Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
...my post was mostly targeted around his claim that MacBook Pro 2011 was the "last real laptop" - which I don't get.

The 2011 MBP variants were the last real laptops from Apple as they allowed maintenance and common upgrades based on traditional laptop expectations. RAM, HDD, Optical Drive, etc were all user accessible/replaceable with standard parts and ports. After 2011, the main volume format was given a proprietary interface and format, no space was allowed for an optical bay, and RAM was then soldered in and no longer replaceable/serviceable. If the memory goes bad in a MBP from 2012 forward, you have to throw the whole thing away, or pay for expensive repair work from Apple, and only Apple. If you decide you need more main volume space(bigger SSD) at any point after purchase, you have to either buy another MBP or go on eBay and hunt for an OEM part that is not available for sale from consumer oriented vendors.

Basically after Tim Cook fully took over, the MBP was turned into an appliance.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: otternonsense
You don't think the introduction of Metal is helping to bring back game developers?


In short - no. If they wanted to bring back game developers and that was their goal, they would've improved OpenGL support or used Vulkan instead. In fact, Metal is doing quite the opposite, as it pushed Apple to abandon further OpenGL support.

Long answer: no, because Metal is a proprietary API meant to be used only on Apple devices, which is fine on iOS where there is a huge market, but it really doesn't make much sense on Macs. It requires a lot of work for a niche segment of the market. It would be a lot different if there were many more Macs out there, but for gaming and game developers, it's really about quantity. There are no Mac-only games, and the only reason why there are any Mac games at all is because the cost of porting is usually low, so - why not? Maybe some extra dollars on the side. It's different with apps for designers or modelers and such - they are much more expensive, used by a smaller group of people that pay much more (Zbrush doesn't need to sell hundreds of millions of copies to be profitable with it's $800 price tag). And some of these people traditionally prefer Macs (for example, designers, photographers, certain illustrators, etc.) so that's where the market is, even if there are far less Macs than PCs out there. But for games - the only way you can have them on the Mac is to make porting so easy (in other words: cheap) that it's not a problem for developers to do it, alongside their main target: the PC or consoles.

So, why doesn't Metal help? Well, because you need to code specifically for Metal. If you code for OpenGL (and you do, if you want your game to run on Playstation), you can use it on PS, Windows and Macs, so that's not a problem - huge market and Mac is riding along. But with Metal you can only use for Mac computers. And it's not like you can just say "hey programmer, change our game from DirectX to Metal!" - you have to write your engine from the scratch to support it. And even if you use Unreal, for example, that supports Metal, you have to plan your game to use it from the start. It's a bit complicated to explain, but lets just say that it takes a lot of work - which costs money. This wouldn't be a problem at all if the profits from Mac were big enough to cover the expenses - it just so happens they are usually not. Blizzard does it - World of Warcraft supports Metal, for example. But then again, their Overwatch is not coming to the Mac, because of Apple's lack of OpenGL and driver support and it was too complicated (in other words: costly) for Blizzard to change the game to support Metal instead. In fact, if Apple really wanted to have gaming on the Mac, they wouldn't use Metal, they would improve their OpenGL support. Then, for example, Blizzard would say - hey, we're already doing OpenGL development of Overwatch for the PS4, why not do a Mac port as well. However, Overwatch relies on some modern OpenGL stuff that Apple didn't implement in macOS - because they are invested in Metal. Sure, a game does run better on Metal than on OpenGL, but only on Macs.

If Apple wanted to replace OpenGL with a more low-level API (which improves performance, sure), and they were serious about gaming, they should've implemented Vulkan which works on PCs as well. In other words, they would've made it easier for developers to port for Mac, since they are already doing it for the PC.

So why did Apple do it? Why Metal? Well, first of all - because of iOS. There, Metal makes perfect sense. The market is so large, it's even more profitable than PC or consoles, and developers are crazy not to make a game work for iOS, if they are making a mobile game. So - for games that can run on iOS, the tables are turned. We're making an iOS game, we're doing the Metal thing, so why not do a Mac version too? (this is the reason there are a lot of iOS games that come to the Mac as well). And Apple wants more iOS games. The problem here is obvious - if you want to play iOS games, then it's great, but you won't find Uncharted 4 or Gears of War 4 on iOS.

Second - Metal is not just for games, and it allows Mac developers to make better apps. For example, a photo-editing app called Affinity Photo uses Metal and it runs great and it's exactly what Apple wants - to give their traditional developers better tools to work with. Apple doesn't care much about games, because that's not where their market is - sure, they'll bring along a developer or two on the keynote, but in reality, their whole hardware is turned towards people who use professional or office apps. But even there, Metal is not faring really well - while Adobe initially promised Metal support, they abandoned the idea - probably because they think OpenGL is fine as it is. A shame, but it's Apple's fault as much as Adobe's.

So, how can Apple turn the tide? Well, that's assuming they want to. Maybe in the future they decide they want to bring gaming to the Mac. It works well on iOS, gaming is a huge win for them there. I'm sure Apple wouldn't mind to repeat that with the Mac, but it probably is too much of an effort for them to do so, at this point. Even if they change their mind, the process would be slow.

1. Hardware: They would have to improve the GPUs on their computers. This is, actually, more a matter of perception than a real problem. Modern iMacs can game even now. And the next generation will only do better. But, as I said, it's all about perception. They need to attract gamers, and gamers want power, even if they don't really need it For example, Overwatch runs better on my base model iMac 5K - in Bootcamp - than it does on my PS4, but judging from the YouTube videos, you'd think you need latest and greatest GPUs to run the game - it's just how PC gamers think. No wander they call them "PC Master Race" :D So Apple needs a couple of really powerful Macs to attract game bloggers and then attract their audience, etc. If you want, say, Angry Joe to use a Mac, you need a Mac with a GTX 1080, even better - with two. Then he can play on a Mac, say "Hey, this Mac is really great for gaming", and then people would buy other Macs for gaming and find out that you can play a lot of games on Mac hardware, even if it's not maxed out.

2. Software: Apple would have to implement better OpenGL or Vulkan support until they get popular enough to attract gamers and developers. At that point, they can switch to Metal or whatever they want.

3. Business: Apple would have to start building business relationships with game publishers. Make a lot of deals - with EA, Activision on one side, and build relationships with indie developers on the other. Invest a lot of money to make it work, invest a lot of time. Work with Steam. Improve their App Store to gather more people (instead of the joke that the Mac App Store is today). Basically, do what they are doing for iOS. Get Nintendo on board - like they did with iOS. Now that was huge. In fact, imagine if they could somehow make Mass Effect: Andromeda a timed exclusive for the Mac. That's practically impossible at this point, but just hypothetically, it would be huge. Sometimes, one game is enough to sell a system. Funny story: in fact, Halo was coming to the Mac and was announced on an Apple Keynote. Steve Jobs introduced Halo to the world. Then they lost Bungie to Microsoft, who offered them a better deal, and sold a bunch of XBoxes as result.

4. Marketing: They would have to advertise the **** out of it all.

Apple is so huge and powerful, I actually think they could do it. It would take time and effort, but they actually could do it. Who knows, maybe one day they do. But, it would take a lot of push, and Apple built it's business around an entirely different market. I doubt they will ever make a gaming machine out of a Mac. There is some hope they at least make it easier for developers to port games to the Mac and we get an occasional game or two. I hope they do something like that at least. Ironically, Metal is doing the exact opposite (actually not Metal itself, but the fact that they are abandoning OpenGL because of Metal).

Sorry for the long reply ;)
 
As of right now, Windows 10 has approximately 350 to 400 million active users. That's after 2 years. I'm sure Tim Cook would kill for those kinds of numbers for macOS.

I am sure you are right about Cook wanting those kind of numbers.

But my opinion, I think Apple was a lot better company, for the people that use their products, when they were not as popular.

Example, I think Mac computers and the OS for them was much better 5 or 10 years ago, when compared to today. Back when the Mac market share was a tiny sliver on a pie chart, that is when Apple was at their best.

I just think that numbers really doesn't mean that much to the end user. I rather Apple have a small market share and a great product, than a Huge market share and a mediocre product.
 
  • Like
Reactions: navaira
The "hello again" text is a direct reference to Mac introductions of the past so I'm not sure if you're being serious with this post..

Hm... okay. I didn't think of it that way at all, but I guess you can say that they're alluding to the "Hello" from the 1984 Mac unveiling...
 
The 2011 MBP variants were the last real laptops from Apple as they allowed maintenance and common upgrades based on traditional laptop expectations. RAM, HDD, Optical Drive, etc were all user accessible/replaceable with standard parts and ports. After 2011, the main volume format was given a proprietary interface and format, no space was allowed for an optical bay, and RAM was then soldered in and no longer replaceable/serviceable. If the memory goes bad in a MBP from 2012 forward, you have to throw the whole thing away, or pay for expensive repair work from Apple, and only Apple. If you decide you need more main volume space(bigger SSD) at any point after purchase, you have to either buy another MBP or go on eBay and hunt for an OEM part that is not available for sale from consumer oriented vendors.

Basically after Tim Cook fully took over, the MBP was turned into an appliance.


Whenever someone mentions lack of DIY upgrades as a reason MacBooks suck, a kitten falls of a tree. Seriously - I mean, you can't upgrade a Wacom Cintiq Companion or the upcoming Wacom MobileStudio Pro - and these are devices that specifically target pro users. You can't upgrade a Surface Pro either. Sure, it would be nice to be able to upgrade, but then the laptop would be thicker and heavier.

Look, I'm sure that there are some people who would be willing to trade portability for upgradeability, or maybe trade battery life for GPU performance, or whatever. Apple makes a certain type of computer, great for some, good for most, bad for others. You can look elsewhere with good reasons - it's fine. But saying that a MacBook Pro Retina is not a REAL LAPTOP just because you, personally, need user accessible/replacable things - that's just silly. It's not for you - fine. Me? I buy a new computer for my work every three years. I buy what I need, plan ahead, buy enough RAM and HDD space, buy enough performance. I trade the ability to upgrade it manually for a lighter computer, and one that can more easily fit in my bag. During that time - I'm covered by AppleCare.

And let me tell you about my MacBook Pro - the "not real" laptop, as you call it. It's fast. I did everything on it - from 3ds Max in Bootcamp, to Zbrush, 3D Coat and Photoshop. The screen is amazing. It's light enough to carry, and the battery lasts long enough to actually use it wherever I need. Compared to the "last real laptop from Apple", the 2011 MacBook, it's better in every measurable aspect - even if you upgraded everything you could on it.

It's a real laptop, my friend, and it has faithfully helped me get through a bunch of hard, demanding projects. It was there for me, reliably, for all these years. Call me sentimental, but I find what you said almost insulting. I know what work I did on my MacBook, what we went through togeather - and let me tell you - it was as real as the money it brought me.


P.S. Optical Drive? Seriously? I should've stopped reading right there.
 
Hm... okay. I didn't think of it that way at all, but I guess you can say that they're alluding to the "Hello" from the 1984 Mac unveiling...
Yes :)

As well as when the first iMac was introduced


hello-again-imac-jpg.666674


But, I don't think there's going to be anything as ground-breaking as those 2 announcements. I think it's just Apple wanting to hype up the event a bit more due to the long wait.
 
Yes :)

As well as when the first iMac was introduced


hello-again-imac-jpg.666674


But, I don't think there's going to be anything as ground-breaking as those 2 announcements. I think it's just Apple wanting to hype up the event a bit more due to the long wait.
I think you're right.

What a waste.
 
The 2011 MBP variants were the last real laptops from Apple as they allowed maintenance and common upgrades based on traditional laptop expectations. RAM, HDD, Optical Drive, etc were all user accessible/replaceable with standard parts and ports. After 2011, ...
Actually, 2012 was the last year of the user serviceable cMBP model. Luckily, I own the 2012 cMBP. Would like Apple to make a true MacBook PRO that actually contained a variety of ports, with user serviceability. But we all know that is a pipe dream at this point.
 
Are mice still a thing? :) I went with the first gen Trackpad years ago and never looked back. Best Apple peripheral ever IMO.
I use both. Trackpads are terrible when it comes to working on spreadsheets, if only for the "right-click+drag) function. But nice for scrolling and zooming.
 
I use both. Trackpads are terrible when it comes to working on spreadsheets, if only for the "right-click+drag) function. But nice for scrolling and zooming.

I use a trackpad all the time with Microsoft Excel. I never right click -- I use ctrl, alt, command as Apple intended since 1984.
 
Don't care for magic toolbar - functions keys are just fine but no we have to change it because apple has the "courage" to make it so.

Don't care for thinness because any thinner It's like an iPad pro 12.9" but then much more powerful and versatile.

What I do want:

* Built in LTE communications.
* Apple Pencil support
* Finger print scanner
* Might as well add touchscreen digitizer.

These are the big 4 I need for my next mbp. The iPad Pro 12.9" I have is just a more effort to mimic a real computer but it's so sad at its current iOS state the iPad pro really is meant for "desperate" work needed to be done I'd use it if I didn't have my mbp with me.

My next laptop may be a surface pro 5 depending on if they fixed the hardware sleep issues in the SP4. Other than the above 4 main components there is really nothing more I want from my mbp. What I really am asking for is for the iPad pro 12.9" to have a real operating system not the hand me down iphone iOS. So much screen real estate and apple designers just treat it like an adopted 3 legged cat. Give it some love and I'm sure you will sell more ipads.
 
I'm hanging on with my 2012 non retina 13" MBP and 2015 15" MBP. I bought them last summer so there really isn't a need to buy new again till these quit.

Ditto: my Late 2013 MBP 13" and 2015 5k iMac are just fine. Even my iPhone 6s is in no need of an upgrade.
[doublepost=1477106057][/doublepost]
Don't care for magic toolbar - functions keys are just fine but no we have to change it because apple has the "courage" to make it so.

Don't care for thinness because any thinner It's like an iPad pro 12.9" but then much more powerful and versatile.

What I do want:

* Built in LTE communications.
* Apple Pencil support
* Finger print scanner
* Might as well add touchscreen digitizer.

These are the big 4 I need for my next mbp. The iPad Pro 12.9" I have is just a more effort to mimic a real computer but it's so sad at its current iOS state the iPad pro really is meant for "desperate" work needed to be done I'd use it if I didn't have my mbp with me.

My next laptop may be a surface pro 5 depending on if they fixed the hardware sleep issues in the SP4. Other than the above 4 main components there is really nothing more I want from my mbp. What I really am asking for is for the iPad pro 12.9" to have a real operating system not the hand me down iphone iOS. So much screen real estate and apple designers just treat it like an adopted 3 legged cat. Give it some love and I'm sure you will sell more ipads.

I want an Apple Pencil sharpener or it's a deal breaker! :p
[doublepost=1477106157][/doublepost]
Actually, 2012 was the last year of the user serviceable cMBP model. Luckily, I own the 2012 cMBP. Would like Apple to make a true MacBook PRO that actually contained a variety of ports, with user serviceability. But we all know that is a pipe dream at this point.

Frankly, as long as they keep the MagSafe and have more than one USB port, we are in good shape. Because let's be honest: removing the MagSafe from the MBP is a MASSIVE deal breaker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: navaira
Frankly, as long as they keep the MagSafe and have more than one USB port, we are in good shape. Because let's be honest: removing the MagSafe from the MBP is a MASSIVE deal breaker.
Don't you think Apple knows that? If they are willing to throw away one of the biggest selling points of their laptop, I am sure Apple has a very good reason for wanting to do it.
 
Apple will be unveiling several new items, but the 'hello again' is new hardware in the form of Apple's version of an Alexa Echo. See: https://www.theinformation.com/apple-opening-siri-developing-echo-rival

The mist in the Apple Logo is "the cloud" and what I suspect is greater service capabilities via AI technology that does not require any new hardware, other than better speaker / microphone ala Amazon Echo.

There will be updates to iMac and MacBook Pro, possible Mac Pro, but the big deal will be new Siri features to a connected dedicated device. And with Siri hooks into MacSierra, some new features there too.. Once you give access to Siri, you can upgrade Siri in the cloud all you want, does not need new hardware. And as I suspect the original Siri team that stayed with Apple has been working on extending Siri, but Apple takes its own time, and obviously didn't see a need to purchase Viv. Which Apple is notorious about buying back technology from old engineers. http://appleinsider.com/articles/01/01/08/apple_acquires_soundjam_programmer_for_imusic

Apple has been working on the PII issue for awhile, that is what has been holding back Siri, not control issues, or brain drain, but how to build machine learning with "Differential Privacy". If you plan to sell user behaviors to plug-in cloud services like Viv, its a few factors easier, but if you want to keep that learning private but personalized and secure, you slow down development and depend on very fast clients. Client are now fast and fairly secure, and the PII is being hidden.

Watch I could be wrong.. But I am sure I am right ;-)




helloagainoctober27event-800x548.jpg


Article Link: Apple Invites Media to 'Hello Again' October 27th Mac-Centric Event[/QUOTE]
 
The 2011 MBP variants were the last real laptops from Apple as they allowed maintenance and common upgrades based on traditional laptop expectations. RAM, HDD, Optical Drive, etc were all user accessible/replaceable with standard parts and ports. After 2011, the main volume format was given a proprietary interface and format, no space was allowed for an optical bay, and RAM was then soldered in and no longer replaceable/serviceable. If the memory goes bad in a MBP from 2012 forward, you have to throw the whole thing away, or pay for expensive repair work from Apple, and only Apple. If you decide you need more main volume space(bigger SSD) at any point after purchase, you have to either buy another MBP or go on eBay and hunt for an OEM part that is not available for sale from consumer oriented vendors.

Basically after Tim Cook fully took over, the MBP was turned into an appliance.

I thought it was 2012 that was the last user serviceable macbook pro. They released a macbook pro retina along side the classic 15 inch and 13 model. The two 15" models contained similar hardware except for one having the retina screen, and then later in october released the retina 13.

You might need to check that, but i did buy my 13" macbook pro in the refresh of summer 2012 with the ivy bridge processor.
 
The way I see it, a lot of you here want the following:
1. User accessible and upgradeable laptops
2. Lots of ports
3. Touchscreen

Also, when I go over to the macOS section of the forum, a lot of people claim that Apple is working to oversimplify OS X/macOS, that Windows 10 is better, Microsoft is innovating, etc.

YOU'RE IN LUCK! The touchscreen laptop with lots of ports and user accessible internals, running an OS that you find more professional is already here! It's called - wait for it - a PC laptop!

My question here is not "why do you need feature X". We're all different, have different needs, some people need port X, others have no use for it - that's fine. I don't think there is a computer in the world that is universally suitable for everyone. My question is: what are all of you guys doing here?

It's one thing to criticize Apple for their faults. Saying they should update Mac hardware more regularly, or that iPad version of iOS needs more love, or whatever you think is bad. But you guys are bitterly attacking the core tenets of their design.

Seriously, if you think a laptop without upgradeability is not 'a real laptop', if you think Apple is just making "laptops in colors" and if you think you need all kinds of ports - why are you here? The perfect computer for you already exists. Here, let me help you:

i_s01_zbook17_gallery_img1_tcm245_2189499_tcm245_1967073_tcm245-2189499.jpg


This is a great workstation laptop. It has Intel Xeons, it has up to 4Gb storage, it has all the ports you need, it has dual Thunderbolt 3, you can choose between AMD and Nvidia - and it costs the same (or even less) than a MacBook Pro.

Why don't you get that? Me, I like my computers to be thin and light. I like them to be fast, but the battery must also be good. I don't personally care about ports that much - I'm not crazy for having to use a USB-C to USB-A adapter once in a while, but the tradeoff is ok. But that's me. That's why I'm getting the next MacBook. Look, I understand why this is not good for you. But if you guys really, really don't like the thing Apple is doing for the past decade, why stick to Apple? The logo? It's because of the logo, right? No? What then?

And I don't understand the Tim Cook hate - do you really think if Steve Jobs was here, he would've made a laptop with more ports, thicker design and allow user accesibility? Seriously? This is Apple. They were always like this. It's their business approach, it's their design philosophy, it's their core value. Heck, they've been removing ports, making proprietary stuff not caring about standards, making things lighter and thinner - ever since Steve returned to Apple, long, long ago. Do you know why MacBook had user accessible internals in, say, 2009? Side effect. Because that was the only way they knew how to make them at the time. They still didn't perfect their unibody process, they didn't do laminated screens, they didn't have a pipeline set to repair their own laptops without making them more user accessible as a side-effect. It's not because they wanted you to open your Macs. They didn't. They never wanted you tinkering or customizing their hardware. Do you honestly think Steve Jobs wanted people installing a second HDD instead of an optical drive? Or do you think they didn't know how to PREVENT people from doing that?

This is Apple. Ever since Jobs came back, this has been Apple. You don't have to like them, but this is their design philosophy. This is their approach. This is their core. They have always been like that. And you know what, it made them the most successful company in the world.

I'm not saying "don't criticize Apple". By all means, do. This is what gets them to work harder. But I'm saying if you're criticizing the core of their being - perhaps they are not the company for you. Perhaps you should look elsewhere. And let those of us that do enjoy their approach talk about the good and the bad Apple does. Like, the decision to wait 3 years (and counting) to update a Mac Pro. It has nothing to do with Apple core values. It's just a mistake.

But if you think Apple should make a laptop like HP, or Dell? Again, I'm asking you - why are you here?



Let me tell you what's going to happen on the 27th. Apple will announce new MacBook Pros (and other Macs too, but let's stick to this for simplicity). They are going to be thinner. They will possibly be in color. They will most likely be Skylake, not Kaby Lake. Yes, they will most likely have the Magic Toolbar. They will most likely have the new thin keyboard. They will most likely have USB-C ports and possibly (and sadly) loose the great MagSafe (for a reason you may or may not find valid). They won't have touch screens, multiple ports, optical drives or card readers and they won't come with a GeForce GTX 1080. If you're like me - it's your next laptop. If you're not like me - we all get it - it's not a computer for you. There is a great PC laptop for you out there.

So, don't take this the wrong way but - can you just, you know, leave? Please, don't insult me by calling me a fanboy. I'm not calling you guys anything. Heck, I even understand you. Just, please.... leave.
 
Last edited:
...Seriously, if you think a laptop without upgradeability is not 'a real laptop', if you think Apple is just making "laptops in colors" and if you think you need all kinds of ports - why are you here? The perfect computer for you already exists. Here, let me help you:

i_s01_zbook17_gallery_img1_tcm245_2189499_tcm245_1967073_tcm245-2189499.jpg


... Heck, I even understand you. Just, please.... leave.

What is the benefit of USB-C compared to USB-A? Is it only to make the machine thinner or does it provide a faster port then USB 3.1?

I think you are over exaggerating the amount of ports and configurability people want. To suggest you have to buy a desktop replacement to be able to get a user replaceable drive and memory is ridiculous. The thinness obsession is getting out of hand to the point where the processors have to be lower and lower power to not overheat in the case. I'm perfectly fine with the current thinness of my Early 2015 MacBook Pro 13". If it meant being able to upgrade the RAM and storage capacity myself I'd be fine with the non retina MacBook Pro thickness.
 
Let's say goodbye to Intel processors (at least for all less powerful Macs for the moment) and please welcome the new generation of ARM-based Macs. The future is a single OS (and compatible apps too of course) for Macs, iPads, iPhones, iEverthingelse.

The Mac is dead, long live to the Mac!
 
What is the benefit of USB-C compared to USB-A? Is it only to make the machine thinner or does it provide a faster port then USB 3.1?

I can think of two from a non-technical perspective: not having to think about if you're plugging it in the right way around, and it being smaller (which should lead to smaller devices and adaptors down the road).
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.