Anyone else abandoning ship?

[CE3]

If they go ARM on the Macs you'll probably get your wish..

Soon it'll be "professional customers are optional"

I think he was being sarcastic.. not sure if you are. Terminal, Finder, and the entire GUI (lol) aren't going anywhere, with or without ARM. Macs and iPads and iPhones are professional tools for many people all over the world each day.. and this isn't changing anytime soon. Yes, there are legitimate complaints and criticisms about Apple (I have a few of my own), but in the meantime people are still getting real work done and creating amazing things with the help of these machines.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

If you want, you can call them "sponsored app suggestions" or "promoted apps", but that doesn't rally change what these things are and how they work. So far, everyone in the windows community calls them ads. Funnily enough, Microsoft also calls them ads, since there is an "advertisement ID" connected to your Windows installation.



This argument is something I hear often and it surprises me over and over again. I would argue that macOS is a much more flexible OS. Windows has caught up a lot on the last few years by offering more built-in services (basic stuff like like PDF viewer, window space management or a OS-wide indexer), but macOS is still unmatched in terms of automation (you have full system-wide scriptability, extension points, customisable services), organisation (file tags, custom file resources, quicklook), management (fully documented standard-compliant unix administrative console), and additional utilities such as incremental backup, imaging or system-wide spell checker. Windows might be easier to mod visually, but thats basically it.

Right, I agree in that sense. I think some of us are just looking at the Apple that is slowly locking more and more down. The iOSification of Mac, etc., We like the Mac you describe from a software perspective. But I think that Mac is slowly going away and will be replaced with more and more lockdown concepts from iOS. Eventually editing KEXTs will go away. Eventually the App Store will be required. These are purely my conjecture. But if we take the Apple of a decade ago to now, I think the trends at a hardware level are pretty disturbing, and at a software level as well.

Also, I think it should be pointed out that most everything you described as far as a wide-open system is also able to be done in windows. I can even add the Linux Subsystem now.

 

[Mendota]

@eltoslightfoot @agaskew @Queen6 @c0ppo and others, since you apparently missed the biggest Windows 10 controversy and continue to pester me to screenshot something that has been documented and criticised on thousands and thousands of blogs, websites etc., here is your screenshot.

It is a freshly installed Windows 10 instance, with all default settings. The screenshot shows the windows application menu. Circled in red are apps that are NOT installed on the machine, yet there is no way to tell this since they appear in the same way as apps that are installed. If you click on one of those items, the app gets installed without your agreement. We are not talking about system-bundled apps like Mail or Calculator — these are app promotions, where the app dev pays MS to literally shove this app down your throat. Approximately 1/3 of items you can see on that screen are ads like these. And yes, you can disable them, if you know exactly where to find the setting and what it is called.

Imagine opening your Mac Application folder and find it filled with random apps from third-party devs you've never seen. If Apple would do anything like this, all you folks would be over it like mad (for a good reason). Microsoft has been doing it for years, there are over 300 million pages about it in google search index and all we get here is a "show us a screenshot". If thats not double standards, I don't know what is.

View attachment 828984

Those are apps that are installed on the system. They are just being user friendly and adding some of the most popular apps. Those are not pop up ads. Windows like Mac is not just used by professionals, it is meant to be family and non tech user friendly... Right click on them and uninstall. Problem solved.
[doublepost=1553791876][/doublepost]

You are missing the point and erecting strawmen.

My point is design compromises when doing convertibles.

I never told anyone what they should and shouldn’t use. In fact, I like many things about the Surface Book.

But it is not a design compromise for what it does. All of your other examples have either no discrete gpu or they are traditional in being together in the same body. The Surface book by separating them allows for something no other manufacture has been able to do as successfully. This separation allows you to run high end gpu intensive software without having everything heat up to max or overheat. This is why they are able to pack in so much gpu power. I use a lot of 3D software and I game. I can to those very well on the Surface Book, but not the Yoga. It doesn't have the power. This is why people like and are impressed by the Book.
[doublepost=1553792073][/doublepost]

There's just no way that these scenarios are the same, sorry.
It's a good point - the Apple/Google connection, but it's not the same. I don't think it's even the same sport.

AFAIK these issues are (or were, as things have improved) far more intrusive on the Home edition, and since this is the "Pro" forum perhaps you folks are somewhat shielded from that.

Take a look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10#Distribution_practices
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10#Privacy_and_data_collection

The telemetry doesn't have any personal information attached to it, and it is done to collect information on how Windows is performing period. This is another "bogyman" propaganda issue. Google does collect personal information and sells it. But since you use Google you want to downplay that and make more of Microsoft telemetry than it is.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I think he was being sarcastic.. not sure if you are.

Yeah - I am just playing also.. (well - mostly)

If they go ARM and gimp the Mac too much, there really will be a shift for many types of Pro users
(Shift away that is..)

 

[jerryk]

You forgot Books.

IMO, with the exception of maybe Chess, Game Center and Photo Booth, all of those applications and tools are useful and/or really nice to have (and many can be uninstalled). Bloatware is one matter, but a completely blank shell of an operating system is not something most Windows or Mac users desire. Many of the tools on your list are core features and a big part of macOS functionality and identity. Are you actually complaining about Terminal being preinstalled on macOS?

No issue with Terminal. Terminal and Time Machine are the only two I use often.

 

[maflynn]

Approximately 1/3 of items you can see on that screen are ads like these. And yes, you can disable them, if you know exactly where to find the setting and what it is called.

You mean like right clicking and selecting uninstall

Imagine opening your Mac Application folder and find it filled with random apps from third-party devs you've never seen.

You mean crap like chess, and garageband. The volume of space garage band takes is mind boggling and a complete waste.

If Apple would do anything like this

*cough* they do *cough*

 

[SDColorado]

You forgot Books.

IMO, with the exception of maybe Chess, Game Center and Photo Booth, all of those applications and tools are useful and/or really nice to have (and many can be uninstalled). Bloatware is one matter, but a completely blank shell of an operating system is not something most Windows or Mac users desire. Many of the tools on your list are core features and a big part of macOS functionality and identity. Are you actually complaining about Terminal being preinstalled on macOS?

I would add GarageBand and iMovie to that list. I would imagine that there are more folks who don't use them than do. Just make them a free download from the App Store for those who do want them.

Speaking of the App Store, I personally find the way it defaults to "Discover" with all of the "Featured Apps" and the politics that go with being "featured" to be as annoying as the case of MS's suggested Apps. Perhaps more so, because in typical Apple fashion, they don't seem to have given us the option to disable the behavior or prioritize the tabs, whereas the MS app suggestions can be turned off.

 

[leman]

*cough* they do *cough*

They are installing unsolicited third-party apps from App Store? Really? Can you provide a screenshot?

 

[booksbooks]

Those are apps that are installed on the system. They are just being user friendly and adding some of the most popular apps. Those are not pop up ads. Windows like Mac is not just used by professionals, it is meant to be family and non tech user friendly... Right click on them and uninstall. Problem solved.
[doublepost=1553791876][/doublepost]

But it is not a design compromise for what it does. All of your other examples have either no discrete gpu or they are traditional in being together in the same body. The Surface book by separating them allows for something no other manufacture has been able to do as successfully. This separation allows you to run high end gpu intensive software without having everything heat up to max or overheat. This is why they are able to pack in so much gpu power. I use a lot of 3D software and I game. I can to those very well on the Surface Book, but not the Yoga. It doesn't have the power. This is why people like and are impressed by the Book.
[doublepost=1553792073][/doublepost]

The telemetry doesn't have any personal information attached to it, and it is done to collect information on how Windows is performing period. This is another "bogyman" propaganda issue. Google does collect personal information and sells it. But since you use Google you want to downplay that and make more of Microsoft telemetry than it is.

Design compromises already pointed out. No argument. You just now want to keep arguing over strawmen, etc.

 

[leman]

You mean like right clicking and selecting uninstall

Yes, until they install or offer some other stuff. I've been running that Windows virtual machine for a couple of hours now and two other new things appeared instead of some crappy games I've removed...

 

[maflynn]

They are installing unsolicited third-party apps from App Store? Really? Can you provide a screenshot?

They are installing unsolicited apps that I do not want?
[doublepost=1553795431][/doublepost]

Yes, until they install or offer some other stuff. I've been running that Windows virtual machine for a couple of hours now and two other new things appeared instead of some crappy games I've removed...

What two other things? I've not had any apps suddenly install w/o my approval or action.

I will say both platforms can have apps that are preinstalled and in both cases are fairly easy to clean up, though it takes more work on macos, for example, garage band buries a lot of files in the /Library folder but overall its easy enough to find and remove. I prefer right clicking and selecting remove though.

 

[SDColorado]

Yes, until they install or offer some other stuff. I've been running that Windows virtual machine for a couple of hours now and two other new things appeared instead of some crappy games I've removed...

That behavior can be stopped by simply going into Settings --> Apps, Apps and Features and selecting Turn Off App Recommendations under Installing Apps.

 

[leman]

They are installing unsolicited apps that I do not want?

When? If you are talking about stuff like GarageBand or Chess, they have been part of the OS distribution for over a decade. Is Netflix or Photoshop now part of default Windows installation?

I kind of feel that this discussion is getting a bit out of hand. What we were discussing is the fact that Windows 10 shows you unsolicited app ads in its start menu, sometimes going as far as to pretend that these apps are already installed when in fact they are not. And I think that we are kind of at the end of this topic since we can now agree that yes, Windows 10 shows you app adds in its start menu (@SDColorado I am perfectly aware that it can be disabled, thats not the point. The point is that it exists in the first place, what some users here were doubting).

Now, if you wish to argue that this kind of behaviour is user-friendly or that it's the same as distributing a set of in-house developed apps with the system, thats your prerogative. Unfortunately, it's not really a discussion I am interested in. When I open my app launcher, I only want to see stuff that I put there or that came with the system. And if Apple at some points starts offering me to buy Photoshop when I look for a script called "photo", I'd personally write Tim Cook and tell him I'm moving to *** Linux.

 

[Queen6]

There's just no way that these scenarios are the same, sorry.
It's a good point - the Apple/Google connection, but it's not the same. I don't think it's even the same sport.

AFAIK these issues are (or were, as things have improved) far more intrusive on the Home edition, and since this is the "Pro" forum perhaps you folks are somewhat shielded from that.

Take a look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10#Distribution_practices
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10#Privacy_and_data_collection

TBH I think it's related to Home, Pro, Enterprise and regionally, as although purely anecdotal there does appear to be a large disparity in peoples experience. Most of mine are on W10 Pro, although I've not observed any heavy handedness with the Home edition, admittedly I know how to set up the OS and what I want turned on and off.

I do strongly dislike the data harvesting, equally to shut all off results in a lot of compromise regardless of OS, therefore I tend to manage as much within reason myself and limit the flow.

Q-6

 

[SDColorado]

And I think that we are kind of at the end of this topic since we can now agree that yes, Windows 10 shows you app adds in its start menu (@SDColorado I am perfectly aware that it can be disabled, thats not the point. The point is that it exists in the first place, what some users here were doubting).

I believe what people were doubting, was that in your original statement on it you said: " Ads literally everywhere is the first thing I notice every single time when I have to work with WIN10 for dev purposes...haven't seen any pop-ups, but my menus are littered with them." I think there was an expectation to see literal adsn in the screenshot, not just app suggestions.

Prior to purchasing a Surface Pro late summer 2017, I hadn't touched a Windows machine since the XP days. I figured out how to turn that off within minutes of setup while going through the menus.

 

[Howard2k]

I believe what people were doubting, was that in your original statement on it you said: " Ads literally everywhere is the first thing I notice every single time when I have to work with WIN10 for dev purposes...haven't seen any pop-ups, but my menus are littered with them." I think there was an expectation to see literal adsn in the screenshot, not just app suggestions.

Prior to purchasing a Surface Pro late summer 2017, I hadn't touched a Windows machine since the XP days. I figured out how to turn that off within minutes of setup while going through the menus.

Would you describe yourself as geeky? Or would you say you were super geeky?

My GF bought a cheap HP laptop and I had to spend a bunch of time cleaning off all the spurious crap they put on there. It was actually pretty damn usable when done, but fresh out of the box it was hammering the CPU and memory. Pretty disgraceful. She uses Windows for work purposes every day, but she's not comfortable doing this sort of clean up, and I don't think most people are.

I'm not suggesting that this is representative of ALL Windows machines, but I think it's more common with the bottom end stuff.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Would you describe yourself as geeky? Or would you say you were super geeky?

My GF bought a cheap HP laptop and I had to spend a bunch of time cleaning off all the spurious crap they put on there. It was actually pretty damn usable when done, but fresh out of the box it was hammering the CPU and memory. Pretty disgraceful. She uses Windows for work purposes every day, but she's not comfortable doing this sort of clean up, and I don't think most people are.

I'm not suggesting that this is representative of ALL Windows machines, but I think it's more common with the bottom end stuff.

Actually that hammering the CPU and memory is most likely indexing. It subsides pretty quickly.

 

[Mendota]

Design compromises already pointed out. No argument. You just now want to keep arguing over strawmen, etc.

You are the only one calling them design compromises, so yes I am calling you out on it. I'm sorry but your word alone does not a fact make.

 

[Queen6]

I would add GarageBand and iMovie to that list. I would imagine that there are more folks who don't use them than do. Just make them a free download from the App Store for those who do want them.

Speaking of the App Store, I personally find the way it defaults to "Discover" with all of the "Featured Apps" and the politics that go with being "featured" to be as annoying as the case of MS's suggested Apps. Perhaps more so, because in typical Apple fashion, they don't seem to have given us the option to disable the behavior or prioritize the tabs, whereas the MS app suggestions can be turned off.

That's exactly what I want for all OS, the base OS nothing more. Then I can choose what I want on "my" systems, not what somebody else thinks I should have or want...

Mac's I used to do internet recovery from new by default as I found that the OS was less cluttered by the likes of GarageBand. Same as W10 great if you want it, if not it's just another annoyance to remove. Wish these companies would focus on the users more and not themselves.

TBH I'd switch to Linux if all software was supported...

Q-6

 

[eltoslightfoot]

That's exactly what I want for all OS, the base OS nothing more. Then I can choose what I want on "my" systems, not what somebody else thinks I should have or want...

Mac's I used to do internet recovery from new by default as I found that the OS was less cluttered by the likes of GarageBand. Same as W10 great if you want it, if not it's just another annoyance to remove. Wish these companies would focus on the users more and not themselves.

TBH I'd switch to Linux if all software was supported...

Q-6

Me too. Lord help me if someone made a decent Linux phone. It's just the software dang it.

 

[Mendota]

When? If you are talking about stuff like GarageBand or Chess, they have been part of the OS distribution for over a decade. Is Netflix or Photoshop now part of default Windows installation?

I kind of feel that this discussion is getting a bit out of hand. What we were discussing is the fact that Windows 10 shows you unsolicited app ads in its start menu, sometimes going as far as to pretend that these apps are already installed when in fact they are not. And I think that we are kind of at the end of this topic since we can now agree that yes, Windows 10 shows you app adds in its start menu (@SDColorado I am perfectly aware that it can be disabled, thats not the point. The point is that it exists in the first place, what some users here were doubting).

Now, if you wish to argue that this kind of behaviour is user-friendly or that it's the same as distributing a set of in-house developed apps with the system, thats your prerogative. Unfortunately, it's not really a discussion I am interested in. When I open my app launcher, I only want to see stuff that I put there or that came with the system. And if Apple at some points starts offering me to buy Photoshop when I look for a script called "photo", I'd personally write Tim Cook and tell him I'm moving to *** Linux.

Well I don't know how to tell you this... but you are not everyone. There are actually people who appreciate these apps and the knowledge that the Microsoft store exist, something that is not obvious to everyone. Apple has had an app store for quite awhile and most Apple users are aware of it. Windows store at the launch of Windows 10 was new. I personally know home users who were unaware of a Netflix app until they found it on the start menu. They had been using the browser app until they upgraded and discovered the app. They then went to the store and found other things.

Apple does a lot of their software and puts it onto the system for the same reason. I don't have an issue with either. Apple has fewer third party venders so they are providing things for the Mac experience themselves. Great I like Garage Band and I like Netflix. Why do you have to be so negative to Microsoft? What is your point? This thread isn't about people being unhappy with MacOS, it is about the shoddy hardware issues.

 

[Howard2k]

Actually that hammering the CPU and memory is most likely indexing. It subsides pretty quickly.

Nope, this was junk. I verified in using Task Manager and then could target the specific garbage and remove it.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Would you describe yourself as geeky? Or would you say you were super geeky?

My GF bought a cheap HP laptop and I had to spend a bunch of time cleaning off all the spurious crap they put on there. It was actually pretty damn usable when done, but fresh out of the box it was hammering the CPU and memory. Pretty disgraceful. She uses Windows for work purposes every day, but she's not comfortable doing this sort of clean up, and I don't think most people are.

I'm not suggesting that this is representative of ALL Windows machines, but I think it's more common with the bottom end stuff.

This has nothing to do with Windows as an OS per se.
It is simply the OEMs (Dell, HP etc.) installing a lot of extra junk. Lenovo tends to be a little more moderate. Microsoft only installs a clean 'signature' Windows on it's Surface line.
Also the first day or so a lot of housekeeping, indexing and updating takes place, slowing down the machine.

This is different from Apple. Apple is the only brand providing the hardware and the software.
In PC land, Microsoft provides Windows and the OEMs do with the hardware and Windows what they want. More choice and less restrictions but also less handholding than with Apple.

Maybe it is 'geeky' but when I get a new Dell or HP one of the first things I do is reinstall Windows with a clean copy from the official MS site.

 

[Queen6]

You are the only one calling them design compromises, so yes I am calling you out on it. I'm sorry but your word alone does not a fact make.

MBP & Surface Book very different beasts, if you have no need of what Surface Book can offer then likely you wont get the benefit's it offers. I used a 1st Gen 13" for two years professionally, and yes it was bulkier than the MBP, equally it offers features the MBP does not nor was ever designed to have.

Should my professional and / or mobility needs change I would definitely consider another Surface Book. Undeniably they are well thought out and they do deliver, I actually think the Surface Book is s great exercise in industrial design that works, albeit to the cost of the aesthetic and to some extents portability, being very much function over form...

Q-6

 

[Howard2k]

Maybe it is 'geeky' but when I get a new Dell or HP one of the first things I do is reinstall Windows with a clean copy from the official MS site.

There's no "maybe", let's not kid ourselves.