Apple's Face ID Turns Android Makers Away From Under-Screen Fingerprint Recognition

[MH01]

This is how I feel. Under Jobs ruling, I felt like there was competition and innovation. Now it just seems like they are churning out ideas just for the sake of "testing it out". The original Pixel had a better camera than the iphone 7, and a faster fingerprint reader. And it seems to be the same thing again this year, with the Pixel 2 vs iP8, with a better camera and the fastest fingerprint reader on a mobile device. Add in Google's AI and machine learning, it makes the iPhone X seem boring. Jobs would have been pushing innovation at this years iPhone event. Instead, there was FaceID. Cook has been a let down in my opinion. Its time someone else pushes for competition.

Cook is great for Bringing in the profits, though to achieve that year on year, innovation is suffering. He was lucky cause he knew he could milk jobs products for many years, and just keep fragmenting them.....slapping "pro" or other gimmicks to raise profits margins to compensate sales volumes, this alas.....can only go on for so long..... The MacBook Pro already seen as a negative update, The X, lovely looking device with some really questionable decisions that Jobs would not have let out the door. For me Apple are a Sony in 2017 - and still remind us how they created the walkman......u can't stop innovating..... and lead. Sure you make more $$$ ..... sure you attract other fans.....sure you branch into other industries.....but how about doing what you do best? as apple forgotten this? I think they have, and alas without jobs they are just another massive corporation these days....though more expansive than ever, cause cook is compensating sales volumes with increased prices

 

[0lf]

You'd trust an Apple executive to come out at the keynote and say "Sorry guys, we made this full screen phone but couldn't get TouchID working so you're getting the next best thing!"? If so I've got some magic beans for you, bargain price!

Looks like conspiracy theory too me.

There are reports than pyramids were made by aliens.
Archeologists say they were built by men. But, if they had found evidence of alien construction they would not have told the world
Conclusion : pyramids were made by aliens

 

[ColdShadow]

AMD Ryzen sucks , why not threadripper ?

no it doesn't.

i'm pretty sure Apple has also succeeded in an under display touchID solution.. they just chose not to use it in the X


http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...edly-push-iphone-production-to-september.html

https://www.macrumors.com/2017/05/26/tsmc-iphone-8-touch-id-integrated-display/

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...-for-touch-id-beneath-the-iphone-display.html
.
fwiw

I’m pretty sure if they had it ready they would have used it in iPhone X.
All rumours and articles prior to announcement of iPhone X were pointing to challenges and difficulties doing so.
Why would they invest so much time and cash on something,develop it and then just drop it.
[doublepost=1507559299][/doublepost]

And no one will need to.

The iPhone X is released at the end of the year. The S9 next year. Compare the two side by side when that happens. Test every use case imaginable.

You will have your answer.

But according to rumors there is no going back from Face ID..

 

[Regime2008]

First I tried Android 1.6 in 2009.
Then 2.1.
Then again year after year after year.
Nothing changed.
Just same laggy ultra complicated bullshіt since 1.6.
Who needs that?
How can one NOT hate that?
Why do we even talk about that here?

That's odd cause that's how i feel about iPhone. Too simple, no options, no features, every year in a row. Just copy what every single Android has had for years. Give it another try since you referenced the oldest versions of Android. Doubt you have used any recent Android's since 2009...

 

[Phonephreak]

You'd trust an Apple executive to come out at the keynote and say "Sorry guys, we made this full screen phone but couldn't get TouchID working so you're getting the next best thing!"? If so I've got some magic beans for you, bargain price!

Crazy thing is. It would still sell millions

 

[rippley5150]

you will die before listening to all those 30,000 songs anyway ...

Yeah, I know but I'd still want it lol

 

[flat five]

no it doesn't.

I’m pretty sure if they had it ready they would have used it in iPhone X.
All rumours and articles prior to announcement of iPhone X were pointing to challenges and difficulties doing so.
Why would they invest so much time and cash on something,develop it and then just drop it.

they developed touchID in case they couldn't get faceID working acceptably or secure enough?.. fwiw, they likely spend more money on R&D of ideas that we'll never see in an actual product than the ones we do see.


also, touchID under display is no different than touchID button as far as user experience is concerned.. it's the same exact thing.
they probably wanted to do something new and improved as far as experience is concerned.
[doublepost=1507561010][/doublepost]

But according to rumors there is no going back from Face ID..

that's not true.
there was a Kuo rumor saying if faceID wasn't accepted by customers, Apple would use touchID under screen in future phones.
it was a story here at macRumors front page.

 

[deanthedev]

That's odd cause that's how i feel about iPhone. Too simple, no options, no features, every year in a row. Just copy what every single Android has had for years. Give it another try since you referenced the oldest versions of Android. Doubt you have used any recent Android's since 2009...

I have Oreo on my Pixel. Audio latency is still present so Android remains utterly useless for music production. My S7 also suffered from this as does my S8.

 

[Regime2008]

I have Oreo on my Pixel. Audio latency is still present so Android remains utterly useless for music production. My S7 also suffered from this as does my S8.

You have a Pixel? According to your post history, it seems otherwise... Lemme guess, you have a pixel running an OS that was released years before the pixel ever came into existence? Like pre Android 6.0 or something? Audio Latency for android has been addressed for quite some time now. I hate to be that guy, but based on your post history I don't think you have used the devices you have mentioned. If I am wrong, I am sorry. It's just odd you mentioned two things that seemed off.... What kinda music production do you do? I know that android supports more audio interfaces than apple does, and supports many more audio file formats. This is what brings up a red flag for me.

EDIT: http://superpowered.com/images/android-audio-latency-measurements.png
These are older devices, all running android 5.0 and 6.0. only 5.3ms as the highest latency, and 2.6ms on the lowest latency. Sooo.....?

 

[bbkr]

They first had Touch ID in 2013, and it showed how far ahead they were

Sorry to shatter your dreams, but first phone equipped with fingerprint sensor was Toshiba G500 in... 2007. This was dumb swipe-type scanner to unlock phone and I don't think there was any API for applications to access it. But even if you are thinking about TouchID as software+hardware integrated identity management solution you are still wrong because Motorola Atrix in 2011 was the first phone utilizing built-in fingerprint scanner to authorize some operations in applications.

Apple likes to master some existing solutions (and they do it extremely well), but they also tend to present it as something innovative (which is complete marketing BS).

 

[flat five]

Apple likes to master some existing solutions (and they do it extremely well), but they also tend to present it as something innovative (which is complete marketing BS).

innovation ,while related to certain degrees, does not mean the same thing as invention.

(fwiw)

 

[profets]

Sorry to shatter your dreams, but first phone equipped with fingerprint sensor was Toshiba G500 in... 2007. This was dumb swipe-type scanner to unlock phone and I don't think there was any API for applications to access it. But even if you are thinking about TouchID as software+hardware integrated identity management solution you are still wrong because Motorola Atrix in 2011 was the first phone utilizing built-in fingerprint scanner to authorize some operations in applications.

Apple likes to master some existing solutions (and they do it extremely well), but they also tend to present it as something innovative (which is complete marketing BS).

Not a problem, you didn’t shatter any dreams.

I’m well aware that fingerprint sensors existed far prior to Touch ID. The point being that they were nearly unusable and Touch ID truly changed the game.

Touch ID, is one of those times that the word innovative was truly accurate and far from marketing BS.

 

[0lf]

All rumours and articles prior to announcement of iPhone X were pointing to challenges and difficulties doing so.

Most rumors and articles prior to iPhone 4s launch pointed to a tapered design.

 

[symphara]

Apple supports AR, so now AR is completely useless?

Well, Microsoft and Google support AR too - Google even had a cringe-inducing demo during their presentation. It's still pretty useless, because nobody knows what to do with it. You see, unlike some, I don't feel the need to behave like a corporate lackey. I tell it as I see it.

FaceID mapping technology is less exciting than a touchID button?
Oh, sorry, you mean, Google didn’t make it and have no alternative to it, so it is not exciting and useless.
It not only that this thing will unlock a phone, in the future this tech is going to have an amazing impact

For unlocking, for sure. It's a more convoluted, awkward method. For anything else, I don't see much applicability of this face mapping technology. It's not that it's less exciting, I don't find it exciting at all. It's like you trying to sell me a car that can bake cookies. You think baking cookies is really great, I just don't think it's needed in that context.

Alright then, off you go back to your Treo
(because it would probably still be your phone now, if Apple didn’t release that “shi#tty useless” iPhone first

I don't take marching orders from the likes of you. And I had a much cooler phone than the iPhone many years before this overpriced fashion accessory came into existence.

Reading your reply reminds me one thing about iPhones, something always gave this bad vibe about them: their owners and their opinions. Buying one these days feels more and more like joining an awful cult.

 

[somethingelsefl]

“Revolutionary”
“Others are following”

Wait a second! I’ve been reading these forums forever and I thought Apple doesn’t innovate anymore. I’m totally confused...

this is so on point it's not even funny.

 

[kdarling]

They first had Touch ID in 2013, and it showed how far ahead they were when Samsung rushed to add a fingerprint sensor in the Galaxy S5 the following year and it was nearly unusable.

Apple was "far ahead" because they snuck in and bought the fingerprint sensor supplier that everyone had been using since the turn of the century.

When that company showed off a new small and fast sensor, Apple saw a chance to lock out everyone else for a while by buying them only for themselves. Otherwise, everyone would've had access to the new sensor.

--

Apple did something similar with Liquid Metal. Other phone makers like Samsung had actually been using LM for hinges and ding-resistant bezels (and even for an entire luxury phone chassis) since around 2002.

But Apple jumped in and bought an exclusive for consumer electronics, and keeps renewing that exclusivity... without ever using LM except in their SIM eject tool. What a waste.

--

Ditto with Apple buying Fingerworks. The real pity there is that handicapped people relied on those keyboards and other input devices. But Apple shut down all production.

 

[LordVic]

Apple was "far ahead" because they snuck in and bought the fingerprint sensor supplier that everyone had been using since the turn of the century.

When that company showed off a new small and fast sensor, Apple saw a chance to lock out everyone else for a while. Otherwise, everyone would've had access to the new sensor.

--

Apple did something similar with Liquid Metal. Other phone makers like Samsung had been using LM for hinges and ding-resistant bezels (and even for an entire luxury phone chassis) since around 2002.

But Apple jumped in and bought an exclusive for consumer electronics, and keeps renewing that exlusivity... without ever using LM except in that SIM eject tool.

The TouchID thing was an interesting "**** you" to the smartphone market.

Motorolla, was allegedly planning on using the TouchID tech in their phones of the time. They had even chosen the location on the back. This is why the Moto's of the time featured a finger "divot" on the back. the rumours were that it would be the location of the fingerprint sensor.

then the company who did create the sensors for TouchID got snatched up by Apple, and all other companies locked out. It's also why Samsung's fingerprint sensor on the S5 was pretty weak. they had to go back and use the existing fingerprint technology.

Apple likes to take credit for innovating TouchID. Many fans like to claim Apple invented touchID. neither of these are true. Apple purchased the tech and integrated it into their phones and locked everyone else out, until they could re-engineer their fingerprint sensors on their own.

Apple does this. They like to take credit for innovation that they were not necessarily directly responsible for. They also like to use their financial clout to lock out others from using tech from some 3rd parties.

Anther example of this was actually the multi-touch tech that ended up in the phone. Apple didn't invent multi-touch capable capacitive technology. That was done by a company called FingerWorks, who at the time made assistave technology for the disabled. Using multi-touch capacitive technology.

Apple swooped in, bought it and then used the tech for the track pads on Macs and then tweaking it for displays on smartphones.

listen, this isn't to say that Apple didn't do anything innovative. they absolutely did. They were able to take this technology that they bought and make great products out of them. But they bought the core of the tech and locked others out until they could come up with their own implementations.

I have a hard time giving credit to Apple for these sorts of actions. Especially since they feign like they did the work all by themselves in a vacuum. I like APple products. Have a few myself, But Apples business practices are rife with reality distortion field commentary to imply to the consumer they do things nobody else can. When often, nobody else can because APple used their financial wealth and position to create prohibitive barriers to others.

what bothers me most about the fingerworks aquisition is that once it was done, Apple made sure to shut down and close the Assistive technology division and pulled the technology off the market for those who actually did use it for their disabilities.

 

[melendezest]

I don't need to justify anything either, this is a discussion board where people like you and me share their opinions and mine just seem to be different from yours. I am a drama free person, I buy things that I like and suite my needs and don't bother looking at things that are not for me. Neither do I cry or moan about stuff that are not made to satisfy my needs. There are plenty do go around and Apple is not the only company that makes stuff. But of course, this forum board would be nothing if it wasn't spiced up by some drama and some hate. We are all used to it by now.
Apple does stuff/decisions that makes sense from their business point of view and so far it has worked quite well. Of course there will be people who will not understand it or simply just be unhappy. It is the balanced nature of how things work in this universe. And believe me when I say it, if they weren't doing things right, people would not be handing them their hard earned cash, contrary to what some would want us to believe, that people buy Apple stuff because it is a trend. That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

You find the idea idiotic perhaps because you're an Apple fan. But Apple has always relied on trendiness. Hell, one of the definitions of the term "trend" relates directly to fashion, an industry in which no one can deny Apple is dipping more than their toes into.

No one is questioning whether Apple is doing the right thing for them, their profits speak for themselves. But there is a distinct shift in who Apple's marketing is targeting, hence the complaining, moaning, or whatever you want to call it. When a lot of a keynote's focus and advertising is devoted to, say, emoji or watch bands is one of the few examples of how idiotic it is to say that Apple does not rely on trendiness to sell their products.

 

[EdT]

Decided to look as far back as I could in the iPhone Forum thread, and it goes back to the literal beginning:

https://forums.macrumors.com/forums/iphone.99/page-3063

Look at the expectations, the assumptions, the 'that doesn't matter' and the 'it doesn't do X' replies from June of 2007. You may want to skip ahead a few months and see people either complaining or extolling what Apple and Steve were doing.

I was not an Apple user at this time and didn't follow the iPhone drama, but it's amusing to see how the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[rjohnstone]

Apple was "far ahead" because they snuck in and bought the fingerprint sensor supplier that everyone had been using since the turn of the century.

When that company showed off a new small and fast sensor, Apple saw a chance to lock out everyone else for a while by buying them only for themselves. Otherwise, everyone would've had access to the new sensor.

Yep... that was AuthenTec.
Their sensors were used in many higher end laptops and they worked wonderfully.
IBM/Lenovo had to drop the inclusion of a FP sensor shortly after the purchase as Apple locked out the entire market.
Pretty dick move if you ask me.
[doublepost=1507570940][/doublepost]

The TouchID thing was an interesting "**** you" to the smartphone market.

Motorolla, was allegedly planning on using the TouchID tech in their phones of the time. They had even chosen the location on the back. This is why the Moto's of the time featured a finger "divot" on the back. the rumours were that it would be the location of the fingerprint sensor.

then the company who did create the sensors for TouchID got snatched up by Apple, and all other companies locked out. It's also why Samsung's fingerprint sensor on the S5 was pretty weak. they had to go back and use the existing fingerprint technology.

The sensor in the Motorola Atrix was made by AuthenTec and while it was a swipe type sensor, it worked very well.
It was the only Motorola to get it before Apple locked everyone out.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Samsung's iris scanner (something that has remained exclusive to Samsung and keeps improving) and under the screen fingerprint reader can be a perfect match.

Yeah, zero security + zero security = zero security.
[doublepost=1507572715][/doublepost]

i don't give a damn about facts, i only trust trolls in the macrumors forums. face id is going to be a total flop, just like the removal of the 3.5 mm jack. not even google will try to adapt this tech in its pixel 3.

/s

You DO realize, of course, that the next Google Pixel phone will NOT have a 3.5 mm jack. It has already been announced:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/5/16428570/google-pixel-2-no-headphone-jack-apple-wireless-future


So, maybe you'd like to revise that prediction regarding Google and Facial Recognition?

 

[Jimrod]

Looks like conspiracy theory too me.

There are reports than pyramids were made by aliens.
Archeologists say they were built by men. But, if they had found evidence of alien construction they would not have told the world
Conclusion : pyramids were made by aliens

Nah, my main point was that all the rumours said Apple were struggling with TouchID under the screen, the same rumours that were right about everything else. Then people believe any line a marketing exec tells them, when basically no publicly listed company would risk saying anything that was negative in a worldwide launch. It's just common sense, we'll never know for sure but pretty reliable rumours indicated FaceID was due to current technical limitations of TouchID rather than because it was better, as the launch failure of it may indicate!

 

[Cartoonkid]

There were multiple reports that they wanted Touch ID under the screen and couldn't make it work. Subsequent to that, reports come out that they never wanted it anyway. You call that "trying desperately to trash Apple"; I call it being cognizant of how the narrative has changed.

re: the patent, I mentioned it as an aside. It shows that it's something Apple at least thought about. I never said it "proved" that they intended to implement that tech on the X.



If you'd read through the rest of the thread, you'd see that I'm not taking anything as gospel - not the earlier reports, and not the current ones, either. I just find it suspicious how the narrative (from Kuo, among others) has changed in a way that just so happens to be face-saving for Apple.

I read the entire post, and possibly many of the same rumors that you did, leading up to the new unveiling last month. And I don't disagree that the stories (calling them narratives is a little generous) from Kuo and others changed.

But your previous post implied that Apple failed to successfully implement the new Touch ID. I'm simply saying that, until Apple comes out and says that they tried but couldn't, there's no way for any of us to know that was their intent.

 

[deanthedev]

You have a Pixel? According to your post history, it seems otherwise... Lemme guess, you have a pixel running an OS that was released years before the pixel ever came into existence? Like pre Android 6.0 or something? Audio Latency for android has been addressed for quite some time now. I hate to be that guy, but based on your post history I don't think you have used the devices you have mentioned. If I am wrong, I am sorry. It's just odd you mentioned two things that seemed off.... What kinda music production do you do? I know that android supports more audio interfaces than apple does, and supports many more audio file formats. This is what brings up a red flag for me.

EDIT: http://superpowered.com/images/android-audio-latency-measurements.png
These are older devices, all running android 5.0 and 6.0. only 5.3ms as the highest latency, and 2.6ms on the lowest latency. Sooo.....?

So much wrong here I don’t know where to start.

First off, thanks for listing an audio latency test by a company that’s trying to sell developers their audio SDK. There’s no bias there, AT ALL.

Interestingly, the numbers they get are the same as they get over at source.android.com. The test they use is flawed. They’re doing a loop back test to measure latency from the input through your App and back out to the headphone jack. In other words, of the numerous places latency can occur they choose the easiest test. And then pass off that measurement as if it applies everywhere.

What about latency with multiple Apps? What if I’m taking audio from one App, applying an effect with another App and then finally recording it in a 3rd App? What if I’m not using the line-in (mic in) input and instead use a multi channel ADC connected through USB? What if I’m not using the headphone output and use the DAC in the same multi channel USB interface? What if I’m mixing and matching different combinations of inputs and outputs?

Why are you bringing up file formats? That has nothing to do with whether or not a platform is good for music production. Supports more audio interfaces? Curious, can you connect a 24 channel interface and actually record 24 channels of audio on any Android device? iOS is compliant with USB Audio, so literally any interface a musician might own will automatically work. No drivers or extra software required.

Finally we have Oreo, that Google has specifically modified to deal with audio latency by adding a new API. Seems kind of odd for Google to make changes to Android to fix a problem you claim doesn’t exist. Like they have tried to do multiple times in the past, with little success.

Sorry to be that guy, but it appears you know absolutely nothing about music production on mobile devices.

 

[WarHeadz]

Because newer is always better, isn't it?

What a ridiculous argument....