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And as a last point I have seen the Dell on site technicians at work with a collegues computer. It took 2 visits and many arguments to get his laptop fixed [a time period of 6 weeks of no usable computer].

Conversely Apple doesn't offer onsite service and I've seen many reports of people needing to send in their MBP multiple times for the keyboard repair losing out on their laptop 2 to 3 weeks at a time. I don't disagree that things break, whether, its apple, lenovo, or dell. Dell is good in one respect because it offers onsite. Also the advantages of dell/lenovo/others is that its keyboard design is not flawed to a degree that it requires a a repair program. I think this thread is a tesitment of many apple fan's frustration over the QC and design issues that have befallen our beloved laptops. That frustration has led many to leave or contemplate leaving. The thread title speaks of this, i.e., "anyone else abandoning ship"
 
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I truly do not understand why everyone is going so crazy over all this. If you don’t like it leave.

Did the TI PowerBook offer value? Mine had a CD drive in the shape of a banana and it cost a fortune.

Or did the MBP in 2010 -12 offer great value - mine was underpowered.

Did the 2014 MBP offer great value? Mine was turd and constantly overheated.

They were never workstations, and I realised this after my 2014 model and never again did I expect too much out of them. Since that epiphany I am more than happy with the current models. The current models are as good as any previous model in my eyes and this amazing Apple that you all so long for that has gone, truly disappeared when they removed ‘Computers’ from their name. A big hint right there.

In addition, in all reviews I read, the current MBP can stand up against workstations like the Zbook apparently [I still believe the fans would go crazy......]. What’s the big deal? You can’t upgrade the ram and ssd? You cant change a keyboard yourself? I have not wanted to or had the need to do any of these things in the last 10 years.

And as a last point I have seen the Dell on site technicians at work with a collegues computer. It took 2 visits and many arguments to get his laptop fixed [a time period of 6 weeks of no usable computer].

Many of us have professionally, equally that costs and if Apple wants professional acceptance it needs to delver accordingly simple as that...

Q-6
 
Tesla is at least doing something nobody is doing.

Apple is simply making overhyped, overpriced and over "thinned" hardware that does the exact same thing with the same components as everyone else.

Unfortunately for Tesla there are a lot of other EV car companies now, especially in Asia and the EU. For example, the Kia Niro and Hyundia Kona EVs are good practical option.

As a result, Teslas are starting to look very underwhelming in a several areas, especially when it comes to usability - windshield wiper controls in a menu on Model 3, Automatic wipers driven by AI instead of simple rain sensors so functionality is not predictable. Fit - panel gaps, wind noise. And in some cases prices (Model X starts now at $89,000).
 
Isn't that exactly what this thread's title is about? People discussing if they are abandoning ship or not? Some are leaving or thinking about it and some don't.

What exactly is everyone going crazy over? Some people are expressing there disappointment with Apple and some are defending Apple. Nothing crazy about that. And yes.. people who don't like it already leave, so people are doing what you are suggesting. What is there to not understand?

He’s just one of the many that wants to completely silence any of this kind of talk.
 
Conversely Apple doesn't offer onsite service and I've seen many reports of people needing to send in their MBP multiple times for the keyboard repair losing out on their laptop 2 to 3 weeks at a time. I don't disagree that things break, whether, its apple, lenovo, or dell. Dell is good in one respect because it offers onsite. Also the advantages of dell/lenovo/others is that its keyboard design is not flawed to a degree that it requires a a repair program. I think this thread is a tesitment of many apple fan's frustration over the QC and design issues that have befallen our beloved laptops. That frustration has led many to leave or contemplate leaving. The thread title speaks of this, i.e., "anyone else abandoning ship"

Dell, Lenovo, and others contract out to third-party tech companies to do the onsite, so there is no doubt that the quality of that service can vary from provider to provider and can be hit and miss. But sometimes the instore experience of the Apple Store can be a bit hit or miss as well. The one near me has gone through a few management staff changes over the years. Sometimes it is outstanding, sometimes not so much. Currently, it is trending upwards.

I know some people like the store experience of Apple and I consider myself lucky to have 2 that are really close, 3 within 20 miles. Some folks aren't so lucky so the store experience isn't as big a selling point and the onsite can be a better option.

Especially for things that can be quickly addressed onsite. Lenovo, probably Dell as well, they will replace a keyboard or display on site for you and get you back to work. Apple, even though you have the store nearby, most stuff seems to get sent out these days, so the store ends up being nothing more than a drop-off/pick up point.
 
Conversely Apple doesn't offer onsite service and I've seen many reports of people needing to send in their MBP multiple times for the keyboard repair losing out on their laptop 2 to 3 weeks at a time. I don't disagree that things break, whether, its apple, lenovo, or dell. Dell is good in one respect because it offers onsite. Also the advantages of dell/lenovo/others is that its keyboard design is not flawed to a degree that it requires a a repair program. I think this thread is a tesitment of many apple fan's frustration over the QC and design issues that have befallen our beloved laptops. That frustration has led many to leave or contemplate leaving. The thread title speaks of this, i.e., "anyone else abandoning ship"

Yes, but my point was that the onsite was useless, in comparison to the service I have received in store. We can all give our own anecdotal experience on these things.

Service is the no.1 thing that is preventing me 'abandoning ship'. This comes from dealing with HP, Dell and Lenovo in the past in both professional and personal settings.
 
Yes, but my point was that the onsite was useless, in comparison to the service I have received in store. We can all give our own anecdotal experience on these things.

Service is the no.1 thing that is preventing me 'abandoning ship'. This comes from dealing with HP, Dell and Lenovo in the past in both professional and personal settings.

Funny. We all take the chances when we purchase any electronics. Everything can fail., but the problem with Apple's MBP nowadays is that it's the design that makes things fail.

Contrary to other people, I'm quite ok with the current form factor and keyboard. I think I may even accept the touchbar since I rarely use the laptop without exernal keyboard when doing work, and rarely do the work while on the go. I even kinda like the feel of new butterfly keyboard. I use my portable for personnal thing, and work laptop for coding. All my CPU burning work is done by Desktop anyway. So I'm quite ok with current MBP 15". MBP's touch pad, screen and aesthetic is top notch.

HOWEVER, the things that I'm totally not ok is its keyboard unreliability. This alone makes MBP inferior to other Dell, Lenovo, HP whatever. Apple designed, pretty sure unintentional, the MBP to fail period. I've never heard of a laptop that can fail in keyboard. I don't expect MBP to survive desert environment, but come on. It should survie the general usage environment.
 
Yes, but my point was that the onsite was useless, in comparison to the service I have received in store. We can all give our own anecdotal experience on these things.

Service is the no.1 thing that is preventing me 'abandoning ship'. This comes from dealing with HP, Dell and Lenovo in the past in both professional and personal settings.

Did your college complain to the computer manufacturer about the level of service he/she received from the contracted service company? Or was the argument strictly with the service provider? As I mentioned in an earlier response, those services are provided by a contracted company, not the manufacturer themselves. In other words if it was a Dell, it wasn't Dell who showed up at the office. But complaints to the manufacturer may prompt them to change the contracted provider for that area and perhaps a future experience would be better as a result.
 
Did your college complain to the computer manufacturer about the level of service he/she received from the contracted service company? Or was the argument strictly with the service provider? As I mentioned in an earlier response, those services are provided by a contracted company, not the manufacturer themselves. In other words if it was a Dell, it wasn't Dell who showed up at the office. But complaints to the manufacturer may prompt them to change the contracted provider for that area and perhaps a future experience would be better as a result.

College? They didn't even have the internet when I was there....... :)

the Dell laptop was purchased through a 3rd party retailer but I have no idea who was repairing it [he had a Dell t shirt on].

But my HP experience with workstations was worse.

Really my whole thoughts on all this is there are no perfect manufacturers and no perfect repairers and everyones experience will vary. My personal experience has been great with Apple and makes me very hesitant to leave. I see great PC laptops out there and also think the MBP is still great. Others may disagree, but really I dont think there are any winners in the game at present.
 
College? They didn't even have the internet when I was there....... :)

the Dell laptop was purchased through a 3rd party retailer but I have no idea who was repairing it [he had a Dell t shirt on].

But my HP experience with workstations was worse.

Really my whole thoughts on all this is there are no perfect manufacturers and no perfect repairers and everyones experience will vary. My personal experience has been great with Apple and makes me very hesitant to leave. I see great PC laptops out there and also think the MBP is still great. Others may disagree, but really I dont think there are any winners in the game at present.

HA geez. I didn't even notice that. I must have typoed colleague in the original and that auto-correct was the result :)

They may have Dell shirts on, but of course, Dell doesn't actually come, any more than Best Buy comes if you have an appliance installed. When they came to my home they were wearing Best Buy polo shirts, but the caller ID, when they called ahead, showed the name of an appliance installation company. I forget the name. Doesn't matter, there are dozens of them and they probably use several.

I have also had some shoddy Lenovo onsite service. When they called they said they were calling from "IBM" which I thought was funny, since IBM hasn't owned ThinkPad since 2005 I believe? They were a contracted company based in Commerce City, CO. When I called Lenovo and complained about the service from this company, they got me connected with some company out of Brighton, CO instead, who said that the work order had been forwarded to them.

I am a little frustrated with service from Apple at the moment because I have had some intermittent issues with my laptop that they don't seem interested in dealing with until they become permanent. On one hand, I can understand where they are coming from if it isn't observable and repeatable, they don't want to service it. But from my point of view, just because I can't get the issues to repeat on demand, doesn't mean it isn't happening either. Random shut downs/reboots are annoying.

Lastly of course, whether it is Dell, Lenovo, HP, MS, you always have the option to mail it in for service, which is pretty much exactly what Apple does. They fix almost nothing in the store anymore. Everything is mailed in, repaired and mailed back. So while on-site may be hit or miss, it is an option that Apple doesn't offer. You can still avail yourself of the same mail-in service that Apple does for you, the main difference being that you have to pack and ship it yourself, rather than dropping it off to the store.

But in the end, I believe you are correct. There are no winners in the game at present. Well at least not among the end users :)
 
HA geez. I didn't even notice that. I must have typoed colleague in the original and that auto-correct was the result :)

They may have Dell shirts on, but of course, Dell doesn't actually come, any more than Best Buy comes if you have an appliance installed. When they came to my home they were wearing Best Buy polo shirts, but the caller ID, when they called ahead, showed the name of an appliance installation company. I forget the name. Doesn't matter, there are dozens of them and they probably use several.

I have also had some shoddy Lenovo onsite service. When they called they said they were calling from "IBM" which I thought was funny, since IBM hasn't owned ThinkPad since 2005 I believe? They were a contracted company based in Commerce City, CO. When I called Lenovo and complained about the service from this company, they got me connected with some company out of Brighton, CO instead, who said that the work order had been forwarded to them.

I am a little frustrated with service from Apple at the moment because I have had some intermittent issues with my laptop that they don't seem interested in dealing with until they become permanent. On one hand, I can understand where they are coming from if it isn't observable and repeatable, they don't want to service it. But from my point of view, just because I can't get the issues to repeat on demand, doesn't mean it isn't happening either. Random shut downs/reboots are annoying.

Lastly of course, whether it is Dell, Lenovo, HP, MS, you always have the option to mail it in for service, which is pretty much exactly what Apple does. They fix almost nothing in the store anymore. Everything is mailed in, repaired and mailed back. So while on-site may be hit or miss, it is an option that Apple doesn't offer. You can still avail yourself of the same mail-in service that Apple does for you, the main difference being that you have to pack and ship it yourself, rather than dropping it off to the store.

But in the end, I believe you are correct. There are no winners in the game at present. Well at least not among the end users :)

And that is how it has been since my first real involvements with tech since 1992........
 
I think that some people are missing our point in this thread. We are not trying to refute/convince Mac diehards that we are making the right decision. No, this is more a wake up call to Apple, and we wanted to see if we were alone. When the first intel Macbook was released it was so much better in terms of build quality than anything else on the market. Did it cost more? Yes, but it was worth it. People are still using them today because of how solid and long-lasting they were. We, most of us considered the IT experts for others, started or continued recommending Apple Macs to others, and they continued to reward us..the cheese grater mac pro, the iMac, and especially the unibody macbook pro.

The signs were there though. Discontinuing the 17" macbook pro, getting rid of the dvd drive instead of adding bluray. GPUs falling further and further behind.

What we are saying would have been unthinkable to most of us even five years ago. While Apple has focused on shaped batteries and a quest for thin, Microsoft has been innovating. The Surface line may have once been like combining a toaster and a refrigerator, but I can tell you it isn't like that anymore. I MISS APPLE'S INNOVATION. I never mind paying a premium for a premium product. Magsafe, being able to lift an entire laptop by one corner and no flex. Etc., etc.

Now? Nothing. We are supposed to get excited about an overpriced mini. Lenovo has the keyboard and reliability--that used to be Apple's job. Dell has the screen down, that used to be Apple's job. The Surface line has innovation--that used to be Apple's job.

Apple has a crappy keyboard that isn't as good as their previous generation. How do I know? Look on these forums. A few love it, a few more grow to like it, and most just wish they would return to the old actually innovative way they had it the older models.

I really, really hope this is the year they get me back. I saw this coming a few years ago and have been running hackintoshes. Could a new mac pro (modular please) do it instead? Maybe. A new laptop design with magsafe? Maybe. The windows manufacturers aren't sitting on their hands either.

In short, I think most of us are still slightly incredulous in two things. That Mac has fallen so far, and that we have used Windows 10 for a while and it didn't suck. We didn't even notice it for the most part. I miss obsessive, innovative, unique Apple. I don't miss supply chain optimization Apple.
 
The price though...atleast for me haha. I really like the Huawei Matebook X Pro as well...concerned about the support if there is any issue though.


I am very close to pulling the trigger on one. The price is just amazing. I'd actually be willing to go with the Apple tax but I'm legit concerned their keyboards.
 
To a degree, but price does create a mindset of luxury and quality.

Mindset is one thing. Reality of owning can be another. Based on the comments here, many would be torching their cars.

As I said, I really enjoy the car, but live in fear of getting in a wreck. Tesla forums are full of stories of owners waiting months for body parts to repair a car. Meanwhile the payments, insurance, etc. costs on an un-drivable vehicle keep coming every month.
 
Mindset is one thing. Reality of owning can be another. Based on the comments here, many would be torching their cars.

As I said, I really enjoy the car, but live in fear of getting in a wreck. Tesla forums are full of stories of owners waiting months for body parts to repair a car. Meanwhile the payments, insurance, etc. costs on an un-drivable vehicle keep coming every month.
That sounds horrible. Talk about defensive driving. I think I will stick with my Honda. LOL.
 
I think that some people are missing our point in this thread. We are not trying to refute/convince Mac diehards that we are making the right decision. No, this is more a wake up call to Apple, and we wanted to see if we were alone. When the first intel Macbook was released it was so much better in terms of build quality than anything else on the market. Did it cost more? Yes, but it was worth it. People are still using them today because of how solid and long-lasting they were. We, most of us considered the IT experts for others, started or continued recommending Apple Macs to others, and they continued to reward us..the cheese grater mac pro, the iMac, and especially the unibody macbook pro.

The signs were there though. Discontinuing the 17" macbook pro, getting rid of the dvd drive instead of adding bluray. GPUs falling further and further behind.

What we are saying would have been unthinkable to most of us even five years ago. While Apple has focused on shaped batteries and a quest for thin, Microsoft has been innovating. The Surface line may have once been like combining a toaster and a refrigerator, but I can tell you it isn't like that anymore. I MISS APPLE'S INNOVATION. I never mind paying a premium for a premium product. Magsafe, being able to lift an entire laptop by one corner and no flex. Etc., etc.

Now? Nothing. We are supposed to get excited about an overpriced mini. Lenovo has the keyboard and reliability--that used to be Apple's job. Dell has the screen down, that used to be Apple's job. The Surface line has innovation--that used to be Apple's job.

Apple has a crappy keyboard that isn't as good as their previous generation. How do I know? Look on these forums. A few love it, a few more grow to like it, and most just wish they would return to the old actually innovative way they had it the older models.

I really, really hope this is the year they get me back. I saw this coming a few years ago and have been running hackintoshes. Could a new mac pro (modular please) do it instead? Maybe. A new laptop design with magsafe? Maybe. The windows manufacturers aren't sitting on their hands either.

In short, I think most of us are still slightly incredulous in two things. That Mac has fallen so far, and that we have used Windows 10 for a while and it didn't suck. We didn't even notice it for the most part. I miss obsessive, innovative, unique Apple. I don't miss supply chain optimization Apple.

That's is just absolutely spot on !!! The Windows now has Linux subsystem with great distros and great package management , excellent hd scaling, great performance and a matching battery life in portables, great hardware with excellent keyboards. Apples only innovations in PC market are the new ways to increase profit margin by locking down hardware and hiking prices on anything that's of average specs or higher. OSX is still amazing, although it is not moving forward, introduces very few usability features, usually it's introduction of Apple pay, integration with apples iwatch , locking you to icloud or new desktop backgrounds , forget about font scaling when you can invest in pay in one click.
I don't use this forums as indication , but there are very few people I know who use their laptops for work, who replace their 2015 MBP with new MBP, but quite a few are moving to surface and xps. Moving too Thinkpads only those who used Thinkpads before switching to Macs, like myself.
 
I was planning on upgrading from a MacBook Pro 13" 2009 to one of the newer MacBook Pros. But with the loss of MagSafe (I have small children), and the keyboard issues, I just haven't been able to pull the trigger. My boss gave me an original Surface Book to use. He thought it would be useful for me to use since I've recently returned to school for graduate studies and it has the pen for writing on the screen with OneNote or other similar apps.
What I've noticed over the last year and a half of using it is that Windows 10 is much more stable than previous versions. I have not had any issues with viruses, but then I don't download very much at all except the files from work and PDFs or Word documents for school. The keyboard on the Surface Book is good. I would say it's about as good as the keyboard on my MacBook Pro 2009. For some reason I find that I still make a few more misspellings on the Surface Book than I do on my MacBook Pro, but not as many as when I tried out one of the newer MacBook Pros (2017).
I have also compared the writing/drawing experience of the Surface Pen using just the screen part as a tablet to writing with an iPad Pro and the Apple Pencil. I have to say that the iPad Pro offers a much more natural "paper-like" writing experience. I think that is due both to the texture of the Apple Pencil tip, as well as the higher refresh rate and sensitivity of the Apple Pencil compared to the Surface Pen.
I really like the convertible design of the Surface Book. I like being able to attach or detach the keyboard and within a few seconds be writing on the screen like a tablet, or to flip the screen around and use it like an inclined writing or drawing pad. I use that feature with OneNote for taking notes in class with audio on a daily basis. Unfortunately, this is not an option on the iPad Pro right now, due to Microsoft not enabling that feature. (To clarify, OneNote on the iPad does not let you record audio. It does let you write notes. I think Microsoft knows that they would lose sales of Surface devices to iPads if they enabled OneNote to function exactly the same on the iPad as it does on Windows.) I also like being able to use the dedicated graphics in the keyboard part for when I play games like Rocksmith that run much better with hardware acceleration.
I have gotten fairly acclimated to Windows 10, and as I said, it runs much more stable and secure than previous versions. I don't have any complaints about stability. And I often have more than 10 different browser tabs open for research purposes, three or four Microsoft apps open at the same time, plus Adobe Acrobat, email, and a few other applications for school or work. I have almost never experienced instability despite only restarting when forced to by software updates.
I still prefer the look and feel of Mac OS. In fact, if Apple offered a MacBook Pro (with dedicated graphics) in the same form factor as the Surface Book, with the same performance as the Apple Pencil, I think they would kill Microsoft's Surface sales. I don't know why Apple refuses to merge the iPad Pro with a MacBook Pro. That's what many professionals would like. Even as I student, it's what I would prefer. I find that the type of workflow I have with my files from school requires a more robust file management system than the iPad allows. I could actually do all of my work for my job on the iPad, it's my school workflow that requires the more granular control of Mac OS or Windows.
Unfortunately, I don't think Apple is willing to swallow it's pride and admit that they were wrong about the touchscreen Mac issue, and so we'll have to wait another couple years before there is a real user accessible filesystem on iOS. Until then I will continue to use my Surface Book and hope that Apple changes its mind.
That's my take for those interested. (Don't worry, I won't be paying attention to the trolls who just want to get upset by anybody who disagrees with something Apple does.)
 
I don't even get what the Apple fans are so upset about. First of all, this thread title makes clear what is being discussed. If one's feelings are so easily bruised, don't open the thread. About 90% of the threads here are unopened by me based on thread title. If you're in here complaining about the Apple "complainers" then you're not in here in an attempt at good faith discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Second of all, I think a large percentage of us don't even WANT to leave Mac. I don't. It makes life more complicated in the short term. However, Apple is forcing me to at least look at Windows options. Even given complaints I've had about Apple, oh, a decade ago, I would have never even looked/window-shopped/tested Windows machines. I'm doing all of that now in anticipation of a platform move 1+ year from now. That is on Apple, not me.
 
If you're in here complaining about the Apple "complainers" then you're not in here in an attempt at good faith discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Precisely - they come in here to lightly troll / attempt to silence the discussion, neither of which is needed.
[doublepost=1552943271][/doublepost]
Second of all, I think a large percentage of us don't even WANT to leave Mac. I don't. It makes life more complicated in the short term. However, Apple is forcing me to at least look at Windows options.

Again - hit the nail on the head...
I have no issue with macOS - the hardware they are putting out is the problem for me.
 
Precisely - they come in here to lightly troll / attempt to silence the discussion, neither of which is needed.
[doublepost=1552943271][/doublepost]

Again - hit the nail on the head...
I have no issue with macOS - the hardware they are putting out is the problem for me.


It appears PC hardware has caught up with Apple, and Apple has dropped the ball on the Mac Pro and MBP keyboard.
I think we all want Apple to release great hardware and software but I think the company has shifted mindset where as longterm users haven't. Computers are simply not the priority these days.

Unfortunately wishing something will happen doesn't mean it will. We all know Apple will release a Mac Pro but then won't update it for a while, and also know there is little chance the MacBook Pro will get fatter again.

Everyday on my iMac Pro I wonder whether I should sell it and get a PC workstation. really it would make virtually 0 difference to my work [all apps I use are available on a PC], but I love the integration and ease of use [I don't tinker anymore like I used to].

I love the aesthetics of all Mac products also which is a big drawcard for me, and also the service I get at the stores.

We are all in the same dilemma really, each with having different priorities in what matters most to them. I am sticking with Apple for the present but I certainly reserve the right to jump ship at any moment. I think one major issue would do it.

Rock and hard place springs to mind :)
 
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It appears PC hardware has caught up with Apple, and Apple has dropped the ball on the Mac Pro and MBP keyboard.
I think we all want Apple to release great hardware and software but I think the company has shifted mindset where as longterm users haven't. Computers are simply not the priority these days.

Unfortunately wishing something will happen doesn't mean it will. We all know Apple will release a Mac Pro but then won't update it for a while, and also know there is little chance the MacBook Pro will get fatter again.

Everyday on my iMac Pro I wonder whether I should sell it and get a PC workstation. really it would make virtually 0 difference to my work [all apps I use are available on a PC], but I love the integration and ease of use [I don't tinker anymore like I used to].

I love the aesthetics of all Mac products also which is a big drawcard for me, and also the service I get at the stores.

We are all in the same dilemma really, each with having different priorities in what matters most to them. I am sticking with Apple for the present but I certainly reserve the right to jump ship at any moment. I think one major issue would do it.

Rock and hard place springs to mind :)
Yeah it is interesting. I decided to go hackintosh simply because I wanted a decent gaming rig upon which I could still write my novels. I dual booted for gaming and thought the same as you. Eventually I decided to replace my iPad Pro with a Surface Pro 2017. Next thing I knew I hadn't booted into Mac for weeks. I found it easier to be in Windows 10 on the Surface Pro and stay in it on the desktop. Same as you I had mostly Windows compatible software anyway. So it was an easy change. Try it on a spare machine, and you might find you really aren't missing all that much from the mac world.

At this rate I might even switch to an android phone again (haven't done that since the Galaxy S2 days)...
 
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