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There are some very sour souls in here who refuse to pay the premium for a premium phone.
Count me in then. I buy secondhand. I got a good deal on a 'mint' iPhone 7 a couple of months ago. The previous owner had traded up to an S8+. I'd expect a load of very good iPhone 7's to hit the pawn shops at the end of next month.
Sounds like a winner to me you know.
 
There are some very sour souls in here who refuse to pay the premium for a premium phone.

for a comment like this, I'd expect change from your signature.

It's all about value proposition. To many people, Apple isn't above and beyond the competition. They're great devices, But to expect a premium over the competition just because it's got an Apple logo on it doesn't really have the same value for me as it might for you.

the iPhone 7 mgith have been the best iPhone created to date (i'd still say the 6S myself), but that doesn't suddenly mean it's the best phone to date and deserves any more of a premium price point than any other flagship.

However, Apple's not alone in this, We're starting to see flagships phones start to be renamed to "Premium" phones and seeing price increases accross the board.

Calling something "premium" doesn't suddenly make it premium.
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Oh no... Apple might drop from 2nd place to 3rd place in the smartphone market.

Does this ranking matter in other industries?

Did anyone notice that Honda is currency the #7 automaker worldwide?

Pathetic, right? :p

And amusingly, Apple isn't "dropping", more than Huawei is just passing. Apple's sales numbers aren't dropping yet, so the verbage here can imply to many something that is not true.
 
Third, rank doesn't matter, not even a little.

What matters is how many are sold, not in comparison to anyone else, and how much profit is made from those sales.

Oh..Pufff.... Why does profit made is important for customer. It seems to me Apple customer want Apple profit from them as much as possible and they are proud of it. Then when will Apple bring their massive profit back to US and pay their tax properly?
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Apple. Doesn’t. Care. About. Market. share. How is this not obvious by now?


Oh... Pufff.... Only if Apple is lossing... Apple love talk about their market share when they are the king of market share. Apple love talk about their market share for Apple Watch and Apple Pay...
 
Except Apple still makes all the money, so is this really competition?
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Wrong, ridiculous thinking. The millions of phones that Apple sells are NOT, repeat NOT, all purchased by “isheep”, my parents, and many other people I know that don’t give two hangs about tech buy Apple happily, because it’s a better product. People pay what it’s worth. And keep buying it. The collective intelligence of all those millions who believe what they pay is worth it supersedes your opinion. Sorry.
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Amazing... just because I’m willing to pay more than you are doesnt mean I’m being overcharged. They charge what it costs To make plus about 30%. I don’t have a problem with that.

Against all other flagship phones the iPhone in general has less RAM, less storage/$, no expandable memory, a lower resolution screen, smaller screen, typically LCD v OLED and is a heavier phone - if any other brand offered a phone with the same specs, it would be called a mid-range phone. It might well be well made and have a great OS [depending on your loyalty] , but it is no way an expensive phone to build. Apples makes a midrange phone and charges flagship prices....and can largely do that based on the brand.
 
From just 4 tech publications (I stopped at four as I was getting bored) not one rated Huawei in the top, or even close. their ratings for best phones of 2017 were
Iphone 7 plus Pixel XL Galaxy S8 HTC U11 LG G6
Galaxy S8 Iphone 7 plus Iphone 7 One Plus 5 Galaxy S8 Plus
Galaxy S8 Pixel XL Iphone 7 plus One Plus 5 HTC I11
Galaxy S8 LG G6 Iphone 7 plus One Plus 5 Moto Z2 Play

Notice, Huawei isnt listed in ANY. Thats pretty compelling. Now, Im not saying they dont make a nice phone. But when you come with statements like "Huawei has better specs and same quality built then the iPhone." Or "Their ability to innovate is beyond of apple's." Or " people can get the same quality "better from huawei"
Well, no offense, but your out of your freaking mind.
Tech journals will only give high ratings to top price phones.
I used to buy only "flagship" phones. Latest HTC One and Sony Xperia. But my current phone Lenovo P2 at £200 is a superb phone. I experience no discernable lags, delays etc compared to previous phones. These needed a mid day charge when I went on long cycle runs. The P2 has an amazing stamina and lasts a 7 hour cycle plus lunch break running two cycle apps, heartrate strap plus occasional Google Navigation without a re-charge. And with my 128 GB memory card with my flac library is less than a third of the price of similar memory spec iPhone.
 
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Going down to 3rd will make waves on Wall St. Hold will become 'Sell' in double quick time. That is the sort of thing that Apple has to worry about.
Now a few reports of slurping and phoning home might counter that ;);)

I'm just going to assume you are kidding.
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Oh..Pufff.... Why does profit made is important for customer. It seems to me Apple customer want Apple profit from them as much as possible and they are proud of it. Then when will Apple bring their massive profit back to US and pay their tax properly?

And you too.
 
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I'm just going to assume you are kidding.
[doublepost=1502395343][/doublepost]

And you too.


No.. Stopped using iPhone all together. Sold my old iPhones. Only kept iPhone 6S for iOS only apps. Switched to Huawei and Moto. Beauty about Android for the price of iPhone you can buy two really good Android phone. I got Honor 8 for 450 including tax and 226 for Moto E. Still comes out lower than iPhone. Both Huawei Honor 8 and Moto E performed everyday task perfectly well. I am using Moto E 4th generation for replying this message.
 
Zune flopped because it was a lousy product. Had it been a good product, and not flopped, how would that have been bad for you? Elaborate.
I think you've stated my point pretty well, actually. Competition is not always good. My issue is with the word "always". Zune was a competitor to iPod, did nothing to make iPods better, and wasted resources that may have benefited me if they were applied elsewhere. It was a net loss to me (and, I think, the market in general).

If it had been a good product, and if it either forced a perceptible shift to Apple's products or offered a needed alternative for a significant segment of the market, then it would have supported the argument that sometimes competition is good.

But people have stopped thinking about what competition means or how/where it's useful. They talk about it like electrolytes: "it's what plants crave!".



The rest of this is just my naive analysis of the smartphone market, and where I think competition is meaningless or net negative, and where I think it would be likely to be "great". In other words, it's probably a good place to stop reading...

TL;DR: While I think there are places where competition can still be good for the consumer in the current environment, I think the place where competition would truly be welcome is in providing another alternative, most likely proprietary, OS.


When I look at Apple's iPhone profits, it tells me there is room for more competition in the smartphone market. When I look at Apple's share of the industry profits, it tells me that Yet Another Android Device isn't useful competition, and isn't inherently good for consumers. There are already multiple great Android products out there, and YAAD can really only serve to divide up the pittance that Samsung is making into more pieces.

In the short run, and maybe with some help from the beneficiary of some positive externalities (like the Chinese government), a new manufacturer may be able to burn their investment dollars and make real technical improvements, but in the long run you can't afford to keep innovating if you have no profit to invest and nobody will invest where there's no return. Then it becomes an ugly cost cutting wasteland as the players bite and scratch to be the last company standing.

Competing on hardware hasn't seemed to impact Apple or the market in any meaningful way, and there's no money left on the Android side for innovation on the scale that Apple can finance so nobody will seriously invest in it. Samsung/Huawei aren't competing with technical prowess, they're competing with market advantage (carrier contracts, access to China, etc).

Android, on the other hand, is an important competitor to iOS. It has, I believe, given a meaningful alternative to a significant segment of the market and has had an impact on Apple's designs.

So the place where competition is still vital, and where you can go if you covet a some of Apple's profits, is software. Innovation in Android have the potential to pull customers from iOS (and Apple). Problem is that those customers are divided among multiple handset makers who must share the same Android features but the most profit they can see from those new customers is the margin on their hardware sales which is nearing zero with each new YAAD. This is a recipe for a race to the bottom-- basically any improvement to Android makes the average handset worse while the (mostly indirect) profits and positive externalities flow to Google, not the hardware maker so aren't reinvested into the business.

Just to speculate further: maybe this is why Google put a toe back in the hardware market. I thought it was weird to compete with your OEMs, but maybe it's a hedge against all your OEMs suddenly closing up shop and cutting off your access to the market.
 
It's funny our our tastes change over a relatively short time, like say 10 years. If I saw that Huawei phone 10 years ago, I'd have fallen all over myself to get one, and would have considered it the most amazing thing to ever have descended from the heavens. But now, in 2017, I look at it, and I can't even be bothered to read a short article about it. I'm already psychologically prepared to upgrade my iPhone 6 Plus to whatever new iPhone arrives this fall.
 
So basically, it's a state-sponsored smartphone that also plays nice with WeChat and Apple is completely effed in China now, grim.

Unless of course Apple plays nice with China too. Once all of the nation states dictate that in order to sell a smartphone the government has to have access, just how long do you think it will take Apple put aside its righteousness (and caring for its users)? Of course, I don't expect we'll know about that decision for several years/decades after it's made.
 
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Funny, I don't see where reviewers say Apple lost its crown last year...and I don't see competing flagships at anywhere near half the price.
Come over here in the netherlands... huawei is bigger than Apple right now. Apple is old news, no youngster wants Apple unless their parents pays for it.
 
How does knowing that are Apple charging a higher price so they can maintain a higher profit margin make the phone any better?
You've reversed cause and effect... Higher profit margins don't make it better, making it better leads to higher profit margins.
That argument doesn't stand up. Imagine if every other phone was sold at cost and 95% of the World bought these Android phones. Now Apple would have 100% of the profits but 5% market share; would people still be talking about profits and be happy about that?

Profits and market share are not comparable.
Exactly, they aren't comparable. Market share of a hardware device matters to developers who want to sell software on that platform. Profits from hardware sales matter to the hardware manufacturer who wants to stay in business.

You just gave the classic "we'll lose a dollar on every unit, but make it up on volume" argument. Take your argument one step further-- imagine those other companies decided to give the product away for free. They'd have massive market share as people used them to shim short table legs because they're cheaper than wood, but that's not a sign that the product or the company is better.

If there's no profit, there's no reason to be in business. If there's negative profit, you can't stay in business. So yes, if one company had 5% market share but 100% of the profits, we'd be talking about how that was the one company that wasn't doomed and the financial press would be talking quite a bit about "the need for consolidation".

If we're heading toward a world where there are ever more Android makers, and only one other OS choice, then your scenario will be arriving very quickly.
 
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Well according to wikipedia, "Ren Zhengfei, a former deputy director of the People's Liberation Army engineering corp, founded Huawei in 1987 in Shenzhen."

Meh. Lots of US companies were founded by former military men and/or have huge military and government ties.

If you're worried about China, then it's probably already too late, since so many iPhone parts are sourced from there. If I were them, I'd sure have snuck something in by now. Or at the least, kept a copy of things like supposedly disposed of per-iPhone secure enclave seed values used during production.
 
I think you've stated my point pretty well, actually. Competition is not always good. My issue is with the word "always". Zune was a competitor to iPod, did nothing to make iPods better, and wasted resources that may have benefited me if they were applied elsewhere. It was a net loss to me (and, I think, the market in general).

If it had been a good product, and if it either forced a perceptible shift to Apple's products or offered a needed alternative for a significant segment of the market, then it would have supported the argument that sometimes competition is good.

But people have stopped thinking about what competition means or how/where it's useful. They talk about it like electrolytes: "it's what plants crave!".



The rest of this is just my naive analysis of the smartphone market, and where I think competition is meaningless or net negative, and where I think it would be likely to be "great". In other words, it's probably a good place to stop reading...

TL;DR: While I think there are places where competition can still be good for the consumer in the current environment, I think the place where competition would truly be welcome is in providing another alternative, most likely proprietary, OS.


When I look at Apple's iPhone profits, it tells me there is room for more competition in the smartphone market. When I look at Apple's share of the industry profits, it tells me that Yet Another Android Device isn't useful competition, and isn't inherently good for consumers. There are already multiple great Android products out there, and YAAD can really only serve to divide up the pittance that Samsung is making into more pieces.

In the short run, and maybe with some help from the beneficiary of some positive externalities (like the Chinese government), a new manufacturer may be able to burn their investment dollars and make real technical improvements, but in the long run you can't afford to keep innovating if you have no profit to invest and nobody will invest where there's no return. Then it becomes an ugly cost cutting wasteland as the players bite and scratch to be the last company standing.

Competing on hardware hasn't seemed to impact Apple or the market in any meaningful way, and there's no money left on the Android side for innovation on the scale that Apple can finance so nobody will seriously invest in it. Samsung/Huawei aren't competing with technical prowess, they're competing with market advantage (carrier contracts, access to China, etc).

Android, on the other hand, is an important competitor to iOS. It has, I believe, given a meaningful alternative to a significant segment of the market and has had an impact on Apple's designs.

So the place where competition is still vital, and where you can go if you covet a some of Apple's profits, is software. Innovation in Android have the potential to pull customers from iOS (and Apple). Problem is that those customers are divided among multiple handset makers who must share the same Android features but the most profit they can see from those new customers is the margin on their hardware sales which is nearing zero with each new YAAD. This is a recipe for a race to the bottom-- basically any improvement to Android makes the average handset worse while the (mostly indirect) profits and positive externalities flow to Google, not the hardware maker so aren't reinvested into the business.

Just to speculate further: maybe this is why Google put a toe back in the hardware market. I thought it was weird to compete with your OEMs, but maybe it's a hedge against all your OEMs suddenly closing up shop and cutting off your access to the market.

If you are saying that poor competition is like no competition at all, then I agree with you. Using the Zune example, that product was made by a company with no commitment and nothing to add to the music player market. It was entirely a defensive product, and that hardly ever works out well.

The phone market has shaped up as remarkably similar to the PC market as it evolved starting in the '80s. On the one side was the DOS/Windows market, where the OEMs were forced to compete on hardware specs and price alone because all of the computers worked the same way, creating a virtual commodity market for hardware chasing razor-thin margins. The casualty rate is going to be high in that sort of market. On the other side was Apple, selling its integrated hardware and software. That approach as supposed to be doomed to failure. And yet it isn't, not by a long shot.

As Apple has proven again and again, the ability to differentiate in a market is hugely important. It may never win a majority marketshare in units, but it can well win a majority in profits because consumers who tend to like the differentiation will actually pay for it. This is why marketshare is so unimportant for Apple, and "rank" is completely unimportant.

It's interesting that now, as you point out, Google is prepared to tread on its OEM's toes, just as Microsoft is treading on its OEMs with the Surface. I don't see that either of them fear the disappearance of their OEMs; as we saw in the PC market, when one goes under, another pops up. No I think it's because they see the attractiveness of the integrated approach that Apple has made so successful, and not a capturing marketshare, but profits.
 
If you are saying that poor competition is like no competition at all, then I agree with you. Using the Zune example, that product was made by a company with no commitment and nothing to add to the music player market. It was entirely a defensive product, and that hardly ever works out well.

The phone market has shaped up as remarkably similar to the PC market as it evolved starting in the '80s. On the one side was the DOS/Windows market, where the OEMs were forced to compete on hardware specs and price alone because all of the computers worked the same way, creating a virtual commodity market for hardware chasing razor-thin margins. The casualty rate is going to be high in that sort of market. On the other side was Apple, selling its integrated hardware and software. That approach as supposed to be doomed to failure. And yet it isn't, not by a long shot.

As Apple has proven again and again, the ability to differentiate in a market is hugely important. It may never win a majority marketshare in units, but it can well win a majority in profits because consumers who tend to like the differentiation will actually pay for it. This is why marketshare is so unimportant for Apple, and "rank" is completely unimportant.

It's interesting that now, as you point out, Google is prepared to tread on its OEM's toes, just as Microsoft is treading on its OEMs with the Surface. I don't see that either of them fear the disappearance of their OEMs; as we saw in the PC market, when one goes under, another pops up. No I think it's because they see the attractiveness of the integrated approach that Apple has made so successful, and not a capturing marketshare, but profits.
Yeah, pretty much. I think I'm going a bit further than that though-- I think poor competition is worse than no competition. And I think misdirected competition is no better than poorly executed competition.

Zune was a waste of good resources. Another Android device, I fear, will weaken Android as a competitor to iOS and relax the incentive for Apple to innovate, leading to a net negative impact on the market.

I think the PC analogy is sound. As you've said, Apple may be 3rd or 4th or 5th in marketshare with their products, but if that's the share of the market willing to pay money for something then they've done it right.

I may be off the mark with why Google is back in the hardware game. I think Microsoft is doing it to remind people what their OS can do if it isn't run on lowed common denominator hardware. There is some integration between HW/SW, but they could have done that by working closely with an OEM, as Google has done with their Tango stuff. The Pixel phones feel different in the marketplace than the Surface does though-- Surface shines among its Windows competitors, Pixel hasn't made that kind of splash. Maybe Google is just iterating toward perfection, but my (deeply speculative) thought was that they were just learning how to make and market a phone so they could turn that pipe on if they needed to. They sold off their hardware expertise from Mot, didn't they?

Samsung and Huawei both have the ability to create their own OS if they chose to. That would leave Google with nothing but also-rans.
 
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Yeah, pretty much. I think I'm going a bit further than that though-- I think poor competition is worse than no competition. And I think misdirected competition is no better than poorly executed competition.

Zune was a waste of good resources. Another Android device, I fear, will weaken Android as a competitor to iOS and relax the incentive for Apple to innovate, leading to a net negative impact on the market.

I think the PC analogy is sound. As you've said, Apple may be 3rd or 4th or 5th in marketshare with their products, but if that's the share of the market willing to pay money for something then they've done it right.

I may be off the mark with why Google is back in the hardware game. I think Microsoft is doing it to remind people what their OS can do if it isn't run on lowed common denominator hardware. There is some integration between HW/SW, but they could have done that by working closely with an OEM, as Google has done with their Tango stuff. The Pixel phones feel different in the marketplace than the Surface does though-- Surface shines among its Windows competitors, Pixel hasn't made that kind of splash. Maybe Google is just iterating toward perfection, but my (deeply speculative) thought was that they were just learning how to make and market a phone so they could turn that pipe on if they needed to. They sold off their hardware expertise from Mot, didn't they?

Samsung and Huawei both have the ability to create their own OS if they chose to. That would leave Google with nothing but also-rans.

Android can be morphed, as Amazon has done for the Fire, but it's a risky strategy because of the need to create a compatible software base. Amazon is probably the only company that could throw enough resources and leverage at it to succeed but it isn't clear that even they managed it. So I think the chances of any Android OEM trying to truly go it alone, even with the head start of a version of Android, is pretty slim, and the chances of success are slimmer still.

What Google is doing and why they are doing it is never easy to work out. They shoot out in all directions at once, but I see them having a real profit motive in offering an integrated product. Will they be good at it, though? It was a real cultural issue for Microsoft, but it seems they are closer to getting it right.
 
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No problem. Just rate the profit margin.

Margin doesnt mean top phone maker or seller in the world. Get used to it these phone companies because are here to stay and will be making the same build quality as Apple does but at a much cheaper price.
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Amazing what you can do when you've had the success and back breaking work of others handed to you.

Yeah so true. Apple is good at it as well.
 
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If Apple is the leader of the thinnest phone, (for a while) that would denote Apple rising to the top of the list, not dropping, as the title of the article states.

In regards to the subject at hand, I am not overly concerned about thinness. I care more about functionally of hardware and software.
 
So basically, it's a state-sponsored smartphone that also plays nice with WeChat and Apple is completely effed in China now, grim.
All of them are state owned as stated in the communist manifesto of Carl Marx developed by the British Royalty and the Rothchild bankers.
Well according to wikipedia, "Ren Zhengfei, a former deputy director of the People's Liberation Army engineering corp, founded Huawei in 1987 in Shenzhen."

Can't think of a better person to trust my personal information with.

So basically, it's a state-sponsored smartphone that also plays nice with WeChat and Apple is completely effed in China now, grim.
 
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