptable for a notebook purporting to be a professional tool and costing $4,250 before tax, the has indeed fallen far from the tree, 35 years today what a disappointment...

Q-6

 

[PeterJP]

So, I just picked up a 2018 13" MBP with TB for $1699 with education discount. However, I found this Dell laptop for $499 as a roughly equivalent alternative

You really can't compare computers by comparing the components. I once bought a cheap Medion that had super specs on paper. It turned out the internals were configured in a completely crap way that limited the machine to office tasks. It was like a Ferrari engine, seats and wheels, tied together with rubber bands.

And those Dell Inspirons are cheap plastics. I just spent several months with a Latitude 7490 which is 3 times as expensive as the Inspiron you linked to. It was usable, but definitely not enjoyable.

Go ahead and try one if you like, but don't expect a Benz when you're paying Dacia prices.

Apple mounting the SSD directly on the Logic Board is a joke for a notebook aimed at professional use. Vast majority of my contracts and for that matter majority of companies have a level of data control. Handing over same data to Apple in the event of a failure is simply not going to happen, it's like they have no clue...

Doesn't encryption help then? You keep a backup of your data (I hope...), they get a drive they can't read. These days, I don't worry about physical drives at all anymore. I just don't want to lose the data.

 

[Queen6]

Doesn't encryption help then? You keep a backup of your data (I hope...), they get a drive they can't read. These days, I don't worry about physical drives at all anymore. I just don't want to lose the data.

It clearly does, equally if anyone can decrypt the contents of the drive it's likely to be Apple as they are the source of both hardware & OS. Irrespective of encryption many are bound to not pass drives with sensitive data to third parties. This is exactly why the likes of Lenovo offers the option to keep your own drive and many vendors conduct onsite service in the presence of company IT.

I have multiple backups even in the field, as failure can and does strike randomly regardless of brand. Those that don't and rely on their hardware for a living I have little sympathy for. My own data and licensed documentation by far exceeds the cost of any Mac Apple can produce, more importantly reputation & integrity so in short "just no"

Q-6

 

[LeeW]

I think the post quoted is evidence of how hyperbolic this discussion has become.

Perhaps, whist your comments are true of the performance difference, the Dell is still a significant saving on what he has and performance differences accounted for it may still be overpowered for this particular users needs.

Good comparison against that 1699 Mac? No.

 

[PeterJP]

Perhaps, whist your comments are true of the performance difference, the Dell is still a significant saving on what he has and performance differences accounted for it may still be overpowered for this particular users needs.

It's no comparison. Not in CPU performance, as shown. Not in SSD performance, as this machine apparently ships with a SATA SSD (though it can take NVMe...). Not in screens, as you get a 2MP 16:9 screen as compared to a 4MP 16:10 screen. Not in the touchpad, as it's not a Windows Precision touchpad (which is what you need if you actually want to use a touchpad under Windows... the rest is tiny and hardly works).

Let's just stop comparing MacBook Pros to machines a quarter of the price, shall we?

 

[LeeW]

Let's just stop comparing MacBook Pros to machines a quarter of the price, shall we?

Like I said, a good comparison? No, but for the person that suggested it, the Dell may be an alternative for them which delivers, perhaps even excessively for their needs. Let's stop dismissing the discussion of alternatives, shall we?

 

[Ploki]

The i5-8250U also only has 12 pcie lanes, being useless for the "don't forget" 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports.

You get 2 USB-A ports, 1 USB-C port and an HDMI port.
All of which I get via 1 satechi adapter while having a TB3 port free for my external NVMe drive and two ports free for whatever the hell i want to connect to it, example, Thunderbolt or Firewire interface.

It's an argument against MacBook being over-specced, not an argument against MacBooks being overpriced.

@LeeW while I agree the comparison is pointless. it's two different machines. Better comparison against the dell is the 2017 MBA.

 

[Woody135]

At any rate, anyone who thinks about dropping Apple in hopes to get a more reliable laptop is deluding themselves. The industry average for premium laptop failures within the first year is around 10%. It doesn't really matter which brand you buy. All laptops have systematic design weaknesses and are prone to this or that problem. You might get unlucky with your Apple purchase — or even multiple times so in a row if the store got a bad batch of machines — and then get lucky with the Lenovo or a Dell. Or your experience might be even worse. It all comes down to chance.

The reason why MBP is perceived as problematic is simply because of exposure. Apple draws a lot of attention and while their overall computer market share is not very high, the market share among premium models IS. Practically all laptops Apple sells are premium laptops and they grab a lion's share of Intel's high-end chips. There are many more MBP owners than Dell XPS owners, for example, and so the shier amount of people who experience a problem is higher.

I've been buying dozens of laptops — virtually all Macs — per year for our organisation for last 6+ years — and I have observed absolutely no decrease in reliability in 2016+ models. From approx. 20 2016/2017 models we own, only one had an issue with sticky keys (replaced by our service provider within 2 hours). None of the 2018 models have been crashing or showing any other problems, except one that was destroyed by a careless employee mere weeks after they have received it. Its a reliability history I'd take any time. In contrast, every single Lenovo and Dell we bough has suffered a catastrophic failure less than a year from purchase. The sample size is very small and its all anecdotal, but it does pain a picture which is consistent with general reliability surveys and reports.

[doublepost=1548321296][/doublepost]Thank goodness an impartial (hopefully) reply. I am just in the process of moving over from the infamous 2009 17" MBP and am suffering from the anxiety that the new MBPs appear to be generating. Great to look at but as fragile as a Ming milk jug......no good in the real world unless you just want to look at it !?

 

[richinaus]

[doublepost=1548321296][/doublepost]Thank goodness an impartial (hopefully) reply. I am just in the process of moving over from the infamous 2009 17" MBP and am suffering from the anxiety that the new MBPs appear to be generating. Great to look at but as fragile as a Ming milk jug......no good in the real world unless you just want to look at it !?

And I have had the exact same experience as Leman.
I already have made my decision after a lot of thought - I am sticking with Apple.

 

[Ploki]

[doublepost=1548321296][/doublepost]Thank goodness an impartial (hopefully) reply. I am just in the process of moving over from the infamous 2009 17" MBP and am suffering from the anxiety that the new MBPs appear to be generating. Great to look at but as fragile as a Ming milk jug......no good in the real world unless you just want to look at it !?

Meh, i know plenty of people that use it without any issues.

 

[soperrepos]

I jumped ship in 2012 and haven’t looked back. I spend almost half on capable hardware now - discrete Nvidia graphics running current drivers, diy upgradable memory and dual hard drives, and the ports, oh the ports - hdmi, fold out Ethernet, and multiple USB. I use an iPad Pro for illustration - but all my finishing work, rendering, and drafting is done in Windows. Adobe CC and Rhino 6 work without issue in Win 10. I have had 0 issues with viruses... common sense plus Windows Defender have been an effective combo.

I’ve had good experience with Lenovo and even Acer laptops. They don't meet the same level of build quality as Apple, but I’ve found that doesn’t matter when I can now afford to upgrade every 3-5 years. Plus my keyboards have never failed.

 

[PeterJP]

Like I said, a good comparison? No, but for the person that suggested it, the Dell may be an alternative for them which delivers, perhaps even excessively for their needs. Let's stop dismissing the discussion of alternatives, shall we?

Yeah, you're probably right. Many people could get by with a ChromeBook for €200, but there's the obvious allure of Apple. You're right that a serious downgrade in hardware for many people doesn't really make a difference.

 

[riptidewahoo]

The i5-8250U also only has 12 pcie lanes, being useless for the "don't forget" 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports.

You get 2 USB-A ports, 1 USB-C port and an HDMI port.
All of which I get via 1 satechi adapter while having a TB3 port free for my external NVMe drive and two ports free for whatever the hell i want to connect to it, example, Thunderbolt or Firewire interface.

It's an argument against MacBook being over-specced, not an argument against MacBooks being overpriced.

@LeeW while I agree the comparison is pointless. it's two different machines. Better comparison against the dell is the 2017 MBA.

I should have mentioned that the reason I picked that Mac is there is ONE specific piece of DJ software that is currently Mac-only (Djay Pro 2) that I could scrape by with Windows workarounds (the old version), but it just sucks that I feel pigeonholed into a pretty expensive Mac to use it properly. I know there are cheaper options than the $1699 MBP (such as the 2018 MBA or 2017 nTB) but the inferior display on the MBA and lack of ports on both are turn offs as a working DJ with stuff to connect. The processors are also slower than the Dell since they are both just dual-core.

Otherwise I think that Dell would totally be fine for my needs - which is why I even tried to compare them. Thanks for posting the specs behind the 8250u and 8259u, though. Seems about 25% slower overall but quite the premium $$ for that performance boost.

I think I'm staying with the Mac, just bitter that I'm SO close to saving over a grand.

 

[LeeW]

Yeah, you're probably right. Many people could get by with a ChromeBook for €200, but there's the obvious allure of Apple. You're right that a serious downgrade in hardware for many people doesn't really make a difference.

But... how many PC folks (beyond the most frugal or techphobic) would opt for a €200 Chromebook on the basis ' it's all they need' rather than 'what they want'? Probably about the same as Apple regulars saying they are leaving the MBP behind for a Dell XPS

I recall an almost heated argument with a friend after I paid $2.5k for an iMac a few years ago. What a mug I was, ripped off, an Apple sheep, paying for a badge, all the usual things. But like I said to him, it works perfectly, does everything I need, some things better than Windows. It never ran slow, never got choked up when a few apps were running and overall I was comfortable with my choice as it met my requirements fully. Sure it was not the very latest or fastest CPU and so on, but Macs don't need that to perform well for some like me at least.

He had built a general/gaming PC, it cost him $2.3k overall. Boasted about how much more powerful it was compared to my Mac. Had an i7, 32GB ram, 2TB of SSD drives, the best GPU for the time and so on. I asked him, based on his use;

Why do you need the most expensive i7? It is overpowered for your needs and does not add any value.
Why do you need 32GB ram? You will never even use 16GB, so what is the extra 16GB for?
Why do you need 2TB of SSD drives, again you will never use that, no more than 1TB.
Why choose that GPU? Cheaper ones would have still been more than sufficient?

So he paid at least $1k more than he needed for a machine so powerful it will never, ever hit the performance potential it has under his use. And it was nothing to do with future proofing, he just wanted the maddest, baddest machine he could build.

So who is the fool?

Me paying Apple $2.5k for less power than he has in his PC despite my Mac not needing any more.
Him for paying at least $1k more for a PC that has CPU power, Ram and SSD he will never use.

Maybe it was both of us. Or maybe we each simply purchased what we wanted

 

[Howard2k]

I know Geekbench is not the best, but it is about all we have for cross platform comparison. The i5-8250U is significantly slower than the i5-8259U. Don't let Intel's custom naming of the Apple CPU fool you. Also you are looking at significantly slower graphics. The two machines are not comparable, hence the large difference in price. The TB 13" is much quicker. Now, you may not need the speed, and in that case, I would definitely consider the Dell. Just don't think they are even close to comparable on speed. Here are some links:

i5-8250U GB (3596 Single 10914 Multi)
https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2056

i5-8259U GB (4519 Single 16577 Multi)
https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/432

And a comparison of the HD 620 vs Iris 655 (the 620 has about 50% of the performance)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Iris-...UHD-Graphics-630_8828_8098_8126.247598.0.html

Then of course the SSD in the Mac will outperform a SATA by a wide margin.

I think the post quoted is evidence of how hyperbolic this discussion has become.

Slower wifi too I would assume. Both are 802.11c, so if you're only surfing the net it won't be a big deal, but if you need to move files around using wifi then it'll be slower.
[doublepost=1548358241][/doublepost]

ASUS Studiobook S 16:10 and great spec, seriously nice, easily puts the MBP to shame being a notebook actually designed for professional use...

Apple mounting the SSD directly on the Logic Board is a joke for a notebook aimed at professional use. Vast majority of my contracts and for that matter majority of companies have a level of data control. Handing over same data to Apple in the event of a failure is simply not going to happen, it's like they have no clue...

Q-6

Has 802.11ax! (Wifi 6).

 

[riptidewahoo]

So I went ahead and picked up that $499 Dell just to see it and compare to the 2018 MBP.

It's actually aluminum and not plastic. The screen is pretty great for a glossy 1080p IPS - super bright. The speed feels great. I'm switching my DJ software to something else that works in Windows (Serato), so I think I just saved myself $1200. I could buy 2 more of these Dells if it breaks and still save money over the MBP!

I know it's kind of apples and oranges to some extent, but at least I'm happy now.

 

[LogicalApex]

Apple mounting the SSD directly on the Logic Board is a joke for a notebook aimed at professional use. Vast majority of my contracts and for that matter majority of companies have a level of data control. Handing over same data to Apple in the event of a failure is simply not going to happen, it's like they have no clue...

I wonder if this was part of their motivation with the T2, encryption at rest, and removal of the data access port in the 2018 models. As they are able to ensure these customers that Apple, nor anyone, has access to this data when accessing the drives.

I'd imagine for the most sensitive of customers they don't go through warranty repairs for almost anything and just handle it all in house via special contracts with Apple.

 

[PeterJP]

Me paying Apple $2.5k for less power than he has in his PC despite my Mac not needing any more.
Him for paying at least $1k more for a PC that has CPU power, Ram and SSD he will never use.

I love your anecdote! I know many people who overspec their PCs and still tinker and upgrade when they have it, only to replace it 2 years later or less. I guess it's called a hobby. I've built PCs myself and the temptation is always there. When I went self-employed, I got a macbook pro partly because it's tinkerless. Open, work, close. It's that simple. With Windows, I'm still not sure sleep mode is even going to work. I could tinker to make it work but... no thanks!

I once told somebody who had a huge, cheapish car (2 kids, *must*carry*everything*) that I would rather get a Volvo. "Oh, but they're expensive!" - Well, I can buy a Volvo for the same price as your huge one. It'll be smaller. Booth space is one parameter. Enjoying the car while you drive it is another. For those few occasions that I need to carry a big load, I can rent a van with the money I saved on fuel.

So I went ahead and picked up that $499 Dell just to see it and compare to the 2018 MBP.
(...)
I know it's kind of apples and oranges to some extent, but at least I'm happy now.

I'm actually happy you did it. If it works for you, it works. Sometimes, we have to leave our comfort zone and find that the rest of the world is actually quite good a place as well
Enjoy the machine!