Apple Listing Select Movies as 4K and HDR in iTunes Purchase History

[d5aqoëp]

With AT&T capping my home internet, i will not be using 4K anytime soon. In fact, i have had to lower my apple-tv resolution to 720p and also lower my netflix streaming resolution.


Damn internet data limit capping!!!! my current monthly cap is 1024gb.

How do you intend to use 4K with capping then?

I couldn’t control my laughter at your 1024 GB cap. I have 265 GB cap and I ration my 4k streaming.

You are far better off than 99% of the world who have extremely limited caps.
[doublepost=1501313793][/doublepost]

I prefer Blu-ray over digital download or streaming as the quality is much better and once you buy it you own it. (Although I do have a Netflix subscription) As a minimalist I just prefer quality over quantity even if it means buying a physical thing instead of going digital only as some other minimalists prefer.

As far as 4K UHD Blu-ray is concerned, I'm really displeased with the system requirements as I prefer watching movies on my 27 inch iMac. In order to watch them on your computer (apart from having to buy a new 4K UHD Blu-ray drive) you need at least a latest generation Intel Kaby Lake processor as it's currently the only processor on the market that supports Intel's SGX DRM and it's only going to work while using the onboard graphics and your motherboard needs to be compatible as well. In addition to that, your entire setup (cables, display, computer hardware, ... everything) needs to support HDCP 2.2. Oh and Windows 10 is the only supported operating system and there's no playback software whatsoever other than CyberLink's PowerDVD 17 Ultra. Needless to say that's ridiculous, especially if you're a Mac user.

I'd be happy to buy 4K UHD Blu-ray discs (even considering the higher costs) but looks like they don't want me to. Thank you DRM.

Last I heard, Nvidia has enabled 4K HEVC DRM support on their Pascal GPUs.

 

[QquegChristian]

Why does something as simple as video resolution have to be so complicated? All of these posts and explanations seem so crazy to me. You would think something like this could be figured out...

Everyone has a different answer. Crazy.

I'm an indie filmmaker... it's doubly frustrating to me as I have to spend more money and deal with MASSIVE amounts of data to shoot in 4K, when no one can even see my 1080p movies the same way I can see them, especially not color-wise, as all home formats for 1080p are 8bit but most cinema cameras are 10, 12, or 14bit. This is what the HDR of 4K fixes... it's just strange that we didn't have HDR for 1080p first! This should have been done years ago.

I'm not excited to have to shoot 2,000mbps just so it can be streamed at 18mbps. At least the possibility of Apple renting out 4K solves my other major issue... which is that, currently, Netflix is just about the only way to deliver 4K content to a home viewer...

LONG AND MOSTLY UNRELATED NETFLIX RANT:

...but Netflix is a highly curated network, no different than HBO at this point. There are less than 5,000 movies on Netflix and the number has been dropping every year as they spend more money on original content. Amazon paid $8,000 for a license to stream my first movie for two years. Netflix turned us down at $4,000. This was a movie that won many film festivals around the world, was in the top 20 movies on iTunes for a month, and was for sale on DVD in every Wal-Mart store. I hear the same from many people I've met on the film festival circuit... that their distributors can't get Netflix to take any movies, even at low rates like our $4,000 for 2 years of unlimited viewers.

On the other side of the coin, I have other friends who have signed deals to make Netflix Original movies with budgets over a million dollars. This is now the dream for indie filmmakers. Netflix is more like a record label than Spotify is what I'm saying and they continue to go further down that path.

That's a conflicting feeling to me, as I'd LOVE to get signed by Netflix, but original content is pretty anti-consumer. I think we all give Netflix a pass because we all have it, but if another service were to somehow rise up and offer more and more movies, we'd have to subscribe to both to catch the exclusives. Imagine if 1/3 of your favorite artists were Spotify exclusives and another 1/3 were Apple Music exclusives, etc. That's where we are with Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, HBO, etc. For some reason it didn't feel so weird when it was original shows, but it sucks to see movies going down that path.

 

[alexgowers]

4K itself isn't as big an issue as what 4K allows, and that's HDR. That is something the average person can see, and will make a difference to, no matter how close they sit to the screen.

HDR display and a HDR workflow for creators is hit and miss and practically unused. We are talking about bit depth and dynamic range with HDR, both are still limited in video by data rates, camera sensors, monitors, knowledge and more. I understand where you are coming from but again the bottleneck is the lack of 4k media formats/players and the huge increases in bandwidth needed for bitrates to allow 4k let alone adding HDR into the mix as well.

Considering how badly colour graded most video is, HDR is far beyond the professionals let alone becoming a mainstream tech used correctly. It's more likely to result in odd looking video that ADD to the experience.

 

[sajr]

More importantly why would someone buy Passengers?

 

[brentonbrenton]

There is a bunch of things in play here.
Firstly at the WWDC keynote, about the 9 minute mark Tim talks about the ATV and mentions there will be more announcements around it later in the year.

iPad was updated at WWDC to free-up space for later this year, likely at the iPhone unveiling they will also demonstrate the full App Store and iTunes Store upgrades, more than we have currently seen. They've said these are some of the biggest updates we've ever had. Already in the betas they have begun the transition. The iTunes app is updated with a generic star logo, the videos app is updated to TV, they have been working on the generic sounding 'Music' app for sometime for everything streaming and owned music. For all the complaining about splitting up iTunes, this is now happening. Music/audio over here and your tv/movies over there and the store in the middle.

HEVC announcement at WWDC, so most iPhones and now computers will be ready to go for 4K. They will have been updating all the video files for some time now. The screenshot that came out today will have been just a glitch in the Apple matrix and a peek through. I doubt they will upgrade users video libraries for free, a price difference fee is more likely. Users get low fee, Apple makes money and the studios don't lose out. Win Win. The Amazon app is coming later this year, it'll be with the announcement of the ATV 4K, Amazon likely wanted their videos to be available where possible at 4K. Apple will have been wanting to get to the HEVC video format for some time, if not just because of the potential bandwidth cost reductions, and users getting a better end experience. They also want to make a big announcement of this coming out with the biggest range of higher resolution services at once. It would blow the competition out of the water and cause them to play catchup.

I'm going to doubt any Apple video streaming service will be coming just yet. We know they have been in discussions with the studios more than once. Users are perplexed why they are trying to make content. The studios didn't want to signup for streaming because there was no video service in place. Apple is now trying to make just enough content now to get users on board then at a later date go back to the studios and put figures in front of them for how many eyeballs the service is bringing in (so they will need to improve, because Planet of the Apps won't cut it). Luckily they recently brought on board those Sony(?) directors/producers, as listed on this very website. The studios will likely signup, because a service has been established by then and the eyeballs exist and are quantifiable.

Apple Music will also get upgraded. If the Siri speaker is as good as they say, the current Apple streaming quality won't cut it. Higher bitrate options when purchasing in the iTunes store and also a higher bitrate streaming subscription tier for Apple Music.

There is a larger picture here Apple is trying to make, they have just taken a bit longer to get there because of all the ducks involved.

 

[femike]

There are more significant improvements and fixes that the AppleTV needs before 4K. But I assume the next version will have a 4gb ram and hopefully A10X cpu, so supporting 4K will be implemented anyway.

 

[randian]

The studios didn't allow the UV providers to offer upgrade pricing, so I would expect they won't allow Apple to either.

 

[Zxxv]

Will be dead on arrival if they cannot provide us with a subscription model. Purchasing movies individually off iTunes is a real pain in the ass, even more so with Netflix & Co. striving.

Nah. Netflix is like the worst video store from the 80's. It constantly moves stuff around so when you open netflix nothing is where it was. They then stop stocking your favourite films. Its a joke of a service. Ruined by who ever's incharge. And I used to like it.

 

[QquegChristian]

Nah. Netflix is like the worst video store from the 80's. It constantly moves stuff around so when you open netflix nothing is where it was. They then stop stocking your favourite films. Its a joke of a service. Ruined by who ever's incharge. And I used to like it.

I'm convinced it's an algorithm meant to actually bury brand new content you will like. This way, you always feel like there's more great stuff hiding on Netflix, you just have to keep digging deeper.

It's like a $5 discount movie bin at a store. It may only have 15 different movies in it, but if you were to find a "good" one, you'll keep digging and digging and then you start to feel like a mediocre find is still a FIND and then BAM your buying Borat on DVD in the year 2017.

 

[Sheppard]

Sorry if this has been mentioned...

HEVC brings huge savings for reducing bandwidth. Tests show that it's between 35% - 50% pushing the same quality video so we should be seeing similar bandwidth usage for 4K compared to the current 1080p in H.264 and hopefully better quality 1080p content via higher bit rate

Now that HEVC will be natively supported on macOS HS and baked into iOS 11 publicly at iPhone launch, it makes absolute sense to update the ATV at the same time.

 

[0098386]

Apple is like the last company on earth to support 4k. I thought they would be among the first.

They've always been this way. Media quality is low with Apple. They make outstanding displays but would rather you provided the content in the form of photo editing. They're great for that after all!

I don't know why some folk consider Apple a high quality "Rolls Royce" type company. Artificially raised prices and never using the word "sale" doesn't cut it.
[doublepost=1501320670][/doublepost]

Nah. Netflix is like the worst video store from the 80's. It constantly moves stuff around so when you open netflix nothing is where it was. They then stop stocking your favourite films. Its a joke of a service. Ruined by who ever's incharge. And I used to like it.

Hmm? I've subscribed for a few years now but I've only ever seen it as a place that temporarily holds films and TV shows. If you like them you need to buy them on Bluray or DVD instead. (After all digital media can have its license revoked and then you can no longer download it)

I find the best way forward is to buy blurays and make my own rips (or download if it's being difficult), and to use Netflix as a tasting platform.

 

[Zxxv]

I'm convinced it's an algorithm meant to actually bury brand new content you will like. This way, you always feel like there's more great stuff hiding on Netflix, you just have to keep digging deeper.

It's like a $5 discount movie bin at a store. It may only have 15 different movies in it, but if you were to find a "good" one, you'll keep digging and digging and then you start to feel like a mediocre find is still a FIND and then BAM your buying Borat on DVD in the year 2017.

WOW! couldn't have put it any better
[doublepost=1501324412][/doublepost]

Hmm? I've subscribed for a few years now but I've only ever seen it as a place that temporarily holds films and TV shows. If you like them you need to buy them on Bluray or DVD instead. (After all digital media can have its license revoked and then you can no longer download it)

I find the best way forward is to buy blurays and make my own rips (or download if it's being difficult), and to use Netflix as a tasting platform.

Yet the ***** remains. Always remains

 

[newyorksole]

I'm an indie filmmaker... it's doubly frustrating to me as I have to spend more money and deal with MASSIVE amounts of data to shoot in 4K, when no one can even see my 1080p movies the same way I can see them, especially not color-wise, as all home formats for 1080p are 8bit but most cinema cameras are 10, 12, or 14bit. This is what the HDR of 4K fixes... it's just strange that we didn't have HDR for 1080p first! This should have been done years ago.

I'm not excited to have to shoot 2,000mbps just so it can be streamed at 18mbps. At least the possibility of Apple renting out 4K solves my other major issue... which is that, currently, Netflix is just about the only way to deliver 4K content to a home viewer...

LONG AND MOSTLY UNRELATED NETFLIX RANT:

...but Netflix is a highly curated network, no different than HBO at this point. There are less than 5,000 movies on Netflix and the number has been dropping every year as they spend more money on original content. Amazon paid $8,000 for a license to stream my first movie for two years. Netflix turned us down at $4,000. This was a movie that won many film festivals around the world, was in the top 20 movies on iTunes for a month, and was for sale on DVD in every Wal-Mart store. I hear the same from many people I've met on the film festival circuit... that their distributors can't get Netflix to take any movies, even at low rates like our $4,000 for 2 years of unlimited viewers.

On the other side of the coin, I have other friends who have signed deals to make Netflix Original movies with budgets over a million dollars. This is now the dream for indie filmmakers. Netflix is more like a record label than Spotify is what I'm saying and they continue to go further down that path.

That's a conflicting feeling to me, as I'd LOVE to get signed by Netflix, but original content is pretty anti-consumer. I think we all give Netflix a pass because we all have it, but if another service were to somehow rise up and offer more and more movies, we'd have to subscribe to both to catch the exclusives. Imagine if 1/3 of your favorite artists were Spotify exclusives and another 1/3 were Apple Music exclusives, etc. That's where we are with Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, HBO, etc. For some reason it didn't feel so weird when it was original shows, but it sucks to see movies going down that path.

Wowww. Yeah I see what you mean. Sorry that you have to go through that hassle. I feel Ike every industry is changing for the worst

 

[JeffyTheQuik]

Can't wait to be proven right that most (if not all) purchased HD content will be automatically upgraded to 4K.

I would pay a one time fee to upgrade all of my HD content to 4K. Something like $100, and all of my content gets upgraded. I'll take free, but I have a feeling that the studios will be thinking...
"Hmmm... we got them to buy all the stuff over again when we went from VHS to DVD, then DVD to BluRay, then again when we went to Digital... why not try it again with HD to 4K, and while we're at it, when 8K comes out... "
[doublepost=1501325269][/doublepost]

I'm convinced it's an algorithm meant to actually bury brand new content you will like. This way, you always feel like there's more great stuff hiding on Netflix, you just have to keep digging deeper.

It's like a $5 discount movie bin at a store. It may only have 15 different movies in it, but if you were to find a "good" one, you'll keep digging and digging and then you start to feel like a mediocre find is still a FIND and then BAM your buying Borat on DVD in the year 2017.

It's the cheerleader theory...

 

[0098386]

WOW! couldn't have put it any better
[doublepost=1501324412][/doublepost]

Yet the ***** remains. Always remains

Are you referencing the bad stuff on Netflix? Because if so, I queued up a load of it one time and even the bad stuff is entertaining just for being awful!

 

[CarlJ]

Wish they could just update the software of the 4 to allow to have 4K. Rather not buy a third Apple TV.

I'll cheerfully buy the ATV5, because my ATV4 cost so much less over the past year and a half than the cable TV subscription it replaced.
[doublepost=1501329630][/doublepost]

To add to what others are saying about quality beyond resolution alone...

iTunes sells 1080p movies with a data rate of 8mbps.

Netflix streams 4K with HDR at around 18mbps.

1080p bluray is 25-30mbps, despite have 1/4th the pixels and less color data than 4K HDR...

Excellent numbers. The one mitigating factor - and I'm not arguing against your point, it's just something to factor in - is that the new standards, H.265/etc. are said to be substantially better at compression than H.264 has been.

 

[Zxxv]

Are you referencing the bad stuff on Netflix? Because if so, I queued up a load of it one time and even the bad stuff is entertaining just for being awful!

Yes. Cause you said

Hmm? I've subscribed for a few years now but I've only ever seen it as a place that temporarily holds films and TV shows.

 

[CarlJ]

I'm really excited for this and hoping it gets announced at WWDC in September.

I'm excited too, but WWDC, Apple's developer conference happens once a year, in June. The September/October events always have unique names.
[doublepost=1501330496][/doublepost]

Then why didn't they announce an iTunes 4K movie catalog upgrade too?

Tim Cook's last line in the tiny spot carved out for Apple TV at WWDC was something to the effect of, "we'll have more to talk about with Apple TV later this year." That wasn't idle chit-chat, their keynotes are planned down to the second. WWDC is focused on developers, and it would have been difficult to shoehorn much more into the keynote. They talked about the improved codec support and such because those are developer-relevant issues. I expect they will, indeed, have a lot more to say about the consumer-oriented aspects of the Apple TV this fall.

 

[mikecorp]

4k with HDMI 2.0?? 2.1??
I hope they add back optical Audio,
H265 no brainer
Atmos ??

 

[400]

For mentions of quality.
The one and only judge of the quality will be the one with the MK 1 eyeball/brain combination saying "yep, looks good enough to me". You can chuck numbers around all day but there is only on judge.

I know Bluray will be the top dog to beat. Streaming is dependent on various things as many are obviously aware. My ISP also does 4K sport live (BT in the UK). The quality is superb, and yes that is compressed but the trick with compression is tricking the brain attached to the eye, I can forget percentages and numbers involved if my brain/eye says "Yes!". They (BT) peg the rate at 22mb I think?

Netflix I like but have issues with never knowing what is on as they seem to have some archaic thing called never having an obvious menu, it is like hide and seek only you do not know what you are looking for. (Someone is bound to tell me there is now ). Overall I am happy with the Netflix 4k but they have messed up the app on my version of the TV regards HDR.

The acid test for me will be in store when I can see it on a good display and mess round with it.

 

[QquegChristian]

[doublepost=1501329630][/doublepost]Excellent numbers. The one mitigating factor - and I'm not arguing against your point, it's just something to factor in - is that the new standards, H.265/etc. are said to be substantially better at compression than H.264 has been.

Absolutely, that was one of the things that made BluRay such an amazing generational leap. 4x the pixels but more than 4x the disc space as DVD to fit it, PLUS a much more efficient codec in AVC.

H265 is said to be twice as efficient as AVC... so my numbers could be halved because of that. 4K would still need to stream at around 50mbps rather than 18 to match the compression quality of a 25mbps bluray.

 

[Sakurambo-kun]

What are you talking about? Even once Apple releases a 4K Apple TV, and upgrades the iTunes Store to 4K content -- how much 4K content will be available on Apple TV? Netflix, for an added fee that no one will pay. No other popular video service offers anything.

The real world of 4K is that it is mostly no where.

There's a ton of 4k content on Netflix and an increasing amount in Dolby Vision too. Amazon as a fair amount too. I also watch an increasing amount of movies of UHD blu-ray.

4K is the standard now.
[doublepost=1501341352][/doublepost]

Netflix and Amazon Video have loads of original content at 4k resolution. If I understand correctly there is even more content using HDR.

Movies per se depend on new masters been released by movie studios and most 4k content is for purchase only not streaming (again a restriction imposed by the studios not Apple, Netflix or Amazon)

Movies are a trickier area as many movies, even brand new ones use 2k digital intermediates, which are then upscaled to 4K. As such, there's little point in buying them in UHD as the resolution isn't there.

It's a different story with older films which were created entirely on film. They can be remastered in true 4K.

Netflix and Amazon are generally making content in full fat 4K.

 

[Mr Dobey]

Hopefully the quality will be high enough to make the 4K HDR meaningful. Many reviews suggest a lot of digital 4K sources cannot match 1080p Blu-Ray for quality. Image quality isn't just about the resolution.

Agreed. That's why Apple is waiting for hardware H.265 (HEVC) support before going 4K with AppleTV. As we can see with macOS High Sierra, H.265 is supported both on the software level and hardware level with the latest refresh of Intel Kaby Lake processor Mac's.

We also don't know if even the latest A10X chip in the newest iPad Pro can support 4K60p, given that there is no 3840x2160p iPad to test the theory and the Apple Lightening Digital AV adaptor still has a maximum output resolution of 1080p. Yes 4K movies are 4K24p and TV is mostly 4K30p but further ahead, news channels will be 4K60p just like 720p60 now for a smooth look. Plus people who play games on their TV won't be happy until they get 60Hz. Apple could also release a 5th generation that supports 4K30p and then a 6th that supports 4K60p as they did with 1080p going from 3rd to 4th generation.

 

[Moonjumper]

What kind of comparison are you making? Of course, unnamed streaming services are potentially going to over-compress 4K vs. what might be considered the reference quality of 1080p Disc. But that's not apples to apples at all. How about either 4K UHD Blu Ray vs. 1080p Blu Ray or compressed-to-over-compressed 4K streaming service vs. the same compressed-to-over-compressed 1080p streaming service? Or flip the mismatch comparison if we want to inject obvious bias: how about 4K HDR Blu Ray vs. over-compressed 1080p streaming service?

Why do we play that word game where 4K seems to have to be "overly compressed" but we want to compare it to an optimal version of 1080p? Overly-compressed 4K AND overly-compressed 1080p may look worse than DVD quality if there's enough compression. So is 1080p worse than DVD? Compress 4K, 1080p & DVD enough and VHS might be able to win the visual appeal battle. So go back to VHS?

Similarly, if we are going to suggest that Apple video quality is better than other streamers and/or comparable-to-better-than disc, great... but then let's make the same assumption about Apple 4K video quality. In other words, I'm not imagining Apple rolling our 4K hardware with over-compressed iTunes 4K video that is visibly inferior to 1080p iTunes video. If we want to believe Apple streaming quality is best, we should leap of faith that Apple 4K streaming quality will also be best. Or compare disc quality vs disc quality. Or streaming service quality vs. (same) streaming service quality.

Let me put it another way... Many 4K streaming services are comparable to good 1080p. I think it quite probable that if the bitrate for that streaming was focused on the quality of the pixels rather than the number of them, the image could be just as good. If that is the case, the 4K isn't meaningful (an important word I used in my original post).

The question is not if the iTunes 4K is superior to iTunes 1080p, it is if the 4K delivers something significantly better than could be achieved with just the extra bitrate used.

I hope the iTunes 4K will be the best streaming option, but am not prepared to make a leap of faith because they were not as strong in HD as they were in SD. I'm hoping that trend does not continue to UHD.

 

[Sakurambo-kun]

I couldn’t control my laughter at your 1024 GB cap. I have 265 GB cap and I ration my 4k streaming.

You are far better off than 99% of the world who have extremely limited caps.
[doublepost=1501313793][/doublepost]
Last I heard, Nvidia has enabled 4K HEVC DRM support on their Pascal GPUs.

Here in the UK caps aren't that common, unless you're incredibly cheap.

To give you an idea how much data 4K uses, I mostly watch Netflix and Amazon 4K these days and in the past 2 weeks I've used over 200gb of data on streaming alone.