Queen6
macrumors G5
A factor of greed little else, actually bordering on abuse, then again monopolies never serve the customer...
Q-6
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A factor of greed little else, actually bordering on abuse, then again monopolies never serve the customer...
Q-6
I don't tend to agree that the MBP and P1 & Zbook are that different as they use the same CPU, ram, SSD etc. And as you say with the Vega 20 comparative GPU.
My point of listing these were the fact that so many on this site bemoan that Apple are not making these amazing workstation laptops and are trounced by everyone else, but in reality they aren't. Maybe made it too thin and unable to really cope with the specifications, but on paper the competition isn't that great.
But yes the big compromise is price. I can get a P1 for $1500 less than the equivalent MBP. It makes you think, for certain. And I also agree, that paying this additional price, should mean no issues.
SDColorado
macrumors 601
Does the $400 Apple upcharge include $165 for the RAM upgrade plus $235 labor and soldering fee? 😉
Queen6
macrumors G5
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Wouldn't having actual DIMM slots necessitates human labor to change RAM config, while soldering RAM can be automated along with the rest of the board? Apple probably did away with slots for cost saving reasons even.
Queen6
macrumors G5
Apple did away with DIMM slots to achieve a thinner chassis, reduce it's manufacturing cost and force it's inhouse upgrades, the latter being a big one given the margins involved...
Q-6
The way you put it makes a very sound case of displaying Apple's "greed" problem lately. While it is reasonable to reduce cost and streamline manufacturing, there should be price reduction reflected on the retail side to counter balance the loss of freedom in (3rd party) configurability and serviceability. Yet Apple has the nerve to over-charge BTO upgrades, because they can.
I personally still stick with the Apple ecosystem specifically just because of (mac)OS X. But even that holy grail isn't being well maintained nowadays. When macOS almost falls to the same league of usability as Windows or even Linux then their Macs will be judged strictly on hardware level.
Queen6
macrumors G5
Simple it's monopoly and Apple has consecutively tightened the noose by nickel & diming it's customers ever more. At $4,250 plus tax I'd still need pay for dongles & adaptors just to get basic connectivity and a power cable. Let alone AppleCare being basically mandatory thx to poor/selfish design it's just outright cheap on Apple's behalf.
Desktop OS has been in decline for years and now too unstable for my needs, add in all the issues with the MBP and obvious had to occur. As others have said Apple abandoned us, we didn't abandon Apple...
I don't love W10, equally it does work for me without issue, and that's a lot more important than looking nicer, loosing stability and keyboards of all things failing 🙄 Designed in Cupertino by Retards 😵
Q-6
skaertus
macrumors 601
I have been shifting to Windows lately.
This weekend, I traveled to my parents’ home, and I brought my 2016 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar with me. It is a great machine, light and well made, a real pleasure to see and touch.
MacOS, however, was slow, sluggish and cumbersome. It was surprisingly hard to getting anything done on it, much more than on the past. Microsoft Office was just terrible on macOS.
Windows 10 on BootCamp was way more responsive, and allowed me to promptly do whatever I needed. And needless to say, Microsoft Office for Windows is pretty much one of the best pieces of software ever written.
It is hard to justify a Mac when the software does not work like you want. It is well made machine, but there is no point if software does not help. Samsung Galaxy S phones are also great devices, but their software is crap. I hope Macs do not become the Galaxies of the computer world.
For now, the MacBook Pro is still a beautiful machine. It has a gorgeous bright display. I like the butterfly keyboard. However, the lack of decent trackpad drivers make it difficult to use under Windows. And, honestly, there are several other devices, much cheaper ones, more suitable to run Windows than a MacBook Pro.
As for desktops, it is even harder. iMacs are expensive beasts, and they still come with 7th gen quad-core processors. Six-core processors are everywhere now, and AMD is apparently warming up to sell 16-core chips to the mainstream market. The iMac screen is great, but I do not want it to be tied to an outdated computer when I can get a far more powerful PC for less than half of the price.
This weekend, I traveled to my parents’ home, and I brought my 2016 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar with me. It is a great machine, light and well made, a real pleasure to see and touch.
MacOS, however, was slow, sluggish and cumbersome. It was surprisingly hard to getting anything done on it, much more than on the past. Microsoft Office was just terrible on macOS.
Windows 10 on BootCamp was way more responsive, and allowed me to promptly do whatever I needed. And needless to say, Microsoft Office for Windows is pretty much one of the best pieces of software ever written.
It is hard to justify a Mac when the software does not work like you want. It is well made machine, but there is no point if software does not help. Samsung Galaxy S phones are also great devices, but their software is crap. I hope Macs do not become the Galaxies of the computer world.
For now, the MacBook Pro is still a beautiful machine. It has a gorgeous bright display. I like the butterfly keyboard. However, the lack of decent trackpad drivers make it difficult to use under Windows. And, honestly, there are several other devices, much cheaper ones, more suitable to run Windows than a MacBook Pro.
As for desktops, it is even harder. iMacs are expensive beasts, and they still come with 7th gen quad-core processors. Six-core processors are everywhere now, and AMD is apparently warming up to sell 16-core chips to the mainstream market. The iMac screen is great, but I do not want it to be tied to an outdated computer when I can get a far more powerful PC for less than half of the price.
I could not agree more. All brands have their issues, and there are common issues across all brands (notably cooling).
In the past, paying extra for Apple was painful but usually worth it. Not any more.
Mendota
macrumors 6502a
Well guys, I have to say it. I love the look of Windows. My Desktop: The painting is mine.
MimicBunion972
macrumors member
That reminds me the time when I got my first MBP 15 in 2007, I installed Windows and used Windows exclusively for a year before getting into the Apple ecosystem. I didn't buy MBP for Mac OS, I bought it because it was the all around best laptop on hardware level. Nowadays one must love Mac OS to buy a MBP.
skaertus
macrumors 601
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
SDColorado
macrumors 601
I am sure AppleCare+ has become one of those "services" that Apple makes so much money on these days. In the past it seemed that almost nobody purchased Apple Care. The machines were reliable, they "just worked" and you if they survived the first 14 days (which you could usually get extended to 30 if you had a problem within the first month), they would generally last you for years. If for some reason they didn't, they weren't so obnoxiously expensive to repair.
But nowadays, what should be a minor issue has turned into big out of warranty repairs. Flexgate, a $600 repair because a $6 cable failed, keyboard fails its a top case replacement. Blue spots appear on the display, touchpad or touch bar becomes unresponsive, etc. big out of warranty repair bills. While the issues may only affect a minority of machines, who wants to be the part of that minority facing a huge out of warranty repair bill?
You would almost be crazy not to buy Apple Care these days and maybe crazy not to sell your current machine before Apple Care expires. It sets up a nice purchase/insure/replace cycle for Apple.
dspdoc
macrumors 68000
Excellent point! The price to performance ratio between Apple and anyone else is now pathetic.
Queen6
macrumors G5
I personally believe it's a very deliberate action to shift more cost to the customer. When presented with such a hefty repair I am sure the vast majority, especially the uninformed will defer to purchase new hardware, which benefits Apple significantly.
Just why else does Apple use a known problematic keyboard design that can cost over $700 to replace? As for that minority seems it's increasing by the day, as are other design flaws. The keyboard and flex ribbon simply illustrate that Apple fails to qualify it's hardware adequately, nor overly cares too.
Late last year an (alleged) ex Apple engineer stated the same that Apple does not qualify it's hardware anywhere near as much as one would think. As a quality professional I rather think the same, very obvious really. I have said since the introduction of the 2016 MBP that the design of the notebook by far serves Apple better than the user, nothing's changed with that.
Apple's notebooks are now cheaper to produce and vastly more expensive to repair, making AppleCare mandatory not optional. As you stated it very neatly sets up a cycle that solely benefits Apple. For me pricing is not an issue as the hardware pays for itself, equally I don't care for the direction, nor do I like being set up for such a situation.
I could get past all this if the computers delivered, they don't and the risk of being stuck with "dud" increasing with every new iteration. Very sadly not much to like about the Mac in 2019, not really what I envisaged by a long chalk...
Q-6
[doublepost=1551812928][/doublepost]
For those that need to get things done with performance in mind the Mac is now a weak joke. One can literally pay twice the price for half the performance, with added unreliability and built in obsolescence...
Q-6
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I abandoned ship almost 2 years ago. My late 2011 MBP reached the point where it became super frustrating to use, and I had to use it on a daily basis, so I finally decided to get a new one after 5 years. I wanted a 15” both for the screen real estate and the power. However, I couldn’t justify the price.
The MBP would’ve been around $2500 even with a Apple’s student discount and then another 4% discount I get from my university on top of that. I got a Dell XPS 15 with the equivalent specs for $1500. That’s $1000 less than the MBP. The screen and speakers on the XPS aren’t as good as the MBP, but it sure didn’t justify $1000 more.
I still miss macOS and hope to come back to a MacBook Pro when I’m making more money and it provides more value, but it just seemed idiotic to me to spend that kind of extra money. However, by the time this XPS needs replaced, I might be able to go iPad only. I can already do 95% of what I want to do on an iPad for much cheaper than a MacBook Pro and the equivalent macOS software. It’s become more of an enjoyable experience for me too. I can only imagine where the iPad will be in a few years from now. On second thought, I’m going into finance for a career, so I’ll probably always be needing Windows with Excel from now on.
The MBP would’ve been around $2500 even with a Apple’s student discount and then another 4% discount I get from my university on top of that. I got a Dell XPS 15 with the equivalent specs for $1500. That’s $1000 less than the MBP. The screen and speakers on the XPS aren’t as good as the MBP, but it sure didn’t justify $1000 more.
I still miss macOS and hope to come back to a MacBook Pro when I’m making more money and it provides more value, but it just seemed idiotic to me to spend that kind of extra money. However, by the time this XPS needs replaced, I might be able to go iPad only. I can already do 95% of what I want to do on an iPad for much cheaper than a MacBook Pro and the equivalent macOS software. It’s become more of an enjoyable experience for me too. I can only imagine where the iPad will be in a few years from now. On second thought, I’m going into finance for a career, so I’ll probably always be needing Windows with Excel from now on.
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Mendota
macrumors 6502a
Nothing new, it is just that I am puzzled when I hear people describe Windows as being "ugly". The only ugly system I have seen it Ubuntu at the start, but with a few tweaks, I can make it look good as well. But how can Windows be ugly when you can make it look any way you want? You can even make it look like a Mac, dock and all. Check out Stardock Window Blinds.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
I've used Stardock's Object Desktop before, it can be a nice set of utilities to theme and/or customize your windows experience.
My first foray into Mac land was in 2007, when I purchased a MBP. It had a terrible display, with a substantial color gradient (can't be corrected with a colorimeter). I exchanged it for another, and the second had the same display problem in addition to a dent in the case over one of the ports. I returned that, wondering why Apple had such loyal fans. Two years later, I tried again. I bought a mid-2009 13-inch MBP that I still have, but no longer use. (I replaced the hard drive with an SSD, and I've replaced the battery a couple of times.)
Late last year, I had a Surface Pro 4 that had a motherboard failure a few months after the expiration of the extended warranty. Those devices are really not repairable. So I looked at MBPs again, but I couldn't justify the expense. I also had concerns about the keyboard.
I now own a 2018 13-inch Dell XPS 9370 with a 4K panel, i7-8550U CPU, 16 GB of RAM, and a 512 GB SSD that I got for about $1450 in a Black Friday sale. The display is very bright, uniform, no bleed, and covers 100% of sRGB and 75% of Adobe RGB. After removing all of the Dell bloatware, I'm really happy with it. My current stable of computers includes the Dell, a 2017 27-inch iMac (love it) and a Windows desktop that I built for gaming. I installed my own RAM in the iMac to save some money. It was still expensive with the 1 TB SSD, but it's been worth it for editing photos and music production.
Late last year, I had a Surface Pro 4 that had a motherboard failure a few months after the expiration of the extended warranty. Those devices are really not repairable. So I looked at MBPs again, but I couldn't justify the expense. I also had concerns about the keyboard.
I now own a 2018 13-inch Dell XPS 9370 with a 4K panel, i7-8550U CPU, 16 GB of RAM, and a 512 GB SSD that I got for about $1450 in a Black Friday sale. The display is very bright, uniform, no bleed, and covers 100% of sRGB and 75% of Adobe RGB. After removing all of the Dell bloatware, I'm really happy with it. My current stable of computers includes the Dell, a 2017 27-inch iMac (love it) and a Windows desktop that I built for gaming. I installed my own RAM in the iMac to save some money. It was still expensive with the 1 TB SSD, but it's been worth it for editing photos and music production.
turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
I have abandoned ship for now
I am no longer the owner of a legit mac right now.
I had a guy locally that has been very persistent and interested in my 2015 15” at a very attractive price and I decided to finally go ahead and just jump out and get my money on the sidelines.
I truly loved my 2015 15 inch, but the truth is I was not using it in any way where it needed to be a laptop
My gaming PC I built specifically with a possible return to hackintosh land in mind (I’ve done several over the last decade) and so.... in just one morning and afternoon I got that up and running and I now have essentially my own iMac (hack).
If you do it right it’s shocking how compatible it is. Literally everything works.
That said I am purposely on High Sierra instead of a Mojave because I want to be able to use my GTX 1070 on both sides. Despite NVIDIA still being willing to play ball, Apple has cut them out and won’t even let them release third-party drivers for those that want to use them on Mojave with NVDA GPUs.
Another total d*** move by Apple for no reason at all.
Doesn’t bother me though, for now, as high sierra works wonderfully
I am no longer the owner of a legit mac right now.
I had a guy locally that has been very persistent and interested in my 2015 15” at a very attractive price and I decided to finally go ahead and just jump out and get my money on the sidelines.
I truly loved my 2015 15 inch, but the truth is I was not using it in any way where it needed to be a laptop
My gaming PC I built specifically with a possible return to hackintosh land in mind (I’ve done several over the last decade) and so.... in just one morning and afternoon I got that up and running and I now have essentially my own iMac (hack).
If you do it right it’s shocking how compatible it is. Literally everything works.
That said I am purposely on High Sierra instead of a Mojave because I want to be able to use my GTX 1070 on both sides. Despite NVIDIA still being willing to play ball, Apple has cut them out and won’t even let them release third-party drivers for those that want to use them on Mojave with NVDA GPUs.
Another total d*** move by Apple for no reason at all.
Doesn’t bother me though, for now, as high sierra works wonderfully
I'm confused. You just made a post with you having a 2016+ or later MBP on Friday (link) and I also could've sworn you've made multiple posts about how you're going to keep your 2015 MBP as long as possible since you despise the 2016+ MBPs. With respect, something seems fishy.
turbineseaplane
macrumors Penryn
In the post of mine that you linked to...
Right before the first photo you’ll see this:
I don’t mention it/her often, but the 2016 is her machine.
I was using it to do updates for her, which I do periodically.
She refuses to sell it right now.
It works fine for her, even with a partially stuck space bar, as it’s docked 90% of the time.
As for the 2015. A phenomenal machine.
I’ve just been battling storage issues and I wasn’t thrilled with the trade offs in the few Third Party 2TB NVMe drives I tried.
You'll find lots of posts from me about all that in the 2013/2014 aftermarket NVMe thread which is quite active. (some of us 2015's slipped in and chatted there as it was mostly relevant)
With the Hack I can just add SATA SSD’s for raw reasonably fast storage space, at will, which is what I need right now.
I loved my 2015.
It just doesn’t best fit what I need right now so it was time to move on and get money off the table.
I reserve the right to change course as life and business dictates.
I’m sure you can appreciate that, yeah?
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MBAir2010
macrumors G3
After installing Mojave on the mini, i think I need to grab one of those circular things on a rope attached to a ship!
That Macbook air 2017 really enticed me, hopefully that has a normal keyboard, and a removable SSD drive.
That Macbook air 2017 really enticed me, hopefully that has a normal keyboard, and a removable SSD drive.