Anyone else abandoning ship?

[09872738]

I was a longtime Windows user before migrating everything to the Apple ecosystem. I certainly don't think Apple is perfect, and there are many issues I'd like to see them address, but after some time back with Windows I'm reminded why I switched to Mac.

Think of it: we are discussing a market where the best argument FOR a system is the competitions shortcomings.

Boy, how I'd like to see a new competitor in the OS market....

New MacPro will be another locked down, locked in product (...)

If they really do that... the last remaining bit of hope is gone. And yet I'm still not certain to jump - coz the alternative is Windows, which I under no present circumstances would consider an improvement. Damn predicament

 

[Queen6]

Think of it: we are discussing a market where the best argument FOR a system is the competitions shortcomings.

Boy, how I'd like to see a new competitor in the OS market....



If they really do that... the last remaining bit of hope is gone. And yet I'm still not certain to jump - coz the alternative is Windows, which I under no present circumstances would consider an improvement. Damn predicament

I think most have already gone, while Apple has been busy blowing smoke up it's own arse. Locked in, locked out take your pick. I need to turn coin simple as that and I fully expect my hardware/software providers to be a factor of success not a hindrance. Apple has brought this on itself due to hubris and greed, now Apple can enjoy owing it...

A very clear and simple statement...

Q-6

 

[CE3]

Think of it: we are discussing a market where the best argument FOR a system is the competitions shortcomings.

Boy, how I'd like to see a new competitor in the OS market....



If they really do that... the last remaining bit of hope is gone. And yet I'm still not certain to jump - coz the alternative is Windows, which I under no present circumstances would consider an improvement. Damn predicament

You're right, we do need some more OS competition. I don't it's just the OS that makes a good case for Apple computers, though. Apple makes the hardware and the OS, so you get the benefit of really tight integration. MacBooks have great displays, excellent battery life, good speakers, good product support, etc.

I don't like that everything's glued down with MacBooks, and that the upgrade prices are ridiculous. But since we're looking at alternatives, the Surfacebook & and Surface Studio machines Microsoft makes are just as locked down for upgrades and even more ridiculously overpriced IMO.

 

[09872738]

Not that I disagree. That said, Windows is by no means any better. And let's not forget Microsofts obsession with data collection. Reading their EULA causes me to throw up and keeps me from considering their products.

I also consider macOS the by far less obtrusive operating system; it gets the crucial parts just right.

Literally all the issues I have with Apple and its products are - as @Queen6 stated - bad, bad executive decisions. Fixing those would be very easy - if only they wanted.
I agree with those who believe under Jobs' reign this would not have happened. Yes, he also made bad decisions. However, I really believe he cared about the products and had a desire for getting them right.
I see no such desire this days...

You're right, we do need some more OS competition. I don't it's just the OS that makes a good case for Apple computers, though. Apple makes the hardware and the OS, so you get the benefit of really tight integration. MacBooks have great displays, good speakers, good product support, etc.

I don't like that everything's glued down with MacBooks, and that the upgrade prices are ridiculous. But since we're looking at alternatives, the Surfacebook & and Surface Studio machines Microsoft makes are just as locked down for upgrades and even more ridiculously overpriced IMO.

I agree. Locked down OSses, data collection, etc. The duopoly clearly is no good for customers. The massive billions Apple/Microsoft make is no coincidence. BOTH companies massively overcharge customers for the lack of alternatives; those customers are: we all. And we are forced to pay because we don't have a choice really.

Which is why I'd like to see a fresh competitor. Think Linux, but less fragmented

 

[jerryk]

If they really do that... the last remaining bit of hope is gone. And yet I'm still not certain to jump - coz the alternative is Windows, which I under no present circumstances would consider an improvement. Damn predicament

Unix/Linux work for you? I spend as much of my day on Ubuntu or other distros as I do on MacOS.

 

[09872738]

Unix/Linux work for you? I spend as much of my day on Ubuntu or other distros as I do on MacOS.

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no.

E.g. there is no proper sync with iPhone/iPad. Also, even though the Plasma 5 desktop (Which is the only one I consider a full featured and usable desktop. Gtk is just so awful) came a long way its still not comparable to macOS. Its mainly issues with HiDPI scaling (where macOS is really good). Once you see how other DEs handle things like that (HiDPI, fonts, window borders, mouse handling! etc., things appearing simple and unimportant, yet are actually essential) one can appreciate how good macOS is in that regard. A carry over from the old PPC days, btw. I doubt Apple would pull this off today on the Mac platform

I also work with CUDA (development), therefore I heavily depend on nVidia GPUs which don't really work with Wayland. Not a big deal right now, but a future concern nonetheless

 

[Queen6]

Not that I disagree. That said, Windows is by no means any better. And let's not forget Microsofts obsession with data collection. Reading the EULA alone stops me from considering their product.

I also consider macOS the by less obtrusive operating system; it gets the crucial parts just right.

Literally all the issues I have with Apple and its products are - as @Queen6 stated - bad, bad executive decisions. Fixing those would be very easy - if only they wanted.
I agree with those who believe under Jobs' reign this would not have happened. Yes, he also made bad decisions. However, really believe he cared about the products and had a desire for getting them right.
I see no such desire this days...



I agree. Locked down OSses, data collection, etc. The duopoly clearly is no good for customers. The massive billions Apple/Microsoft make is no coincidence. BOTH companies massively overcharge customers for the lack of alternatives; those customers are: we all. And we are forced to pay because we don't have a choice really.

Which is why I'd like to see a fresh competitor. Think Linux, but less fragmented

Right on the money, time for a change for the better, as we are not commodities we are end users, if I could blow off W10 & OS X I would do in an instant as my business is not their business...

Q-6

 

[teejaysplace24]

Or you prefer the overall interface and working inside MacOS. And you don't need that idiotic half laptop/half tablet setup. Touch screen on a full blown laptop is pointless. Not to mention tablet mode in windows is a joke.

Maybe you should tell Apple that no one wants a half tablet/half laptop setup the next time they try selling you a Smart Keyboard while insisting that an iPad is just like a full-fledged computer. (Tim Cook’s claim, not mine...)

MacOS is great, and it’s navigability is still far superior to Windows, but it also hasn’t received a meaningful revision in 10+ years, as Apple has fixated instead on iOS and WatchOS and TVOS. Those are all great, but none are professional level tools. Tablet mode (for the few demos I’ve used it) is hardly perfect, but contrasted to the touch capabilities of MacOS — which are precisely none — it’s a considerable step forward. Don’t give me that “people don’t want to reach across their desks” corporate talking point, either. Microsoft fixed that problem with a hinge. When you can fix a supposedly complex ergonomic problem with a thousands of years old piece of technology, the issue wasn’t the problem, but the people trying to solve it.
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For many people, including myself, there is a strong emotional attachment to Apple. I've been using their products for a quarter of a century and to see such shoddy design and reliability issues right across the Mac line makes me despair, especially when the only viable OS alternative is Windows.

It’s the true, long-time Apple fans that feel this change the most.

 

[jerryk]

I also work with CUDA (development), therefore I heavily depend on nVidia GPUs which don't really work with Wayland. Not a big deal right now, but a future concern nonetheless

I just read up on Wayland. Seems like a good goal to be a THE graphic stack for Linux. But not working with Nvidia is a huge barrier to the market. Rather short sighted.

 

[09872738]

I just read up on Wayland. Seems like a good goal to be a THE graphic stack for Linux. But not working with Nvidia is a huge barrier to the market. Rather short sighted.

Indeed. It's not the Wayland guys' fault though; its nVidia not providing the required API (sound familiar to anyone?) - at least for now. I understand its possible to work around this problems somehow, but the workaround is not ready yet. I'm not too deep into this stuff, so please bear with me if that information is somewhat inaccurate or outdated.

 

[jerryk]

Indeed. It's not the Wayland guys' fault though; its nVidia not providing the required API (sound familiar to anyone?) - at least for now. I understand its possible to work around this problems somehow, but the workaround is not ready yet. I'm not too deep into this stuff, so please bear with me if that information is somewhat inaccurate or outdated.

Do they need something that Unity does not? Unity seems to perform very well with the various Nvidia stacks. I run both 10xx cards (9.x drivers) and 20xx cards (10.x) drivers on Unity.

 

[rutrack]

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no.

E.g. there is no proper sync with iPhone/iPad. Also, even though the Plasma 5 desktop (Which is the only one I consider a full featured and usable desktop. Gtk is just so awful) came a long way its still not comparable to macOS. Its mainly issues with HiDPI scaling (where macOS is really good). Once you see how other DEs handle things like that (HiDPI, fonts, window borders, mouse handling! etc., things appearing simple and unimportant, yet are actually essential) one can appreciate how good macOS is in that regard. A carry over from the old PPC days, btw. I doubt Apple would pull this off today on the Mac platform

I also work with CUDA (development), therefore I heavily depend on nVidia GPUs which don't really work with Wayland. Not a big deal right now, but a future concern nonetheless

Ironically, lack of global font scaling in OSX is a major drawback for me. I need/want to have the screen at full resolution with fonts globally increased. In Gnome you can do that really easily with font scaling and it works great, while in MacOS X you're either stack at required resolution with small fonts, or well scaled interface at inadequately small resolution. I'm also running Xorg without any rush to move to Wayland.
[doublepost=1551226151][/doublepost]

Indeed. It's not the Wayland guys' fault though; its nVidia not providing the required API (sound familiar to anyone?) - at least for now. I understand its possible to work around this problems somehow, but the workaround is not ready yet. I'm not too deep into this stuff, so please bear with me if that information is somewhat inaccurate or outdated.

Wayland runs fine with open source nouveau driver btw
More on that:
https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/****-you-nvidia.html

 

[09872738]

Wayland runs fine with open source nouveau driver btw
More on that:
https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/****-you-nvidia.html

I know. But for one: nouveau is pretty slow, about 1/10th of the performance of nVidias binary driver. And, as mentioned, I am developing CUDA stuff. Nouveau of course won't do CUDA, so...

And Gnome? Nah... Not going into details, but Gnome is out of the question.

Do they need something that Unity does not? Unity seems to perform very well with the various Nvidia stacks. I run both 10xx cards (9.x drivers) and 20xx cards (10.x) drivers on Unity.

Unity by default runs Xorg; the legacy display manager Wayland is supposed to replace, hence no issues there.
As said, for now its not a big deal; my Kubuntu desktop runs fine without Wayland (which is, for now, still rather experimental). But Wayland seems the future on the Linux desktop, so at some point it will become an issue. Unless they somehow fix it

 

[rutrack]

I know. But for one: nouveau is pretty slow, about 1/10th of the performance of nVidias binary driver. And, as mentioned, I am developing CUDA stuff. Nouveau of course won't do CUDA, so...

And Gnome? Nah... Not going into details, but Gnome is out of the question.



Unity by default runs Xorg; the legacy display manager Wayland is supposed to replace, hence no issues there.
As said, for now its not a big deal; my Kubuntu desktop runs fine without Wayland (which is, for now, still rather experimental). But Wayland seems the future on the Linux desktop, so at some point it will become an issue. Unless they somehow fix it

That shouldn't be a dealbreaker, in an unlikely case nvidia support will not catch up, you can run your screen on integrated graphics, while keep doing the cuda development. A google search returns results with a setup like this with Xserver, https://forums.fast.ai/t/successful...er-and-nvidia-gpu-for-cuda-work-setup/20128/2

 

[09872738]

As said: Not a big deal for now and I am well aware how to deal with that at present. Actually, the default installation of Ubuntu runs the display on the iGPU and CUDA on the dGPU. That's exactly my setup on my Linux machines.

However, Wayland is very likely the upcoming standard on the Linux desktop and as long as it is unclear how nVidia support is going to be there is cause for concern. Its is a bit reminiscent on the nVidia situation on the Mac, albeit of course with the difference that the Linux guys certainly have no intent of keeping nVidia away from their platform, even though nVidias closed driver source policy is not exactly appreciated by the community.

 

[The_Interloper]

I don't like that everything's glued down with MacBooks, and that the upgrade prices are ridiculous. But since we're looking at alternatives, the Surfacebook & and Surface Studio machines Microsoft makes are just as locked down for upgrades and even more ridiculously overpriced IMO.

Yes, but they are reference designs. There are masses of alternatives in the Windows world - you can always get something more open/powerful/upgradeable/faster/cheaper/slimmer/lighter etc from HP, Dell, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Razer, MSI, Gigabyte, Huawei etc etc etc (and that's not even counting all the small, 'boutique' companies out there).

With macOS, it's Apple or nothing. If the hardware is faulty by design (which it is), tough luck. They are holding the OS hostage.

 

[Mendota]

I don't think its quite that bad, They keyboard is probably the biggest issue and the one that pushed me away (I'm also concerned about flexgate). The Apple ecosytem has its own set of advantages.

I forget where I posted but Dave2D has a video on why Apple may go with a 16" laptop and that will alleviate the corner they painted themselves into thermally with these hot running laptops. Yet will they roll this out in 2019 with a possible move to ARM in 2020? I personally do question Apple's commitment to the Mac Platform but the ecosystem makes sense for so many people and many content creators are on Macs

If Apple unveils or shows off their new Mac Pro in WWDC, I think we'll get a sense of Apple's dedication to the Mac platform.

Well for me it doesn't matter if Apple goes to ARM and then becomes incompatible with everything except IOS because I am not dependent on them for my primary computing. I'd pick one up just for the interest (not at full price) assuming it doesn't have major issues, just as I picked up various Windows type machines. They too are developing ARM machines and picked up HP's. There can be something for everyone. The problem is that if they do go all in and drop Intel compatibility that will hurt those that depend on them professionally.

I do find myself wondering if Apple does care about the "pro" market anymore. I hope that the current state of their phone sales will give them a wake up call and they reconsider and start caring.
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As said: Not a big deal for now and I am well aware how to deal with that at present. Actually, the default installation of Ubuntu runs the display on the iGPU and CUDA on the dGPU. That's exactly my setup on my Linux machines.

However, Wayland is very likely the upcoming standard on the Linux desktop and as long as it is unclear how nVidia support is going to be there is cause for concern. Its is a bit reminiscent on the nVidia situation on the Mac, albeit of course with the difference that the Linux guys certainly have no intent of keeping nVidia away from their platform, even though nVidias closed driver source policy is not exactly appreciated by the community.

Given that you have so much experience and success with Linux, perhaps you would be willing to help me out with some questions. I like Linux and I would like to set it up on it's own machine instead of just doing VM's to experience it that way. But at the moment I hesitate because I have had so many driver and other issues in the past.

 

[Thysanoptera]

However, Wayland is very likely a future standard on the Linux desktop and as long as is unclear how nVidia support is going to be there is cause for concern.

Wayland? I'm still coming to terms with transition to X.org, dammit this world moves fast.

I do find myself wondering if Apple does care about the "pro" market anymore. I hope that the current state of their phone sales will give them a wake up call and they reconsider and start caring.

I think there is a "pro" market in the future for Apple, they still need somebody to write programs and content they can sell as services, monetize and profit from. IMHO the 2020 ARM based Macbook will be called "iPad Developers kit".

 

[Mendota]

Not that I disagree. That said, Windows is by no means any better. And let's not forget Microsofts obsession with data collection. Reading their EULA causes me to throw up and keeps me from considering their products.

I also consider macOS the by far less obtrusive operating system; it gets the crucial parts just right.

Literally all the issues I have with Apple and its products are - as @Queen6 stated - bad, bad executive decisions. Fixing those would be very easy - if only they wanted.
I agree with those who believe under Jobs' reign this would not have happened. Yes, he also made bad decisions. However, I really believe he cared about the products and had a desire for getting them right.
I see no such desire this days...



I agree. Locked down OSses, data collection, etc. The duopoly clearly is no good for customers. The massive billions Apple/Microsoft make is no coincidence. BOTH companies massively overcharge customers for the lack of alternatives; those customers are: we all. And we are forced to pay because we don't have a choice really.

Which is why I'd like to see a fresh competitor. Think Linux, but less fragmented

Well, I like Windows. Windows works well for me. No issues, no crashes, and it supports all my software and everything I like to do. And I am use to it so I have no problems getting my way around. As for the date collecting, it is not personal and I have no problem with it as it aids in development and improving of the product. I actually have more issues with Google because they are really in your face and collect very personal information... But I am only speaking for myself.

 

[agaskew]

Well, I like Windows. Windows works well for me. No issues, no crashes, and it supports all my software and everything I like to do. And I am use to it so I have no problems getting my way around. As for the date collecting, it is not personal and I have no problem with it as it aids in development and improving of the product. I actually have more issues with Google because they are really in your face and collect very personal information... But I am only speaking for myself.

Same here. I don't see W10 as perfect in any way, in fact some things it does are downright silly, but I find it easy to get around and get stuff done. OS X / MacOS just got in my way. None of these Operating Systems are perfect, we could stand some competition here but the duopoly on desktop and mobile shows no signs of getting split.

I dragged myself out of the Apple ecosystem a few years ago after being a Macbook/iPhone user for several years. However, for me it was the Apple software experience that turned me away initially, not the hardware. First I had so many problems with iOS and its dreadful email capabilities, then an iOS upgrade killed my iPad performance stone dead with no downgrade path, while with each release of OS X the new 'features' got sillier and more geared to the existing iOS user base, while ignoring some of its ridiculous shortcomings such as the ongoing car crash that is Finder. The last MBP I had (2014) is still going strong for a colleague, but I have to count my lucky stars I stopped buying Apple stuff before the flimsy iPhone6/7/8 era and the current line up of laptops.

Apple makes most of its profit selling wildly expensive, glued together appliances that are badly designed, shoddily made, fragile and deliberately designed to be impossible to upgrade or cheaply repaired. They then make you pay even more for an extended warranty, a power cable and some dongles. Who else invents their own screw type to determ people from opening their laptops up? They'll be glued shut completely next, like those idiotic Microsoft Surface devices. As soon as Apple produce an iOS/ARM laptop, with multi windowing and mouse pointer support, the range of their offerings will simply be defined by the screen and battery size. They'll cost even more, be unrepairable and defended to the last by the faithful.

 

[leman]

My work relies on competent and performant hardware that doesn't overly present compromise and or obstacle. One would think a individual dealing with IT professionally would fully understand the cost of upgrading a major multinational company is very significant, or maybe not as the case maybe...

I was not referring to your organisation but to makers of professional equipment, who like to be stuck 2-3 generations behind. We also have to work with equipment that relies on particular USB standards and only works with selected laptops. Obviously we don't use Macs to operate that equipment.

My expectation for HW/SW is very similar to people, I expect the very best, no excuses simple as that, if you cant delver then I have no need...

My expectations are very similar to yours and that's why I have been using Apple for the past 10 years — they offer the best products for my purpose.

Overall, it seems that we are in agreement about key points but I still find it very difficult to understand your narrative. More powerful workstations with more ports and features than the MBP were available at all times. And if you story is that you needed better performing hardware, I don't understand why you stuck with Macs for so long. This time you got a larger 17" laptop that offers 20% more CPU performance. Few years ago you could have got a larger 17" laptop that offered 50-100% more performance. And I can understand that Apple's drive to embrace new standards of computing make their products less suitable for your use case — just as they decided to drop serial ports and embrace USB twenty years ago, for which they were widely criticised — but that's not Apple problem, and certainly not an indication that Apple is abandoning professional users. In my field (academia), Mac is as prevalent as ever.

Bottomline: pick the tool best for your job. Computers are not religion.
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As for the date collecting, it is not personal and I have no problem with it as it aids in development and improving of the product.

I think you should re-read Windows Privacy Statement: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

Not only they use personal data for targeted advertising but also state that they will share your data "with vendors working on our behalf", "to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers". And of course there is Windows keylogger...

Personally, I think that the privacy statement makes Windows 10 a risky software to be used in a corporate or governmental environment as MS fairly openly reserves the right to spy on you to "protect their products", which can frankly mean anything.

 

[Olivia88]

Not only they use personal data for targeted advertising but also state that they will share your data "with vendors working on our behalf", "to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers". And of course there is Windows keylogger...

Personally, I think that the privacy statement makes Windows 10 a risky software to be used in a corporate or governmental environment as MS fairly openly reserves the right to spy on you to "protect their products", which can frankly mean anything.

I Agree, its downright scary to what length they're willing to go to collect data.

 

[TomOSeven]

Its mainly issues with HiDPI scaling (where macOS is really good).

I used ElementaryOS the other day on 14" 1440p screen and the scaling worked perfectly.

Then connected to a 1440p 27" external display and only had 100% and 200% scaling options. God dammit.

 

[Mendota]

I was not referring to your organisation but to makers of professional equipment, who like to be stuck 2-3 generations behind. We also have to work with equipment that relies on particular USB standards and only works with selected laptops. Obviously we don't use Macs to operate that equipment.




My expectations are very similar to yours and that's why I have been using Apple for the past 10 years — they offer the best products for my purpose.

Overall, it seems that we are in agreement about key points but I still find it very difficult to understand your narrative. More powerful workstations with more ports and features than the MBP were available at all times. And if you story is that you needed better performing hardware, I don't understand why you stuck with Macs for so long. This time you got a larger 17" laptop that offers 20% more CPU performance. Few years ago you could have got a larger 17" laptop that offered 50-100% more performance. And I can understand that Apple's drive to embrace new standards of computing make their products less suitable for your use case — just as they decided to drop serial ports and embrace USB twenty years ago, for which they were widely criticised — but that's not Apple problem, and certainly not an indication that Apple is abandoning professional users. In my field (academia), Mac is as prevalent as ever.

Bottomline: pick the tool best for your job. Computers are not religion.
[doublepost=1551257218][/doublepost]

I think you should re-read Windows Privacy Statement: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

Not only they use personal data for targeted advertising but also state that they will share your data "with vendors working on our behalf", "to protect our customers; to protect lives; to maintain the security of our products; and to protect the rights and property of Microsoft and its customers". And of course there is Windows keylogger...

Personally, I think that the privacy statement makes Windows 10 a risky software to be used in a corporate or governmental environment as MS fairly openly reserves the right to spy on you to "protect their products", which can frankly mean anything.

Have you read Google's? That is even more annoying. At the end of the day, the old ways of surfing and privacy are gone, and they are not ever coming back. In some ways it has been a good thing. Terrorist and child pornographers don't have the "privacy" they once had. For myself personally, I am more alarmed at public sites such as Google and Facebook publishing items such as names, addresses, and other personal data that can be misused by stalkers and others. That is more of a threat than Microsoft collecting data on their operating system.

I recognize that Apple has done a good job at ginning it's users up, and playing the white knight about privacy, but I was not born last night. The only reason Apple is playing the privacy card is because they want to use it against their competitors, particularly Alphabet.

 

[maflynn]

I think you should re-read Windows Privacy Statement: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

I'm not denying what's in there or excusing it. I do wonder why MS needs to go down this path, but they do. With windows being more open, and flexible then macOS, its easy enough to stop the sharing if you or anyone feels so moved.

They're not alone, and privacy in the new millennium is a phantom, again not justifying their moves but just pointing out that we have no real privacy.