Apple's Greg Joswiak: No Plans to Merge Mac and iPad

[Darth Tulhu]

The majority of my day is spent in 3D design and visualisation............... with email, web, office, adobe apps, evernote, todoist all running in the background. There is no way on the planet I can do this on an ipad.

Right now for example I am using 19gb Ram and only doing some basic stuff. This can easily hit 32gb+ and also I can utilise fully the 8gb on the GPU I have [which needs upgrading].

I love my ipad and use it for what it is - a tablet, and use the pencil extensively. Even with the M1 and if it had MacOS on it, it still would fall well short of the computing power I use. M1 is a consumer solution for low end tasks still, thats why it is not in the Pro computers, which we all know will get a more powerful chip.

I guess the term "truckloads" you used was more accurate than I could tell. You're doing heavy lifting.

Yes, sounds like for what you do, the iPad is not the right tool for the job, and falls outside the "I want macOS on an iPad" argument, as your requirements negate even an MBA and some MBPs and iMacs.

My analysis on the iPad vs Mac scenarios stems from Steve's analogy regarding the "Post-PC era", where he posits that in the past every vehicle was a truck but not everyone needed it's full capabilities, so that's where a car would come in.

Thus, you obviously need a truck.

 

[qoop]

Yes, please. I want to honestly assess the iPad's limitations as it pertains to Mac equivalency.

Well, things like renaming batches of files across an entire file system, where files are stored in multiple folders or multiple storage devices. Using search and replace strings either in terminal or in the Finder. Duplicating folders where the target can be on a different storage device. Merging files from one folder to another, with the choice of overwriting or renaming. Reliable drag and drop operations over one or more storage devices.

Comparing multiple folders for content with regards to file attributes, size etc. Version control either via a manual system or by a secondary application. Checking for null content in image files, a quick check using Finder is usually sufficient but sometimes, it will involve the opening of all files of similar type for that job. The collection of manuscripts and design elements can involve thousands of files, so a good file manipulation system is essential.

I don't own an iPad, but I do access/rename/compare files a lot in Finder.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Guys, the iPad was DESIGNED to sit here:

The deal is, iPad customers found that the iPad did everything they needed, and in similar fashion to their iPhone, so suddenly they didn't the third device.

Apple has kept expanding the iPad's capabilities and thus expanding the amount of people that can delete that last image.

For me, it took 10 years.

But I'm pretty sure the amount of folks that can delete the last image will NEVER be 100%.

It's that simple.

And to be honest, I've heard there are folks that have eliminated the last two devices and ONLY use their iPhone (which I can't fathom)!

Thus, I think we'll always have all three.

 

[spinedoc77]

Cool, I'll definitely keep buying Apple stock seeing how smart Apple is in convincing everyone that they need 2 devices. I won't buy the hardware though, I'll stick to my Surface Pro.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Well, things like renaming batches of files across an entire file system, where files are stored in multiple folders or multiple storage devices. Using search and replace strings either in terminal or in the Finder. Duplicating folders where the target can be on a different storage device. Merging files from one folder to another, with the choice of overwriting or renaming. Reliable drag and drop operations over one or more storage devices.

Comparing multiple folders for content with regards to file attributes, size etc. Version control either via a manual system or by a secondary application. Checking for null content in image files, a quick check using Finder is usually sufficient but sometimes, it will involve the opening of all files of similar type for that job. The collection of manuscripts and design elements can involve thousands of files, so a good file manipulation system is essential.

I don't own an iPad, but I do access/rename/compare files a lot in Finder.

This would be challenging for the average Mac user to do. This is straight up truck stuff for technical folk within an Enterprise.

I guess from the perspective of a semi truck driver, every car is a toy (even if it is a taxi or an Amazon delivery van).

Can't argue that.

But I'll add it to the list as "more robust file manipulation".

 

[spinedoc77]

There are three major aspects currently separating the Mac and the iPad: cooling, sandboxing, and windowing UI. Let's consider each of these in turn.

Cooling: Even with the M1, it's not going to be solved for the iPad without making it noisy and heavier to the point that degrades its usability as a tablet. In general, no matter how efficient you make your CPU, you can always get more performance by running more of them faster and at least high-end Macs will continue to want that. Not necessarily Macbooks though.

Sandboxing: Application sandboxing is becoming more of a thing everywhere in computing. Ubuntu's Snaps are one prominent example, and Homebrew is a limited example on the Mac. And MacOS has been increasingly sandboxing the system as well. That leaves the user's files. In iOS Files has been making strides in opening up here, so it's not impossible to imagine that they could meet in the middle.

Windowing: Here again there have been convergent steps in both directions, with iPadOS multitasking and Mac full-screen modes. But the gap is still quite a large one, depending on the user. Many users even today use their PCs and Macs almost always in full-screen mode for one app or another. On the other hand you have users who like to use windows and spatial organization and feel harshly confined on the iPad. Being in the latter group, I hope Apple finds a way to expand windowing capabilities in iOS. If nothing else it would make the experience of using an external display on an iPad through a dock much more reasonable.

However, since none of these are insurmountable and trends beyond just Apple are all moving in the same direction, Apple will likely continue to converge the platforms as they've been doing, and then one day will, for example, phase out Macbooks once iOS has come far enough. (And yes, I think it likely iOS will "win" - - it's newer, cleaner, more efficient, more widely used and developed for, and still shares the same core unix kernel as MacOS.)

Is cooling really an issue? I ask this sincerely as a non tech consumer. You can already get the latest i5 (not sure if the i7 is finally fanless) proc in a surface pro without fans. Even the ipad itself has no fans, but you can run some very graphically beefy games on it, I can only assume the M1 will be that much more powerful and Apple took this into account. Plus doesn't the M1 run at a much lower tdp than Intel chips?

 

[medee88]

What can't you do on an iPad that you can on the Mac?

And I mean can't, not just "can't do it the same way as on the Mac".

I want to add them to my running list, to see if Apple is going to start checking them off.

They checked all of mine off (in no particular order):

1. RAM amount
2. Processor power
3. Proper output to external monitor
4. Mouse/trackpad support
5. Screen size (they're hitting the bare minimum with 12.9", I want 17")
6. Thunderbolt access to peripherals/external drives

This has probably been said, but software development is in general a no-go on an iPad. There are workarounds, like remoting into a server so you can, etc, but that pretty much squanders the power of the iPad. There just simply aren't access to the same types of APIs and low level features available on MacOS.

I have an iPad Pro from 2 generations ago. I see the cool new features and processors and wonder if I should upgrade, but the fact remains most of the time it sits around collecting dust until I use it as a second screen, browsing the internet, or perhaps during a workout. I'm just simply not the professional for it. I can do everything I use the iPad Pro for on a base iPad, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

My somewhat perfect dream device is an iPad Pro that I can hook up to a second screen that delivers the full MacOS experience, or some experience that allows me to do work and retreat to the simplicity of iOS/iPadOS when I desire. I know that's not everybody's wish, but being able to carry around something that small seems quite nice to me, particularly since iPad's pretty much have the same style keyboard available as the surface at this point.

Am I upset at apple for not making a device like that? Not really, but it is feeling like this separate laptop vs tablet experience is the old way and we're on the cusp of reaching the next thing. I see that every time a kid who hasn't really seen a "traditional" computer is confused at the concept of a mouse, but intuitively knows touch, similar to how terminals and keyboards were the only way until someone saw GUI's and mice being used.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I'm convinced the next step is to allow macOS apps to work on iPadOS, similar to how iOS apps can run on m1 macs. It won’t be easy though, and I doubt if they did do it it would be *any* app. I imagine it would only be apps available through the macOS app store, and I suspect there would be rules to it due to the openness of macOS amd the closed approach of iPadOS and iOS. But I think rather than their goal being to merge ipados and macOS, it’s to have any app work across all three os’. You choose the device and consequently the os, and then just get your app and get to work. Pretty much no app is reliant on the underlying OS, so as much as all the macOS affectionados witter on about an iPadOS being a toy and not a ‘real’ os, it’s utterly irrelevant if the app you need to get your work done is available. Obviously the dev can chose if they wish to make their app available on all three or just choose one or two. But this makes much more sense than some weird conspiracy or other such idea. Pretty much:if the goal with the ipad was to run macos, it would have been running macOS from the start.

If you need terminal and obscene amounts of files system access, prefer traditional inputs and traditional form factors - you get a mac.
If you want a touch first interface, and more organic types of inputs, you prefer an ’app first’ approach and the security of a closed system, you get an iPad.
If you want the benefit of both, you get both. They work very well together, and a Mac mini plus an ipad is the same price as a MacBook.
Why they would become one is not even a question in my eyes.


Personally, I have Synology file server and 2018 Mac mini and I control it all through an iPad Pro 12.9. It’s the best of all worlds, is fully modular and I can use macOS as an app for the few softwares that I need that iPadOS doesn’t have - namely lightroom classic.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

This has probably been said, but software development is in general a no-go on an iPad. There are workarounds, like remoting into a server so you can, etc, but that pretty much squanders the power of the iPad. There just simply aren't access to the same types of APIs and low level features available on MacOS.

I have an iPad Pro from 2 generations ago. I see the cool new features and processors and wonder if I should upgrade, but the fact remains most of the time it sits around collecting dust until I use it as a second screen, browsing the internet, or perhaps during a workout. I'm just simply not the professional for it. I can do everything I use the iPad Pro for on a base iPad, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

My somewhat perfect dream device is an iPad Pro that I can hook up to a second screen that delivers the full MacOS experience, or some experience that allows me to do work and retreat to the simplicity of iOS/iPadOS when I desire. I know that's not everybody's wish, but being able to carry around something that small seems quite nice to me, particularly since iPad's pretty much have the same style keyboard available as the surface at this point.

Am I upset at apple for not making a device like that? Not really, but it is feeling like this separate laptop vs tablet experience is the old way and we're on the cusp of reaching the next thing. I see that every time a kid who hasn't really seen a "traditional" computer is confused at the concept of a mouse, but intuitively knows touch, similar to how terminals and keyboards were the only way until someone saw GUI's and mice being used.

I can understand this. Hell, I wish I could do this with an iPhone (like I kinda could with my old Samsung Note8 DeX).

But short of having two SSDs in the device with the different builds, or semi-mirrored data partitions... I mean, it'd be a mess to do and I don't believe Apple will have the motivation to do this.

In my personal scenario, I use a work-issued PC to do the Pro stuff. This new iPad will replace my household/personal Macs.

However, all I need for work is Outlook, Teams, a Web browser, an SSH client, and an SQL DB Management tool.

I could use an iPad for this (but would prefer a Mac).

 

[Bluetoot-]

I’m sure Apple isn’t sad about selling two devices, but mainly for the above reasons, I’m inclined to believe them when they say they aren’t converging. Not to mention, Apple is usually silent on their plans. The fact that they have been so repeatedly and emphatically outspoken about this to me gives their claim further credence.

I believe them as well, at least for the moment.

I agree, I think the iPad should continue to remain the tool that it is; however, for an iPad Pro with the same level of compute power and capability as a regular Mac, I would think macOS (in some form) would make sense. Hell, call it iPadOS, but open it up.

 

[gnasher729]

Apple can say all they want, but merging is inevitable.

You can say all you want, but merging is never going to happen.

Here's what might happen, since so many people want a desktop that is cheaper than an iMac: Apple writes an iOS application called "MacOS". That application simulates a complete computer running MacOS. Totally separate from any other iOS applications, because MacOS apps are less protected than iOS apps, but that's Ok because they are all _inside_ the MacOS app.

Runs on every modern iPhone or iPad, but you would really want one with 8GB of RAM or more, and with say _at least_ 80GB free space on the phone to be used for MacOS. The app comes with MacOS pre-installed, and when you launch it, it's the same as turning on a Mac for the first time. Hardware wise, Apple makes sure that you can attach a monitor to your Mac. And possibly a keyboard and mouse. And possibly an external hard drive, in which case no space is used on your phone.

When used without a keyboard, the iPhone or iPad are used as a touchpad and keyboard. When used without a keyboard, the iPhone or iPad are a second small monitor.

So as the owner of an iPhone XR with generous amount of RAM, you can buy any monitor and an external SSD drive, connect it to the iPhone XR, and have a desktop computer for less than $200 if you want. But merging iOS and MacOS, never going to happen.

 

[ggx12]

I think this analogy about the iPad being that perfect content consumption machine was fair when the iPad was around $499.

If the top line iPad was the current iPad Air. I think, yes, this analogy would still hold.

But apple did invest to take the touch form factor to its apex with the 12.9" iPad Pro, and we can't hardly call that a simple 'tablet' anymore.

 

[gnasher729]

All he's saying is that they won't merge the product lines. That doesn't mean there won't be one (or more) convergent devices, like an iMac with a touch screen.

Such a device wouldn't obsolete the use cases for which an iPad is perfect for.

iMac with touch screen = never going to happen.
Touchscreen is a feature that people think they want, but then they figure out that their arms get very heavy very quickly if you actually use it. The effect is called "gorilla arm" and was well-known 30 years ago when some manufacturers played with the idea. Touchpad is better in every respect.

 

[gnasher729]

Nobody has any intention of building a wall​

- Walter Ulbricht.

Bizarrely, he actually managed to build a wall, while the orange man who promised to build one failed miserably.

 

[1t1sm3]

This is hard to believe. If they wanted to make the best product in each category then why have we not seen faceid on a mac or the camera panning feature from the ipad. Why have we not seen Logic or Final cut come to iPad?

 

[Koivari]

No need to merge them more than they have already, but i would personally appreciate a touch screen and a built in 5G option with the Apple notebooks.

 

[cupcakes2000]

You can say all you want, but merging is never going to happen.

Here's what might happen, since so many people want a desktop that is cheaper than an iMac: Apple writes an iOS application called "MacOS". That application simulates a complete computer running MacOS. Totally separate from any other iOS applications, because MacOS apps are less protected than iOS apps, but that's Ok because they are all _inside_ the MacOS app.

Runs on every modern iPhone or iPad, but you would really want one with 8GB of RAM or more, and with say _at least_ 80GB free space on the phone to be used for MacOS. The app comes with MacOS pre-installed, and when you launch it, it's the same as turning on a Mac for the first time. Hardware wise, Apple makes sure that you can attach a monitor to your Mac. And possibly a keyboard and mouse. And possibly an external hard drive, in which case no space is used on your phone.

When used without a keyboard, the iPhone or iPad are used as a touchpad and keyboard. When used without a keyboard, the iPhone or iPad are a second small monitor.

So as the owner of an iPhone XR with generous amount of RAM, you can buy any monitor and an external SSD drive, connect it to the iPhone XR, and have a desktop computer for less than $200 if you want. But merging iOS and MacOS, never going to happen.

Cool idea

 

[ersan191]

I still cant develop apps on my iPad. Thats the missing link. I can do everything else.

I agree, functionally that’s the only thing I can’t do - but it’s also way less efficient for things like navigating, typing, file management, and swapping between tasks and programs. Even if it had XCode I still wouldn’t be happy with it.

 

[gnasher729]

Here is my guess (or a wish). Apple provides macOS as a virtual machine in the iPadOS App Store. Download it and install it on the iPad Pro, and launch when a Magic Keyboard or an external display is connected.

This is similar to what Samsung is trying to do with DeX but with much more capability.

I would gladly sell my MacBook Air and buy an iPad Pro if they did this.

Except there is no need for an iPad, an iPhone would do just fine. Ok, it would not be as fast as an M1 chip, but the M1 is _very_ fast, and an iPhone XR would be able to power an acceptable MacOS X computer.

 

[Fishrrman]

"No Plans to Merge Mac and iPad..."

For now.

 

[0924487]

And in what ways would macOS help in these efforts over iPadOS? Because you can do these things on iPadOS today.

I was replying to this. I just listed the use cases. I did call for MacOS on iPad.

I don't understand the use case for an iPad if you have a portable Mac but for content consumption. As an owner of multiple iPad Pros over the years I've gotten rid of them because I can't justify the price or hardware for what I realistically used them for.

 

[DarthDon]

that's exactly the biggest mistake ever. there only a few customers who actually need that power in a iPad. the rest of us do know the difference working smoothly with OS X or iPadOS on that device. get the iPad Air, safe money!

 

[0924487]

I have a M1 Mac Mini, Intel Macbook Pro, 12.9" 2018 iPad Pro.

Then why do you want the iPad Pro to have duplicate or overlapping functions and use cases? Just pick up which ever that fits your need at the moment. They will live longer that way too.

 

[nighthawk67]

The only thing that I love about macOS that can’t really be accomplished on iPadOS is the multiple desktops. I never really see anyone talk about this, but I love being able to have multiple different safari browsers open with different themed tabs and a bunch of different google docs and things of that nature. This level of multitasking just doesnt work for me on my iPad Pro. I’m a teacher and we use Google Apps so I always have a ton of Docs, sheets, and slides open. I use the pencil all the time and airplay my iPad to the board and move about the room freely, so when I’m teaching the iPad is a very powerful tool, but when it comes to managing documents I’m always on my MacBook. I think I could get by with just my iPad, but it would be less convenient and more time consuming.

I say all that to say this, if my iPad could dual boot macOS when attached to the smart keyboard, it would be the holy grail machine for me. Unfortunately I don’t think we will see this. My guess is iPadOS 15 will just be able to run some Mac apps that other professionals use.

 

[0924487]

This!! but honestly going with the M series chip; why can’t I just plug my phone into a external monitor and it runs OS X, when it’s not plugged in it’s iOS. My phone is currently more powerful than my 2015 MBP

I believe this limitation is not technical but financial. Samsung did this since 2018 I think. It’s totally possible.