Developers attitudes towards user testing

[DanR16]

The fact is that if you're on a public forum asking about an issue that has to do with unreleased software, then you shouldn't be running it. There could be so much more better discussion about iOS 7 in general, like new APIs, app optimization, the new features, and other things. Instead, we're babysitting all the newbies who come in here with a problem and are using the beta like it's the real deal.

Of course we can't stop it, but asking someone to use common sense is a given, and we're not going to stop telling people how it is until they get it.

I don't disagree with your points however I don't see then need to 'tell people how it is' because it serves no purpose appart from upsetting someone.

 

[aimee.elizabeth]

The fact is that if you're on a public forum asking about an issue that has to do with unreleased software, then you shouldn't be running it. There could be so much more better discussion about iOS 7 in general, like new APIs, app optimization, the new features, and other things. Instead, we're babysitting all the newbies who come in here with a problem and are using the beta like it's the real deal.

Of course we can't stop it, but asking someone to use common sense is a given, and we're not going to stop telling people how it is until they get it.

Well then this is an issue that you would have to take up with Macrumors, because this forum isn't dedicated to developers. If you feel like all the babysitting/problem solving is beneath you, then I suggest you find a forum that is dedicated to developers, which I'm sure you can find easily. And the fact that you believe there could be better discussions, that's just your opinion because everyone who decides to make a thread believes that their topic is worthy and important.

And lastly, why are you making this a you vs. me situation? This has never been about the users vs. the developers. Everyone is entitled to make threads/posts about whatever they want on this forum, albeit within the forum's rules. No one is forcing you to read their threads or care in the slightest. And hell, no one is even telling you that you can't post, we just want the elitism in your responses to stop.

 

[HankHowdy]

Developers attitudes towards user testing

I think it makes sense that this is a developer beta and that we as non developers have no business using this software. Now, after the official release its beta time all the time. Lol. Those are for testers which are like the majority of us here on macrumors, then it's time open the floodgates for all these " this beta sucks!" like posts.

We really shouldn't be using it.

I'm going to have to agree with Jare on this one.

I don't think that it's ever acceptable to trash someone else because of there lack of knowledge or common sense. Perhaps just reporting that persons post to a moderator and walking away is the best course.

Off my box.

 

[mcfly88]

I can see both sides to a degree, but overall developers have been a little ridiculous. I mean I realize that there are people who really shouldn't install these beta! However, to act as if every person who isn't a developer is incapable of using these.. just makes you sound pretentious. As I said though, I do realize not everyone is.. I have seen numerous people, who obviously have no clue what they're doing. To that, I can see why some developers can get annoyed.. but still why even comment? As someone said above, this isn't a developer only forum though! Also, this is not the case for every single non-developer! I have a degree in computers, I understand software. I realize what beta builds are and that they have issues. I'm testing it because I enjoy new software

 

[Jare]

This thread is the perfect example of how two sides can have a discussion about something without it turning heated. I applaud you guys for being able to actually discuss this without it getting locked due to anger.

 

[tymaster50]

I don't think developers have a problem with users testing beta software. What gets annoying is posts about how iOS 7 sucks because of Bug X, or "help, I really need to use Feature Y but it's brokenz!?!?!?" Just this morning a guy posted that Apple can "kiss his a**" because of a bug in iOS 7 beta. Give me a break. Of course you're going to be mocked. The "beta" label by definition means there. are. known. bugs.

A user can use the software, but a user has no right to whine or complain about bugs at all! When you install a beta you should assume going in that there will be showstopper bugs, critical features not working, that will prevent you from being able to use your iPhone normally. Don't act surprised when it really happens!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbmB9k2Y88

 

[donnaw]

I totally agree with you, we are the worst testers. But here's the problem with your post.

This beta isn't to test iOS 7 itself, this is to test OUR APPLICATIONS with the new APIs. Your entire post is 100% correct and I commend you for coming in here and voicing your opinion (a lot better then I did mine).

You'd be totally right if you didn't have the idea of what this beta is wrong.

I understand where you're coming from. But I must point out that 1). Apple knows the betas always get into the hands of people other than devs, 2) for reasons of their own, Apple simply doesn't tighten up and even try very hard to prevent the so-called 'power users' from getting it.

I suspect Apple doesn't try harder simply because they know the real-world results they get are beneficial. Results they cannot get with their own in-house testing nor with developers who, as you so rightly point out, are busy updating/testing their own apps.

Look, no company these days wants to be accused of using their customers as 'beta' testers. But in real life, to actually roll out good, well-tested software that will satisfy the number of users Apple has to deal with, there probably isn't a better way than to 'allow' your most tech-savvy users access to your product. I know you (and it seems a bunch of others) hate to read the posts etc. But face it, the folks who are doing this are putting the entire OS through it's paces. Finding stuff that would surface after roll-out and would give Apple a black eye. Better to let it be found when it's still 'beta' and Apple saves face, users get a better final product. Win-win.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a method to the madness. And it's worked for Apple since the second version of iOS.

I'll say it again. Relax. Do your own thing, if reading the threads bothers you so much, stay away and keep to the dev forums. You'll have a lot less stress.

 

[Jare]

I understand where you're coming from. But I must point out that 1). Apple knows the betas always get into the hands of people other than devs, 2) for reasons of their own, Apple simply doesn't tighten up and even try very hard to prevent the so-called 'power users' from getting it.

So putting the software behind a paid portal and a legally binding NDA, as well as adding security features such as UDID registration (though, there are some work arounds) isn't "trying hard"?

And banning developer accounts who sell or give away UDID slots to non-testers is also not trying hard?

 

[omgwut]

"Stop complaining, its a beta!"

"Shut up they'll change it, its a beta!"

"What do you expect? Its a beta!"

"Hey, how come this gold release looks like crap?"

 

[DanR16]

So putting the software behind a paid portal and a legally binding NDA, as well as adding security features such as UDID registration (though, there are some work arounds) isn't "trying hard"?

And banning developer accounts who sell or give away UDID slots to non-testers is also not trying hard?

It's really not hard in fact it's simpler to update it without a UDID than it is to update it the legit way. It's common scense to click update rather than restore. How hard would it be for apple to stop this?

 

[Gutwrench]

Interesting thread. I would have commented earlier but other than a short visit this morning I've been coding. When I open a topic that I don't enjoy I back out to find a new and hopefully better one. I generally leave the moderating to moderators and voice a site concern in the feedback forum.

Wow it is easy to get sucked in...time to change threads or browse another site, grab a book, walk the dog, talk to my family I've barely seen or made time for, or heck maybe I'll just log back in.

 

[solarguy17]

I am not a developer and do not currently have the beta installed. I did install beta 3 and 4 of iOS6 and may install iOS7 at a later date.

However my thoughts. It seems to me the developers are complaining about the reg ppl becuase The regs only complain about 2 things, icons and speed. Stuff that surely the developers have actually complained about to Apple and stuff is being complained about in regular news articles.
Look at the iOS 7 1st list of posts page. 3/4 of them are icon complaints and redesigns. I don't care either and wish people would stop creating them. I wish Mods would create a subforum for icons so actual questions and problem could be seen by everyone easier.

 

[bushido]

non-devs are the real testers in my opinion, they might see things devs would look over easily because they simply "think different"

plus it already takes some skills to find the beta and actually installing it so noobs like my sister get already "filterted" because those people would never bother with it therefore i welcome those non-devs and apple doesnt seem to mind either as they no longer even bother to check the udid. they r probably happy for every bug report. the more people test the better the end result

 

[elistan]

I don't disagree with your points however I don't see then need to 'tell people how it is' because it serves no purpose appart from upsetting someone.

Maybe, however, when iOS 8 beta is released to developers they'll remember their bad experience with the iOS 7 betas and will wait for the formal release before installing. Then they won't have a potentially unusable phone, and will be much happier people. Sometimes mistakes or poor judgements are upsetting, but hopefully we're all cognizant enough to learn from such incidents and use the situations to improve our future lives.

 

[phpmaven]

non-devs are the real testers in my opinion, they might see things devs would look over easily because they simply "think different"

plus it already takes some skills to find the beta and actually installing it so noobs like my sister get already "filterted" because those people would never bother with it therefore i welcome those non-devs and apple doesnt seem to mind either as they no longer even bother to check the udid. they r probably happy for every bug report. the more people test the better the end result

The problem with that argument is that non-devs are not giving feedback to Apple about the issues they are having but come on forums like these and talk about it. You could argue that Apple watches these discussions, but that seems a stretch.

 

[Apple_Robert]

The problem with that argument is that non-devs are not giving feedback to Apple about the issues they are having but come on forums like these and talk about it. You could argue that Apple watches these discussions, but that seems a stretch.

In my opinion, it would be logical for Apple employee(s) to monitor the largest Mac site from time to time. Outside of the developer forum, what better place to go surfing?

 

[bige12]

The reason why Apple only release betas to Devlopers is because they do not want the other people to ruin/brick their phones that they use everyday, since betas always have bugs and issues.

 

[aimee.elizabeth]

The problem with that argument is that non-devs are not giving feedback to Apple about the issues they are having but come on forums like these and talk about it. You could argue that Apple watches these discussions, but that seems a stretch.

Also even if regular users don't always report bugs directly to Apple, their phones could still be opted for automatically sending Apple diagnostics & usage, which would help them.

The reason why Apple only release betas to Devlopers is because they do not want the other people to ruin/brick their phones that they use everyday, since betas always have bugs and issues.

That's funny because out of all the "ios 7 bricked my phone" threads, none of them have been actually bricked. Many of the bugs and issues can be fixed by users, and the rest like app crashes will be fixable later when later betas are introduced or the final release. So it's not really as dramatic as you're describing.

 

[jebbe]

It's because developers feel like they're a part of a special club and everyone else is getting in without paying their dues.

 

[Ubuntu]

Hi,
I wanted to discuss something which has been bugging me for quite a while. Every time a distressed user asks for help with a beta release there always seems to be a developer who just wants to get at them and mock them for daring to try out a bit of software when their not a developer. I don't care if user testing is right or wrong, at the end of the day these people are your customers so I fail to see why developers feel the need to publicly mock distressed users when their already down. If you don't want to help fine, but don't mock them or make petty comments.

Just to be clear I am aware of the negative implications of users testing betas but that's not the issue I'm making, I just think that kicking someone when there down is wrong, you wouldn't do it face to face so don't do it here.

Thanks,

The problem is on both sides, really. Some people are quite harsh in their responses to such posts as you've mentioned but at the same time it does get a bit tedious to have the forum flooded with posts where people seem to treat the beta like shipped software. It's also quite dumb to put the beta on your main phone, and I've warned many of my friends about this, but they tend to ignore it, although I agree, there's no use in mocking them when things go wrong.

I also used to work as a FRS for Apple and I'd occasionally get people who would be shouting about how they've lost all their photos etc due to the beta and think it's everyone else's fault and not their own fault, so I can see why people might get frustrated with such posts. I'm also now a mobile developer and I certainly remember the significant surge in poor reviews/ratings for my apps shortly after the releases of the iOS 5 and iOS 6 betas, because users would be encountering problems in the beta experience and assuming it's down to my own apps just being poor in experience.

Overall, though, I do welcome user testing. I just ask that people really do think about what they're doing before they come charging along and blame apple, or the developers, for what they've brought on themselves.

 

[bushido]

The problem with that argument is that non-devs are not giving feedback to Apple about the issues they are having but come on forums like these and talk about it. You could argue that Apple watches these discussions, but that seems a stretch.

two words: crash report

 

[lsutigerfan1976]

I don't think it should matter either way. If someone is willing to register their phone legally and the proper way. Just to use a beta software as their daily driver, that is up to them. It is not up to us to lecture them on what we feel about that.

 

[Gogurt48]

The problem is on both sides, really. Some people are quite harsh in their responses to such posts as you've mentioned but at the same time it does get a bit tedious to have the forum flooded with posts where people seem to treat the beta like shipped software.

I'm sure it does. I'm not a dev, but I do have a developer account, and I installed iOS 7 legitimately. I installed it on my one-and-only iPhone, and yes, I know that's a stupid thing to do (I prefer the word "risky").

Anyway, I've been very happy with iOS 7 overall. The bugs haven't bothered me because I've been told to expect them. They're the price I have to pay to get the iOS 7 experience early. Therefore, when I've mentioned bugs on this forum I've tried to phrase it as an observation, not a complaint.

The problem I have, not being a developer, and not being familiar with how betas typically work, is knowing when to mention something, and when to keep quiet.

For example, I've noticed that there's no longer a button in the video player control screen to bring up a chapter menu. Should I mention that? Or should I assume it's a feature that's just been disabled for the first few betas and keep quiet? I really don't know. On the one hand, I don't want to annoy everyone with amateur questions, but on the other hand, isn't the beta cycle when we're supposed to point out problems so Apple can fix them?

 

[phpmaven]

two words: crash report

For the data to be of any value during the IOS beta period it would need to be sent to the Apple Bug Reporter which is only accessible to devs. If non-devs want to play around with the beta, that's fine with me, but let's not pretend that Apple is benefiting from any feedback from them.

 

[liamry]

simply because of the amount of people asking stupid questions, crying about icons, phone crashing, battery loss, bugs etc.

& also just seen this

I'm sure there's already posts on this, but I can't get a single music player to work on beta 2 iPhone 4. I was able to use Sirius no problem on beta 1, but now that, along with pandora or stock iPod player crashes. When I can get iPod to play, it's very patchy like a badly scratched cd. And no, it's not because I should expect this on 3 year old hardware. If it can play youtube and videos just fine, it should play music even better!