Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Nah, that's not my style. Bummers on the problems man :(

It is what it is, not going to lose any sleep over it, getting too old for that!

The reality is that the Mac Mini is great for my productive side and for everything else I am fine with Windows. These days I am always at a desk when I need to do server and web work so no actual need to have a MBP for mobility. A preference for sure, but not a need.

A windows laptop will be an interesting change.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6
Well, I said some pages back I was out of this thread as it was just a revolving conversation going nowhere. But, I came back to it with good reason.

I bought a new 2018 13" MBP a couple of months ago, today it went back to the Apple Store, spacebar was starting to miss maybe one out of every 5/6 presses, then the r key went a couple of days ago and at the same time, the t key was repeating itself.

I kicked up so much **** in the store when all they offered was to send it away for repair that the manager agreed on a refund after I made it abundantly clear I wasn't some amateur when it came to Apple products or the keyboard issues.

So I am down to my Mac Mini which I am really happy with and in truth the MBP was simply to allow occasional portability, not a great loss although that is not the point.

Not really that bothered, as I have said all along until it happens to me, I am not going to worry about it. Now it has and I got my money back, so will look for a Windows laptop and will need some recommendations from you all :)

Just thought I would give @Queen6 and @maflynn the chance to say I told you so :p

Sorry for your grief, I've owned Mac's for over 20 years, it's such a shame that Apple has sold out in this fashion. Once Apple did truly design & produce the very best it possibly could. Today Apple merely produces what can make the most margin to appease the stockholder.

Really saddens me to see the marque fall so low :(:(:( I don't joke when I say I've a $650 2in1 that will put any portable Mac to shame in regards to features and usability, nor does that give any pleasure, quite the opposite...

Q-6
[doublepost=1557291805][/doublepost]
Well, complaints aren't stopping:


Good as that's exactly what we need for Apple to get off it's arse and actually do something. 2016 design is without any doubts the worst MBP ever produced.

Maybe Tim & Co should get back to Apple's roots and stop being weak minded sycophant's. They've made their money, so stop ****ing up the Mac. Fix the quality, fix the line up so it makes sense, not just variations of the Air, fix the pricing or actually offer value, professionals will happily pay the asking price if that's in place, today that's very far away.

Reason we're 100% on W10 is solely due to Apple's incompetence. Thing is Apple doesn't care how many Mac's it sells now, it only cares that it meets revenue targets for the Mac, for that someone is paying...

Q-6
 
Last edited:
I am gravitating towards a surface book, my shortlist:

1. Surface book
2. Surface Laptop
3. Dell XPS 13
4. Razer Blade Stealth

In honesty 4 is out, every site I look at that has customer reviews, the blade is poorly rated.

I have a Dell XPS 15 and a 15" Surface Book here. The SB is streets ahead for build quality, but the fact it doesn't fold flat drives my OCD nuts. Not interested in Thinkpads?
 
Feels pretty wild to log into my account here for the first time in nearly a decade. (Check out that sweet setup listed in my sig. The good ol' days...)

In 2008, I made this (embarrassingly overdramatic) thread complaining about how the white polycarbonate MacBook I'd bought after graduating high school had been plagued by issues. After someone suggested emailing sjobs@apple.com, I did.

I never heard back from Steve himself, but I did hear back from an executive at Apple Canada, who hooked me up with one of the first unibody MacBooks when they were released just a few weeks later.

Since then, the only computer I've used every day has been a MacBook, and I've been lucky enough to have the opportunity to use pretty much every MacBook/Pro/Air design released since then in my work as a content strategist and copywriter. Like many others, I believe that the 2015 MacBook Pro is the best laptop Apple has ever made — and for a time, the best laptop any company had ever made.

But times have changed. It's fair to say that not only does the current MacBook lineup falls far short of the high standards sets by its predecessors, it represents a poor value compared to other devices in the marketplace at pretty much every price point.

And that's all before you factor in that the keyboards are literally defective.

---

I had the (never truly reliable) keyboard in my touchbar MBP replaced when the T key suddenly stopped responding one day, and then just kinda... fell off. But the replacement keyboard that Apple installed frequently missed inputs that I was certain I had made. My employer let me go back to using a 2015 MBP, which I quickly fell in love with all over again.

When I recently switched roles to join a startup around the time the new MacBook Air was released, and was asked to choose a new laptop from Apple (since we have a business account), I took a leap of faith hoping that the new silicon membrane would actually resolve the issue — even though Apple never said it was supposed to do that, it's totally supposed to do that.

As you all know, it doesn't do that. In fact, my experience with the 2018 MacBook Air keyboard was far worse than with the pre-membrane Pro. Within a few months, I was having missed and/or duplicate inputs from many keys, in particularly commonly hit keys like the spacebar and vowel keys. The worst part was that my CMD key only worked about 75% of the time, which quickly began to drive me into a state of madness. Unshaky logged thousands of blocked duplicate keypresses before I stopped checking the counter, but it unfortunately cannot help with inputs that the keyboard misses entirely.

I took it to my local Apple Store and admitted to the Genius I was nervous as it's difficult to replicate intermittent issues in front of someone, but he readily acknowledged the keyboard issues in the MacBook line and assured me I would get a new "top case", which as I'm sure most of you know, is the chimera of keyboard, battery and upper part of the chassis fused together as to be nearly inseparable and irreparable. To call the top case swap that Apple performs in the face of these keyboard issues a repair is too generous — it's more of a refurbishing.

While the Genius tried to sell us on the Joint Venture program, which allows businesses to pay a recurring fee for the privilege of receiving a loaner laptop from Apple while they work on your machine, we opted to simply buy a new MacBook Air with the intention of returning it within the 14-day window.

But out of the box, the new Air was skipping inputs. Apple would reach out to me a few days later to tell me that they couldn't replicate the issue, and after I refused their request to try formatting the OS to see if it was a software-related issue (!?), they offered to switch the key cap and "give it a good cleaning."

I think you all can guess where this is going. My squeaky-clean keyboard performs no more impressively then my presumably crumb-laden one. I still press CMD+C five times out of paranoia. I frequently have to rewrite sentences in my work, and even end up missing some mistakes that I don't spot till later. I feel as if I am losing many hours of productivity daily, fighting against a machine that's designed to help me get stuff done.

I spend all day typing, and I type pretty hard. Yet my pre-butterfly MacBooks rarely buckled under the pressure. In the rare instance that something was stuck under a key, and the one time I had one of the scissor switches break, you could just... take them off and put them back on.

How does this happen? How does Apple knowingly ship a defective keyboard design for three years, that they themselves cannot repair or even properly clean? Including in a major new flagship product just released that Tim Cook blames Intel for not being able to meet demand for? A product that never should have been released in the state that it was, and should be recalled for the state that it's in?

Apple's "repairs" cannot fix these keyboard issues, and so it's pointless to continue the theatre of bringing it in to have one defective component replaced with another that's destined to fail, if it works functionally to begin with. That doesn't include the productivity cost of making multiple trips to the Apple Store and being without your machine.

Like many of you, I'd had enough. And uh, also seemingly like many of you, I bought a ThinkPad instead.

And I love it.


57370755-590757458074832-1242186536610255952-n.jpg


---

While I'm happy to see some others here were able to receive refunds from Apple out of the return period, we weren't so lucky. After I received my ThinkPad, we returned our local Apple Store to try to return the 2018 MacBook Air for good. While they were willing to admit fault for not doing the top case replacement we were promised the first time around, the only solution they were willing to offer was to do the replacement this time.

Our requests for a refund or even a credit on our business account were repeatedly rebuffed, even as we made it clear that we had no intention of using this machine ever again. The manager did mention that they would be willing to buy it from us for about half of what we paid, but as the Genius next to them helpfully pointed out, we could probably get more selling it privately.

I switched from iOS to Android last summer after using the former for nearly as long as I'd been using MacBooks. Now it's hard to imagine a future where I return to using Apple products, something I find myself surprised to say. When Steve Jobs passed, I was one of those who legitimately believed the company would be fine without him; that his ideas had woven themselves into the cultural DNA of Apple.

But this keyboard situation is pretty much the embodiment of "Steve Jobs would have never let this happen."
 
Last edited:
Feels pretty wild to log into my account here for the first time in nearly a decade.

Welcome back :)

Unfortunately, your story is becoming more common than the "I love Apple products as they never let me down" alternative.

What I am sure Apple realise is that they are killing the loyal clients who have supported them not over a few years, but decades. I feel certain that the next MacBook line up will be a complete redesign to get away from the thin, unreliable models of the last three generations of keyboard, clearly too late for many.
 
Feels pretty wild to log into my account here for the first time in nearly a decade. (Check out that sweet setup listed in my sig. The good ol' days...)

In 2008, I made this (embarrassingly overdramatic) thread complaining about how the white polycarbonate MacBook I'd bought after graduating high school had been plagued by issues. After someone suggested emailing sjobs@apple.com, I did.

I never heard back from Steve himself, but I did hear back from an executive at Apple Canada, who hooked me up with one of the first unibody MacBooks when they were released just a few weeks later.

Since then, the only computer I've used every day has been a MacBook, and I've been lucky enough to have the opportunity to use pretty much every MacBook/Pro/Air design released since then in my work as a content strategist and copywriter. Like many others, I believe that the 2015 MacBook Pro is the best laptop Apple has ever made — and for a time, the best laptop any company had ever made.

But times have changed. It's fair to say that not only does the current MacBook lineup falls far short of the high standards sets by its predecessors, it represents a poor value compared to other devices in the marketplace at pretty much every price point.

And that's all before you factor in that the keyboards are literally defective.

---

I had the (never truly) keyboard in my touchbar MBP replaced when the T key suddenly stopped responding one day, and then just kinda... fell off. But the replacement keyboard that Apple installed frequently missed inputs that I was certain I had made. My employer let me go back to using a 2015 MBP, which I quickly fell in love with all over again.

When I recently switched roles to join a startup around the time the new MacBook Air was released, and was asked to choose a new laptop from Apple (since we have a business account), I took a leap of faith hoping that the new silicon membrane would actually resolve the issue — even though Apple never said it was supposed to do that, even though actually it's totally supposed to do that).

As you all know, it doesn't do that. In fact, my experience with the 2018 MacBook Air keyboard was far worse than with the pre-membrane Pro. Within a few months, I was having missed and/or duplicate inputs from many keys, in particularly commonly hit keys like the spacebar and vowel keys. The worst part was that my CMD key only worked about 75% of the time, which quickly began to drive me into a state of madness. Unshaky logged thousands of blocked duplicate keypresses before I stopped checking the counter, but it unfortunately cannot help with inputs that the keyboard misses entirely.

I took it to my local Apple Store and admitted to the Genius I was nervous as it's difficult to replicate intermittent issues in front of someone, but he readily acknowledged the keyboard issues in the MacBook line and assured me I would get a new "top case", which as I'm sure most of you know, is the chimera of keyboard, battery and upper part of the chassis fused together as to be nearly inseparable and irreparable. To call the top case swap that Apple performs in the face of these keyboard issues a repair is too generous — it's more of a refurbishing.

While the Genius tried to sell us on the Joint Venture program, which allows businesses to pay a recurring fee for the privilege of receiving a loaner laptop from Apple while they work on your machine, we opted to simply buy a new MacBook Air with the intention of returning it within the 14-day window.

But out of the box, the new Air was skipping inputs. Apple would reach out to me a few days later to tell me that they couldn't replicate the issue, and after I refused their request to try formatting the OS to see if it was a software-related issue (!?), they offered to switch the key cap and "give it a good cleaning."

I think you all can guess where this is going. My squeaky-clean keyboard performs no more impressively then my presumably crumb-laden one. I still press CMD+C five times out of paranoia. I frequently have to rewrite sentences in my work, and even end up missing some mistakes that I don't spot till later. I feel as if I am losing many hours of productivity daily, fighting against a machine that's designed to help me get stuff done.

I spend all day typing, and I type pretty hard. Yet my pre-butterfly MacBooks rarely buckled under the pressure. In the rare instance that something was stuck under a key, and the one time I had one of the scissor switches break, you could just... take them off and put them back on.

How does this happen? How does Apple knowingly ship a defective keyboard design for three years, that they themselves cannot repair or even properly clean? Including in a major new flagship product just released that Tim Cook blames Intel for not being able to meet demand for? A product that never should have been released in the state that it was, and should be recalled for the state that it's in?

Apple's "repairs" cannot fix these keyboard issues, and so it's pointless to continue the theatre of bringing it in to have one defective component replaced with another that's destined to fail, if it works functionally to begin with. That doesn't include the productivity cost of making multiple trips to the Apple Store and being without your machine.

Like many of you, I'd had enough. And uh, also seemingly like many of you, I bought a ThinkPad instead.

And I love it.


57370755-590757458074832-1242186536610255952-n.jpg


---

While I'm happy to see some others here were able to receive refunds from Apple out of the return period, we weren't so lucky. After I received my ThinkPad, we returned our local Apple Store to try to return the 2018 MacBook Air for good. While they were willing to admit fault for not doing the top case replacement we were promised the first time around, the only solution they were willing to offer was to do the replacement this time.

Our requests for a refund or even a credit on our business account were repeatedly rebuffed, even as we made it clear that we had no intention of using this machine ever again. The manager did mention that they would be willing to buy it from us for about half of what we paid, but as the Genius next to them helpfully pointed out, we could probably get more selling it privately.

I switched from iOS to Android last summer after using the former for nearly as long as I'd been using MacBooks. Now it's hard to imagine a future where I return to using Apple products, something I find myself surprised to say. When Steve Jobs passed, I was one of those who legitimately believed the company would be fine without him; that his ideas had woven themselves into the cultural DNA of Apple.

But this keyboard situation is pretty much the embodiment of "Steve Jobs would have never let this happen."

Sadly the saga continues, yet Apple seems completely unconcerned. Just how many more need to drop the platform before Apple's execs wake up...

Q-6
[doublepost=1557307450][/doublepost]
Welcome back :)

Unfortunately, your story is becoming more common than the "I love Apple products as they never let me down" alternative.

What I am sure Apple realise is that they are killing the loyal clients who have supported them not over a few years, but decades. I feel certain that the next MacBook line up will be a complete redesign to get away from the thin, unreliable models of the last three generations of keyboard, clearly too late for many.

Currently Apple doesn't offer a single computer I'd opt for privately or professionally, five years ago 100% Mac. By the time Apple wakes up it will be far too late as ever fewer will be interested in investing in a fading platform. Frankly the Mac doesn't deserve the liability Apple is becoming...

Q-6
 
Last edited:
Honestly a trip down to the repair store is getting out of hand at this point... It's starting to annoy me a lot. ( 3 times already)

Either way I'm thinking to invest in a Mac mini to have at work at this point and work from cloud or a Remote Desktop to the laptop at home or something

I really don't wanna leave MacOS and I hope the next redesign fixes this once and for all.
 
Last edited:
I'm thinking to invest in a Mac mini

The Mac Mini is now all I have and to be fair it meets all my demands based on what I need macOS for. At least I can upgrade the ram and add more storage via TB3 if required. Having the magic keyboard with number pad is also a far better experience than the MBP keyboard.

So, for now, I am happy with that in addition to having a PC which I have always had and currently looking to replace the returned MBP with a windows based laptop for mobility.
 
  • Like
Reactions: agaskew
The Mac Mini is now all I have
The Mac Mini is a good computer, I have fond memories of using that machine. I also have a Mac in the house, though I don't use it. I have an iMac, and its mostly dedicated for my kids homework and youtube. I sometimes use it to backup my iPhone but that's about it.

I actually prefer windows at this point, I find it provides a better experience in all seriousness.
 
I actually prefer windows at this point, I find it provides a better experience in all seriousness.

It was the changes to MacOS that pushed me back to W10, before the new MBP design. I certainly found it to be a fair bit faster/snappier than MacOS on the 2014 rMBP in Bootcamp. Perhaps MacOS performance has improved since then, I don't know. But I really hope these hardware issues get addressed, variety and competition is good.
 
I certainly found it to be a fair bit faster/snappier than MacOS
For me, I found office to be faster, though office apps are not known to be extremely slow, but what I do enjoy is the rendering of text in excel and word. I found excel on the mac, I had to zoom to 125% at least for something normal to see, where as on windows its perfect. It didn't matter if I was using a mac mini, iMac or my MBP, I always had to zoom.

Lightroom for me, seems a bit more responsive in windows as well.
 
Sorry for your grief, I've owned Mac's for over 20 years, it's such a shame that Apple has sold out in this fashion. Once Apple did truly design & produce the very best it possibly could. Today Apple merely produces what can make the most margin to appease the stockholder.

Really saddens me to see the marque fall so low :(:(:( I don't joke when I say I've a $650 2in1 that will put any portable Mac to shame in regards to features and usability, nor does that give any pleasure, quite the opposite...

Q-6
[doublepost=1557291805][/doublepost]

Good as that's exactly what we need for Apple to get off it's arse and actually do something. 2016 design is without any doubts the worst MBP ever produced.

Maybe Tim & Co should get back to Apple's roots and stop being weak minded sycophant's. They've made their money, so stop ****ing up the Mac. Fix the quality, fix the line up so it makes sense, not just variations of the Air, fix the pricing or actually offer value, professionals will happily pay the asking price if that's in place, today that's very far away.

Reason we're 100% on W10 is solely due to Apple's incompetence. Thing is Apple doesn't care how many Mac's it sells now, it only cares that it meets revenue targets for the Mac, for that someone is paying...

Q-6

Clearly they should hire you to advise them. You should offer.
 
But this keyboard situation is pretty much the embodiment of "Steve Jobs would have never let this happen."

Absolutely.
[doublepost=1557336018][/doublepost]
I really don't wanna leave MacOS and I hope the next redesign fixes this once and for all.

Honestly, Apple may be solving that for us by having MacOS leave us in favor of whatever locked down iOS/macOS combo they settle into. I don't think that will happen completely this year, but 2-3 years from now I fully expect it.

If they gut enough of it, macOS simply won't mean or do what it used to and then they'll be basically nothing to hold us around anymore.
 
Honestly, Apple may be solving that for us by having MacOS leave us in favor of whatever locked down iOS/macOS combo they settle into.

If they do that I take that as proof that they have lost their collective minds. I'm also rather positive this would backfire pretty soon because the picture you are painting here is the worst imaginable from a customers viewpoint. Now, as we all know Apple likes to solder and lock everything down to be able to excessively charge for hardware upgrades. But as badly as this works right now, locking down and therefore literally destroying the best operating system existing strikes me as committing intentional suicide.
While Apple's money is focusing on services its questionable if this strategy of ignoring the hardware business really is well thought through - because in the end who's gonna use those services? Android users? I don't think so.
 
If they do that I take that as proof that they have lost their collective minds. I'm also rather positive this would backfire pretty soon because the picture you are painting here is the worst imaginable from a customers viewpoint. Now, as we all know Apple likes to solder and lock everything down to be able to excessively charge for hardware upgrades. But as badly as this works right now, locking down and therefore literally destroying the best operating system existing strikes me as committing intentional suicide.
While Apple's money is focusing on services its questionable if this strategy of ignoring the hardware business really is well thought through - because in the end who's gonna use those services? Android users? I don't think so.

Thing is we are very much the minority here and Apple wants simplicity including it's users, with everything neatly locked in & locked down...

Q-6
 
Thing is we are very much the minority here and Apple wants simplicity including it's users, with everything neatly locked in & locked down...

Q-6
I find that hard to believe, to be honest. We'll see... if it turns out this is actually the path Apple choses, I'm out. And so are the people I brought to the platform, which are plenty
 
I find that hard to believe, to be honest. We'll see... if it turns out this is actually the path Apple choses, I'm out. And so are the people I brought to the platform, which are plenty

Watch out my friend the whiplash may be hard here.

Apple has gone full main stream and the only developers they care about are the ones making iOS apps… If they keep expanding iOS and they finally make it so you can build iOS app on iOS, the mac is done

I am not rooting for that and I really do want to be wrong, but everything about their direction just indicates a very different apple from the one we knew and loved for so many years
 
  • Like
Reactions: agaskew
I understand their desire to sell more services, it's a very lucrative market, but, the only way it makes sense to maximize that by doing what they never wanted to do. Sacrifice margin to grow market share.

But, when you see the future as iPhone/iPad then it starts to make more sense where they are going. In years to come, the laptop market, Apple's market, will fade in favour of the iPad in whatever form that takes.

The average consumer will have the choice of the iPhone and iPad in the sensible price range with an IoS/macOS hybrid OS. Which is where the services will be targetted. Everything will be locked down tighter than it is today. Everything you do on the devices will require some payment, ending up with it being cheaper to pay Apple a monthly subscription to access all areas.

Services, mass market, portable devices excl laptops. That is where they are going.
 
For all the faults the MBP has, at least when it does get sent away for repair, you do end up with your original device back.

My experience in sending a £2k Surface Book back for a simple repair, was to end up with a tatty refurb, minus the nice original box and packaging I had returned it to M$ in.

It was heartbreaking to receive a tatty refurb with marks on it as a replacement for my 5-week old pristine machine I wanted repairing.

I kicked up a fuss. Got a complete refund. And very reluctant to touch M$ again. Pity as it was a nice machine, apart from effin Windows updates every time you turn it on.

A Dell XPS 15 and an older MBP 2015 are the current weapons of (forced) choice.
 
Everything you do on the devices will require some payment, ending up with it being cheaper to pay Apple a monthly subscription to access all areas.

Services, mass market, portable devices excl laptops. That is where they are going.

*Shudder* What potential customer plays along with this? The iPad Pro is a great device... but if you are correct I wonder who's gonna pay for all these subscriptions? Certainly not me. Noone I know will, for sure.

Watch out my friend the whiplash may be hard here.

Apple has gone full main stream and the only developers they care about are the ones making iOS apps… If they keep expanding iOS and they finally make it so you can build iOS app on iOS, the mac is done

I am not rooting for that and I really do want to be wrong, but everything about their direction just indicates a very different apple from the one we knew and loved for so many years

Still... strange. The Mac business is still a billion dollar business. And they could easily triple revenue if only they tried with sane products. So what's the point in ignoring it? Even though other segments may be bigger in revenue numbers, why not take the money and run? It'd be so easy having macOS at their hands.
Xcode / Swift 5 are great tools; Swift in particular is a pretty awesome language. Why develop all this just to abandon the Mac?
What's more: if Apple has no desire in pursuing the Mac business, why not just release Xcode and tools for Windows (or, dare I say, Linux) and call it a day? There is no discernible long term strategy here...
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.