Apple Set to Appeal EU Tax Ruling This Week

[Thunderhawks]

This warm up of an old story has been discussed ad nauseum on MR.

People are split about only to pay what is due and since Apple is rich they should pay more, regardless of the legal set up.

This will be a 10 plus year fight, then Ireland and Apple (and other companies who do this tax set up) will get a slap on the wrist and pay a little money.

Then everybody hugs each other and new tax loopholes will be exploited.

Nothing to see here , let's move on.

 

[CB1234]

Ireland broke the law and Apple paid a ridiculously small amount of taxes - so low that if you don't believe this is suspicious, you must either be insane or you're pretending.

Or perhaps I am just a smart businessman....

 

[niun]

So your problem is with the taxation system, not Apple.

Except they didnt get "better deals than anyone else"
Abbott Labs
Adobe
Facebook
Google
General Electric
Johnson & Johnson
Microsoft
Oracle
Starbucks
Yahoo
all took advantage of what is commonly termed as "The double Irish" Apple has been doing it since the 80's and prior to the E.U even existing. Therefore they got grandfathered in after E.U. tax law took effect. You cant charge someone a tax rate for years......nay, decades, then after the fact, when you dont like it anymore, come back and say, oh, we want more money. Ummm, No. I paid what you told me to pay based on the law. If you dont like the law, change it, dont say we cheated. The E.U. knew very well what has been going on, and allowed it, and is still allowing it with other companies, so its not a Apple only "special deal" They just make more money.
People keep saying,"What if your neighbor got a tax deal like that" Well, conversely, what if the government showed up to your house and said, "Yeah, you know how we said your tax rate has been 12% for the last 10 years? Well, we appreciate you paying what we said you owed, and it seems you filled out the forms correctly and didnt lie,but........we've now decided you should pay 35%, not from now on, but for the last 10 years. So, that will be $12.5 million please" Im sure everyone here would say, "Oh, ok, well fair is fair. If you think now, after the fact I should pay more, ok then"
Come on.

Apple got a slightly better rate for one of their subsidiaries though didn't it... Not 12% over the last 10 years..
0.005% to 1% over the last 5 years.
In August, the commission said a sweetheart deal devised by the Irish government had allowed Apple to pay tax of just 0.005% in 2014 and an average rate of 1% over many years.
That is what the EU is targeting.

 

[Zirel]

Drop the prices of apple products in EU and I might have some sympathy ....otherwise pay up, I have to

It is not their products that are expensive, it's the euro that's worthless and the sales tax that is gigantic.

Deal with it. The social state costs money.

 

[MH01]

So it hasn't been proven that anybody broke the law but Apple has billions in cash so they should just pay more in tax just because. How stupid is that. Anybody here pay more than they are legally obligated to? Corporations shouldn't even pay tax. Those costs only get passed on to the consumers anyway.

that made me laugh, pay more in tax cause they have more money.....can I ask what you think the deal here is?

 

[niun]

It is not their products that are expensive, it's the euro that's worthless and the sales tax that is gigantic.

Deal with it. The social state costs money.

Oh come on now... Even the most die hard Apple Kool Aider has to admit that the new products are outrageously overpriced for what they are.

 

[MH01]

It is not their products that are expensive, it's the euro that's worthless and the sales tax that is gigantic.

Deal with it. The social state costs money.

So, in which country was the new macbook pro cheaper? This is global issue, prices just keep going up.

 

[Porco]

To quote their own T-shirt:

"AT OUR BEST

We give more than we take. "

Hmm. I guess Apple are not at their best in the EU then...

I don't know who is technically correct in law (Irish and/or EU law), but if Apple (or any company even slightly like it) is only effectively paying 0.5% tax, something is very, very wrong.

 

[StevieD100]

Well if you can afford a new Macbook pro in EU.....you are among the rich Elite

That's why I bought my 2012 MBP while on a business trip to the USA. Delaware has no sales tax and is not too far a drive from DC.
If I upgrade I may do the same. The savings just about cover the cost of the airfare.

 

[Keniutek]

The bigger the company, the bigger the scams...

 

[The Mercurian]

Except they didnt get "better deals than anyone else"
Abbott Labs
Adobe
Facebook
Google
General Electric
Johnson & Johnson
Microsoft
Oracle
Starbucks
Yahoo
all took advantage of what is commonly termed as "The double Irish" Apple has been doing it since the 80's and prior to the E.U even existing. Therefore they got grandfathered in after E.U. tax law took effect. You cant charge someone a tax rate for years......nay, decades, then after the fact, when you dont like it anymore, come back and say, oh, we want more money. Ummm, No. I paid what you told me to pay based on the law. If you dont like the law, change it, dont say we cheated. The E.U. knew very well what has been going on, and allowed it, and is still allowing it with other companies, so its not a Apple only "special deal" They just make more money.
People keep saying,"What if your neighbor got a tax deal like that" Well, conversely, what if the government showed up to your house and said, "Yeah, you know how we said your tax rate has been 12% for the last 10 years? Well, we appreciate you paying what we said you owed, and it seems you filled out the forms correctly and didnt lie,but........we've now decided you should pay 35%, not from now on, but for the last 10 years. So, that will be $12.5 million please" Im sure everyone here would say, "Oh, ok, well fair is fair. If you think now, after the fact I should pay more, ok then"
Come on.

Except this isn't what happened. This was more than the double Irish tax arrangement. Apple added some twist to the double Irish that it alone was allowed to use by agreement with the Irish Revenue service : http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...le-profits-to-be-shifted-around-35009282.html

 

[gnasher729]

Oh come on now... Even the most die hard Apple Kool Aider has to admit that the new products are outrageously overpriced for what they are.

First, as a public service I can inform you that the 900 members of the Jones cult in Guayana who committed suicide did _not_ drink Kool Aid. Second, comparing people to the members of suicide cult is disgusting. Third, insulting people and then saying "even they must admit" is a lame old rhetoric trick that doesn't work; it just shows that you must have a very, very weak or actually no argument at all. Nobody falls for it.

If Apple products were overpriced, nobody would buy them. And in the UK the high prices are due to 20% VAT and the fact that the UK£ dropped around 20% compared to about everything.

 

[bob24]

Except they didnt get "better deals than anyone else"
Abbott Labs
Adobe
Facebook
Google
General Electric
Johnson & Johnson
Microsoft
Oracle
Starbucks
Yahoo
all took advantage of what is commonly termed as "The double Irish" Apple has been doing it since the 80's and prior to the E.U even existing. Therefore they got grandfathered in after E.U. tax law took effect. You cant charge someone a tax rate for years......nay, decades, then after the fact, when you dont like it anymore, come back and say, oh, we want more money. Ummm, No. I paid what you told me to pay based on the law. If you dont like the law, change it, dont say we cheated. The E.U. knew very well what has been going on, and allowed it, and is still allowing it with other companies, so its not a Apple only "special deal" They just make more money.
People keep saying,"What if your neighbor got a tax deal like that" Well, conversely, what if the government showed up to your house and said, "Yeah, you know how we said your tax rate has been 12% for the last 10 years? Well, we appreciate you paying what we said you owed, and it seems you filled out the forms correctly and didnt lie,but........we've now decided you should pay 35%, not from now on, but for the last 10 years. So, that will be $12.5 million please" Im sure everyone here would say, "Oh, ok, well fair is fair. If you think now, after the fact I should pay more, ok then"
Come on.

I don't know if the deal is better than what other companies might have, but there is a clear legal argument to say it is specific to Apple which is the key point in this case.

From a legal perspective I believe what the EU is disputing is not Apple's use of "The double Irish with Dutch sandwich" as such (which btw is being phased out by Ireland due to political pressure from the US and other EU countries). It is more the specific tax rulings issued by the Irish tax authorities to Apple allowing the the company to book the profits it was fuelling through Ireland in certain ways specific to the company (those rulings are specific to Apple as they are based on accounting practices suggested by Apple - possibly with the help of Irish officials who helped design them in order to achieve a specific effective tax rate - and no other company could have used the exact same scheme as it was approved specifically for Apple).

Of course in the background you have an attack on tax avoidance strategies which is more political, but solely from this case perspective the EU does have a specific legal argument against Apple and Ireland.

 

[niun]

First, as a public service I can inform you that the 900 members of the Jones cult in Guayana who committed suicide did _not_ drink Kool Aid. Second, comparing people to the members of suicide cult is disgusting. Third, insulting people and then saying "even they must admit" is a lame old rhetoric trick that doesn't work; it just shows that you must have a very, very weak or actually no argument at all. Nobody falls for it.

If Apple products were overpriced, nobody would buy them. And in the UK the high prices are due to 20% VAT and the fact that the UK£ dropped around 20% compared to about everything.

Do what now? Jones cult? Eh? Insulting people?
Did you read something I didn't write?

Also, overpriced for what they are.. Even in $$, pre sales tax.

 

[MH01]

First, as a public service I can inform you that the 900 members of the Jones cult in Guayana who committed suicide did _not_ drink Kool Aid. Second, comparing people to the members of suicide cult is disgusting. Third, insulting people and then saying "even they must admit" is a lame old rhetoric trick that doesn't work; it just shows that you must have a very, very weak or actually no argument at all. Nobody falls for it.

If Apple products were overpriced, nobody would buy them. And in the UK the high prices are due to 20% VAT and the fact that the UK£ dropped around 20% compared to about everything.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/diehard

Your reply is kinda way off topic. Maybe re-read what the poster wrote?

 

[Rocketman]

Apple should use the process of going outside of norms by the EU to sue them for damages and punitive damages. Apple should get paid for being illegally brutalised by an illegal claim by a semi-governmental organization.

 

[Jsameds]

Head over to England, Apple. We'll be out of the EU shortly and will be able to offer you a sweet tax deal instead!

 

[niun]

Head over to England, Apple. We'll be out of the EU shortly and will be able to offer you a sweet tax deal instead!

Shame that Apple would actually need that sweet, sweet EU access for making mucho mucho $.
Hence why Ireland was the best of both worlds - if they'd not screwed things up with the insane tax deals.

 

[rikscha]

And you're suggesting that a supposedly sovereign nation shouldn't have the option to give a company a lower tax rate as an incentive to build a factory?


Correct. This is why Britain voted to leave the EU. Instead of trying to control tax rates in member states, the EU should just propose that it has the right to apply an EU level tax rather than meddling in the affairs of member states.

Greece is tango uniform from years of mismanaging its economy, while Ireland has one of, if not the, fastest growing economies in the EU, and somehow they are the ones being mismanaged. . . It's humorous to me how these decisions always go in favor of socialism and never in the direction of the market.

Yes, because thats not how the EU works and each member has to adhere to the same rules - simple as that.

The UK benefitted from this many, many times whenever British companies competed for business in other EU states - fair chances for everyone involved but somehow the government always fails to communicate how EU actually works and how people benefit from it.

I am getting tired of those small minded island monkeys.

 

[Pike R. Alpha]

I think you may be mixing up sales tax with corporate tax. If you buy an iPad in Spain you do pay Spanish sales tax, or in Britain, British sales tax etc. What this is about is not sales tax but tax on corporate profit.

Also I think you are thinking more aobut sales tax. Regardless, it is one of the fundamental properties of the EU that a company can operate in each country but only pay tax on corporate profits in its home country, rather than having to set up a company in every country. The benefit is that if I set up a website for my Granny to sell cookies, she can sell to all of Europe without having to set up a company structure in each country, and without having to make 28 different tax returns.

So be careful here. What you are arguing for would put Granny out of business, but have little effect on big companies

Of course I am aware of the difference of VAT et all, and corporate tax. I just want companies to pay the tax that they own, based on where the goods end up being delivered. Just like the VAT and other added taxes.

Don't forget that Apple already has companies in most EU countries (think Apple stores) so that is not the problem.

And if the TAX rules for granny (your example) would have been the same as for Apple, granny would be more than happy. Unfortunately for granny. This is not the case. She and her company needs to pay the full amount. That is not right, and basically the problem we are facing here i.e. Apple and other big companies getting unfair tax advantages.

 

[nebo1ss]

How about just pay the taxes?

Perhaps the courts should just double it.

 

[niun]

while Ireland has one of, if not the, fastest growing economies in the EU, and somehow they are the ones being mismanaged. . . It's humorous to me how these decisions always go in favor of socialism and never in the direction of the market.

Wasn't Ireland bailed out of a banking / economic crisis with billions of EU cash?
Then to turn around and start doing shady deals that flat out go against EU competition laws..

Also I remember people complaining that if Apple paid the 13billion it would result in Apple stiffing the EU by raising prices on it's products.
They appear to be doing that regardless.

 

[CB1234]

Do what now? Jones cult? Eh? Insulting people?
Did you read something I didn't write?

Also, overpriced for what they are.. Even in $$, pre sales tax.

It's no one's fault, if you are poor.....

 

[Jsameds]

Wasn't Ireland bailed out of a banking / economic crisis with billions of EU cash?
Then to turn around and start doing shady deals that flat out go against EU competition laws.

The bailout was just a few years ago, the tax deal dates back to the 1980's.

 

[niun]

The bailout was just a few years ago, the tax deal dates back to the 1980's.

Jeeebus...

In August, the commission said a sweetheart deal devised by the Irish government had allowed Apple to pay tax of just 0.005% in 2014 and an average rate of 1% over many years.

This IS NOT ABOUT the low tax rate Apple have been paying for years - as do many many other companies in Ireland.. This is about the SWEETHEART DEALS Apple has been getting that go against the EU completion laws.

It's no one's fault, if you are poor.....

What does income have to do with overpriced products?