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1) I thought you weren’t engaging with me?

2) you might find people more willing to do research if you provided some of your own, or benefits of natural medicine that were relevant to the topic at hand.

3) I see. It’s all about the money again. Doctors just do down natural medicine for the $$$ and not because it’s not as effective. Even though the same thing happens in countries without messed up healthcare systems, where doctors aren’t paid in the same way and under the same influences. Take the tin foil hat off. Then fill it with some lavender and have a think.
Yes sometimes it is about money not health, if a docter does not use a certain cure or does not receive pay from a different way of curing then he/she will not use it...however there are some allopathic doctors which do combine different medical practices with standard medicine for example ones which work with a nutritionalist or natural medicine or chiropractor or organic dentist or all of theme, it's called whole health medicine, now it is the last time I will discuss this with you.
 
Received a leaked audio file from a Cardiologist in Milan's area:
  1. Situation is worse than described
  2. Not enough ventilators
  3. They have been ordered to not put anyone above 60 under respiratory assistance
  4. Youngest person they have under their control is about 35.
  5. Lombardy is collapsing.
  6. 10 days ago the situation was much, much better. It took only 10 days to escalate to unprecedented level.
  7. No issues with kids; they test positive but they are carriers.
  8. She says to doctors in Rome to expect to see what they're seeing in Milan now within 10/15 days.
Original audio file is in Italian, if you want I can try to attach it.
As with anything on the internet... who knows.
 
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Yes sometimes it is about money not health, if a docter does not use a certain cure or does not receive pay from a different way of curing then he/she will not use it...however there are some allopathic doctors which do combine different medical practices with standard medicine for example ones which work with a nutritionalist or natural medicine or chiropractor or organic dentist or all of theme, it's called whole health medicine, now it is the last time I will discuss this with you.

Again, that argument falls down when you consider that a large number of doctors outside the US are not on commission and yet the result is no different.
 
1) I thought you weren’t engaging with me?

2) you might find people more willing to do research if you provided some of your own, or benefits of natural medicine that were relevant to the topic at hand.

3) I see. It’s all about the money again. Doctors just do down natural medicine for the $$$ and not because it’s not as effective. Even though the same thing happens in countries without messed up healthcare systems, where doctors aren’t paid in the same way and under the same influences. Take the tin foil hat off. Then fill it with some lavender and have a think.
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Since you talk about antibacterial soap... do you mean hand washes/liquid soap?

I’ve been using bars of soap exclusively since the outbreak became known, since I wasn’t sure if other “soaps” counted or were as effective.
I have heard interviews with natural doctors which have verified that they have standard doctors go to them even though they won't send there patients to them...so yes it's about money sometimes.
 
4 cases reported now in my state-one on Friday and 3 more yesterday. I don't remember the exact number, but I think they reported 17 negative tests. The tests certainly seem slim, though. I had a doctor's appointment in Lexington earlier today, and the office had done things like remove all the magazines from the waiting room. I was also questioned about travel out of the country, and had my temperature taken(this office I think has never done that before).
 
Probably more information than you wanted to know hahah.

[Quick note- I just checked, the FDA’s ban on the 28 antiseptic agents goes into effect April 2020. Therefore products with those agents technically still might exist, though reportedly the ban would only impact 3% of sales. So the product you mentioned could contain something other than alcohol or Benzalkonium Chloride (BZK).

Confusion especially comes into play when you have products marked by by brands typically associated with alcohol-based sanitizers. For example, the name “Purell” is associated with a alcohol-based gel hand sanitizer. Most “Purell Hand Sanitizing Wipes” however contain BZK rather than ethyl alcohol... BUT Purell also offers another product also called “Purell Hand Sanitizing Wipes” that instead use alcohol. You really have to read the fine print.

As I mentioned in the COVID-19 Information Thread, despite the CDC’s recommendation to use alcohol-based hand sanitizers, alcohol-free products have also sold out. As you mentioned, Benzalkonium Chloride (BZK) has very limited effectiveness against viruses and unlike alcohol... and also requires a very long residence time to reach its maximum effect.

Antibacterial soaps fall into a different product category called “Antiseptic Hand Washes” and we’re part of the FDA’s 2016 interest in investigating hand sanitizer ingredients. You may remember the hubbub of Triclosan being banned from soap- this came out of the same 2016 investigation/regulation. As it stands now, antibacterial consumer hand soap now limits available antiseptic agents to benzalkonium chloride, benzethonium chloride and chloroxylenol.

You’re correct that soap primarily is intended to wash away pathogens. But it’s not just the mechanical movement of scrubbing and water flow. I‘ll try not to bore you with my esoteric appreciation of the chemical properties of water and emulsifying agents and the science behind them, but it’s actually pretty cool phenomenon.

Soap’s emulsifying agents encapsulate lipophilic materials. Typically people only think of removing oils or dirt when it comes to soap’s function. But molecules, particles, and pathogens, etc can be lipophilic. Coronaviruses possess an envelope (exterior structure) composed of various types of lipids and proteins making it highly lipophilic entity. Emulsifiers are basically molecules that are lipophilic/hydrophobic at one end and hydrophilic/lipophobic at the other.

In the presence of water, the lipophilic ends of the emulsifier are drawn to the virus’s envelope. The hydrophilic ends are drawn to the water molecules. Therefore emulsifier molecules naturally encapsulate the virus (and oils, dirt particles, etc), draw them away from the skin (skin is also lipophilic), and force them to be suspended in the water and washed away.

A secondary benefit: Because skin is lipophillic, emulsifying agents and other components of soap are attracted to skin cells. Therefore people generally are forced to wash their hands longer to get the soap off, which means more time for pathogens to be removed than might have occurred without soap.

There is a bit of controversy as to the need for antiseptic agents in soaps and how much benefit they actually provide. Currently the CDC says antimicrobial soap is unnecessary for general use by the public. Antimicrobial soap is recommended for healthcare settings- but there are some reasons for that but I’ve already been too tangential.

In the context of COVID-19, the underlying pathogen is obviously a virus and viruses aren’t particularly susceptible antimicrobial soaps, typically most effective against bacteria.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, some pathogens are even invulnerable to alcohol. C. Diff is a textbook example- it’s highly contagious and very difficult to kill in or outside a host. Many pathogens when sensing an unfavorable environment can create spores to essentially hibernate until favorable conditions arise to protect themselves. Such spores can be incredibly resilient- unaffected by heat, pH, temperature, etc and can stay dormant for longer than we’ve been able to test them.

So killing the pathogen is not the be-all-end-all of protection from infection. In fact, even in antibiotic treatments many medications work through a bacteriostatic rather than bacteriocidal mechanism (preventing further bacterial growth rather than outright killing all the bacteria). If you’ve ever taken Azithromycin (aka a “Z-Pak”) the medication doesn’t really kill the infection as much as prevents bacterial growth and reproduction- effectively your immune system kills the bacteria.

Not to go off on another tangent, but there have been some isolated examples of pathogens displaying “acquired resistance” (developed, learned) to general antiseptics/disinfectants like alcohol and BZK (ie alcohol resistant staph/MRSA). This is not to be confused with “intrinsic resistance” (normal, expected - ie C. diff to alcohol)]. This was part of the impetus for the FDA to review how such products are being used. That said, these events are not common and isolated. Because of their mechanism of action, development acquired resistance to alcohol and BZK is far more difficult than traditional antibiotic and antiviral pharmaceuticals.

Resistance to alcohol-based antiseptics is probably not something we really need to worry about with COVID-19. Mutations and resistance however will always pose a threat to whatever antiviral treatments and vaccines we develop, but mitigate some of those risks.

As the CDC guidelines suggest, hand washing with soap is essential- antibacterial/microbial/septic or not. I wouldn’t expect much if any benefit in using antibacterial/antimicrobial soap in the context of COVID-19 protection. But I suppose people can decide for themselves what they’re most comfortable with.

(Note: when it comes to body soaps and showering, there’s a good argument against not using soap with antibacterial properties, but that’s another discussion).
This?> They have been saying for decades to stop using antibacterial soap because it produces resistant, super bacteria.

Here is my hypothetical, Northern Italy is put under quarantine and everyone cooperates. So 14 days go by snd then what? Is it assumed that the virus is gone, what has changed? What is the next step?
 
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Italian Prime Minister to speak to the nation.
I assume all of italy will be quarantined.
Now, they just have to get people to honor it...which I acknowledge this can be difficult. You have to get food to your house, and what happens if you need to work to have $ for food? Sounds like the government would have to step up to make this work.
[automerge]1583786369[/automerge]
That’s a 2.8 % fatality rate, so far.
 
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Now, they just have to get people to honor it...which I acknowledge this can be difficult. You have to get food to your house, and what happens if you need to work to have $ for food? Sounds like the government would have to step up to make this work.

Movement is more or less still allowed within your area, so you can go to the market and buy some food. They just don't want people from one region to begin infecting people in other regions thus making everything more difficult.
Theatres, museums, churches, etc. are all closed.
[automerge]1583786690[/automerge]
Just confirmed. Emergency protocols and quarantine rules extended to all of Italy.
 
That’s a 2.8 % fatality rate.

The problem with all fatality rate calculations is that they don't really mean anything until everyone infected has either died or recovered. Everyone's making the mistake of calculating the fatality rate based on the number of currently infected. A lot of those people are going to go on to die. It takes up to 6 weeks for this to kill people.
 
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Movement is more or less still allowed within your area, so you can go to the market and buy some food. They just don't want people from one region to begin infecting people in other regions thus making everything more difficult.
Theatres, museums, churches, etc. are all closed.
[automerge]1583786690[/automerge]
Just confirmed. Emergency protocols and quarantine rules extended to all of Italy.
They need a more descriptive or a different name then. When I hear quarantine, I think stay in your house.
[automerge]1583786995[/automerge]
The problem with all fatality rate calculations is that they don't really mean anything until everyone infected has either died or recovered. Everyone's making the mistake of calculating the fatality rate based on the number of currently infected. A lot of those people are going to go on to die. It takes up to 6 weeks for this to kill people.
I edited the post. :)
 
Italian Prime Minister to speak to the nation.
I assume all of italy will be quarantined.

Movement is more or less still allowed within your area, so you can go to the market and buy some food. They just don't want people from one region to begin infecting people in other regions thus making everything more difficult.
Theatres, museums, churches, etc. are all closed.
[automerge]1583786690[/automerge]
Just confirmed. Emergency protocols and quarantine rules extended to all of Italy.

Good grief.

I have been following this story pretty closely; the very best of luck to those of your family who are in the country.
 
Informational reading:
How the coronavirus can kill people

While the virus attacks and kills cells in all cases, serious illness will depend on how the immune system responds, and that can be influenced by age, gender, genetics and underlying medical conditions. The initial damage caused by the virus can trigger a powerful and counterproductive overreaction by the immune system itself.
Read more at link...
 
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The problem with all fatality rate calculations is that they don't really mean anything until everyone infected has either died or recovered. Everyone's making the mistake of calculating the fatality rate based on the number of currently infected. A lot of those people are going to go on to die. It takes up to 6 weeks for this to kill people.
You've made this argument before, but because of the nature of the virus, the fact that there are so many carriers indicate the percentage now is still an overestimation. The fact is, only very sick people are being counted. This is confirmed by infectious disease doctors (specialists).

Stop with the fear-mongering. This is not a place for novice speculation.

 
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Stop with the fear-mongering. This is not a place for novice speculation.

Why are you so offended that I keep pointing out there's a fundamental error in how people are calculating death rates? If I were fear mongering, I'd point out that the US death rate right now is 3.6%, which is even higher than the WHO's world average, but we know that number is almost certainly flawed by a lack of testing leading to an artificially low infected count. Do you believe that the US death rate is one of the highest in the world? That's how you told me to count the numbers.

If I were fear mongering I'd be trying to adjust everyone's numbers toward the maximum. Instead, I comment on numbers that make too great of an assumption because they're relying on too small of a sample size or a highly skewed data set such as the US numbers and South Korea's.

Quite frankly, all the stats are flawed right now. Ironically, right now the only numbers that are robust enough to infer judgement on are China's.
 
Movement is more or less still allowed within your area, so you can go to the market and buy some food. They just don't want people from one region to begin infecting people in other regions thus making everything more difficult.
Theatres, museums, churches, etc. are all closed.
[automerge]1583786690[/automerge]
Just confirmed. Emergency protocols and quarantine rules extended to all of Italy.
best of luck to everyone.
 
Why are you so offended that I keep pointing out there's a fundamental error in how people are calculating death rates? If I were fear mongering, I'd point out that the US death rate right now is 3.6%, which is even higher than the WHO's world average, but we know that number is almost certainly flawed by a lack of testing leading to an artificially low infected count. Do you believe that the US death rate is one of the highest in the world? That's how you told me to count the numbers.

If I were fear mongering I'd be trying to adjust everyone's numbers toward the maximum. Instead, I comment on numbers that make too great of an assumption because they're relying on too small of a sample size or a highly skewed data set such as the US numbers and South Korea's.

Quite frankly, all the stats are flawed right now. Ironically, right now the only numbers that are robust enough to infer judgement on are China's.
Honestly, the inconsistency you're pointing out is minor compared to the fact that there are huge number of uncounted cases carrying this disease. Your point, while valid, is of minimal value in comparison.
 
Honestly, the inconsistency you're pointing out is minor compared to the fact that there are huge number of uncounted cases carrying this disease. Your point, while valid, is of minimal value in comparison.

Have you read the text of the February 28th WHO Report? The reason why I'm pointing this out is because the WHO advised that with aggressive testing and aggressive contact tracing, you can actually get just about everyone counted.

The team lead of the WHO's fact finding mission, specifically warned against expecting a much lower death rate because we're eager to assume that there's a massive undercount.

Bruce Aylward (WHO): So I know everybody’s been out there saying, ‘Whoa, this thing is spreading everywhere and we just can’t see it, tip of the iceberg.’ But the data that we do have don’t support that.


Of course, his warning is more true for some countries' data than others. The US? Yeah, huge huge undercount. China or any other country following their recommendations for detecting new cases? The WHO thinks their numbers are real.
 
Received a leaked audio file from a Cardiologist in Milan's area:
  1. Situation is worse than described
  2. Not enough ventilators
  3. They have been ordered to not put anyone above 60 under respiratory assistance
  4. Youngest person they have under their control is about 35.
  5. Lombardy is collapsing.
  6. 10 days ago the situation was much, much better. It took only 10 days to escalate to unprecedented level.
  7. No issues with kids; they test positive but they are carriers.
  8. She says to doctors in Rome to expect to see what they're seeing in Milan now within 10/15 days.
Original audio file is in Italian, if you want I can try to attach it.
As with anything on the internet... who knows.

The official case count, % of deaths is very much mirroring Hubei Province right now. That the situation is worse than described would not be surprising.
 
Received a leaked audio file from a Cardiologist in Milan's area:
  1. Situation is worse than described
  2. Not enough ventilators
  3. They have been ordered to not put anyone above 60 under respiratory assistance
  4. Youngest person they have under their control is about 35.
  5. Lombardy is collapsing.
  6. 10 days ago the situation was much, much better. It took only 10 days to escalate to unprecedented level.
  7. No issues with kids; they test positive but they are carriers.
  8. She says to doctors in Rome to expect to see what they're seeing in Milan now within 10/15 days.
Original audio file is in Italian, if you want I can try to attach it.
As with anything on the internet... who knows.
Do you have a source? If you can't post an article with this information, it probably shouldn't be here.
 
Do you have a source? If you can't post an article with this information, it probably shouldn't be here.
I have the audio file. And considering what the Lombardy region is asking today, the audio is probably reliable.

Not the same source but essentially the same message... corroboration, i guess:

 
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