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What do you think of the condescending attitudes refered to in the origanal post?

  • They're unacceptable, If people have a problem with a post they shouldn't reply

    Votes: 36 46.8%
  • Their attitude is unacceptable but they should still tell people when their in the wrong

    Votes: 10 13.0%
  • Developers are right, users need told not to use betas.

    Votes: 31 40.3%

  • Total voters
    77
Most of them are not even real developers they are just child keyboard warriors. However for the real ones, I do completely understand. But let's be serious about this, Apple have made it hard enough without making it impossible to test. This way they get free mass testing without be held responsible for the end results if it goes wrong. Just think of all that data they are getting from the diagnostics. If Apple had really only wanted developers to test, they could have locked people out.
 
Most of them are not even real developers they are just child keyboard warriors. However for the real ones, I do completely understand. But let's be serious about this, Apple have made it hard enough without making it impossible to test. This way they get free mass testing without be held responsible for the end results if it goes wrong. Just think of all that data they are getting from the diagnostics. If Apple had really only wanted developers to test, they could have locked people out.

They do, there is no legal way to download the iOS 7 beta software (.ipsw's) other then paying the $99 fee and using the developer portal.
 
By installing this software as a joy ride to play with you are doing absolutely no good in the development of iOS. If you really want to contribute to the development of iOS 7, wait until you're able to install iOS 7.0 in a legal, public release way and submit bugs. Apple's iOS X.0 launches are the REAL BETAS. They're released to the public AND you can submit bug reports and actually do some real good. All those iOS versions after X.0 (Like iOS 7.1, 7.1.2, etc) will be the versions where YOUR BUG REPORTS matter.

Even if they're not sending in any sort of detailed bug reports, aren't the automatic diagnostics worth something? Otherwise, why would Apple even bother collecting them?
 
it's illegal to download iOS 7 Beta? on what grounds would you be charged on?

Software piracy.

BSA said:
Software piracy is the unauthorized copying or distribution of copyrighted software. This can be done by copying, downloading, sharing, selling, or installing multiple copies onto personal or work computers. What a lot of people don't realize or don't think about is that when you purchase software, you are actually purchasing a license to use it, not the actual software. That license is what tells you how many times you can install the software, so it's important to read it. If you make more copies of the software than the license permits, you are pirating.

Downloading the iOS 7 beta without a license is considered software piracy. The websites distributing the software are also doing so.

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Yes, but it is easy to workaround and not a real lockdown.

It's still illegal, regardless of if it's "easy".
 
Hi,
Every time a distressed user asks for help with a beta release there always seems to be a developer who just wants to get at them and mock them for daring to try out a bit of software when their not a developer.

I suspect the reason for the disdain and mockery is because they are 99% of the time getting comments like 'your app keeps crashing on iOS 7. Hurry up and fix it'.

It's a No Sheet Sherlock given that
A. iOS 7 is beta software
B. they haven't release a version for iOS 7 yet.

And almost every time said user isn't getting this because they aren't developers and either bought or torrented access to the software.

This kind of frustration is probably the same reason Apple has a blanket 'no support in stores for devices with a pre-release of iOS or Mac OS. Developers have contact with the engineers, and the others tampered with their stuff and get what they deserve for not having a few months patience

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So what I'm wondering is what language is used to specify those restrictions where devices of other people can't be registered and used for testing.

I don't have the terms right in front of me but they basically say that registering UDIDs for anyone that is not part of your company is not allowed and if caught will result in your account being terminated and you/company being banned and all apps removed from the store.

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Exactly. As a developer it gets frustrating when I see my apps getting negative reviews for incompatibility in a developer beta. I almost want to reply and go really, are you kidding me? I literally cannot fix this issue for you until the software is launched and Apple will accept my updated application that's compatible.

This is why, and I have submitted this feedback, developers need to be able to flag reviews to be potentially deleted. Spamming in reviews would be another reason. I wish even users could flag reviews/reviewer to be checked because we also get fed up with such nonsense

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That's all most of the independent developers need, as there aren't always 30+ people pounding out an application.

Makes me wonder why they don't allow you 10-25 with the ability to request up to a total of 99
 
The one thing people have been saying that I don't think is true: that Apple is using beta users as testers for iOS7 and the more users the merrier.

Let's look at this logically. There are 10s of thousands of people who have iOS 7 installed right now, possibly 100s of thousands. If every person using iOS 7 is sending bug reports to Apple, they would be absolutely swamped with crash reports that are most likely duplicates of each other. At this stage, the engineers are probably working full time on polishing the OS, and the best way they can do this is talking to the dedicated QA team that they have, who are experts at finding bugs. I know that Donna is suspicious of the abilities of the dev team, but there's just no way Apple would hire anyone but the best for the QA team to squash bugs, and they are much better than a deluge of crash reports from random users.

So to all the people who are worried that Apple are using them as free beta testers: don't worry, Apple most likely aren't using your reports. The main reason betas are released to developers are to ensure that apps are ready to go day one for iOS7, and not so much free beta testing.

PS: The reason that Apple doesn't require a registered UDID to install the beta is because people were making a profit off selling dev slots. iOS5 definitely required people to register before they can install, but don't take Apple removing the requirement as a sign that they are encouraging users to install.
 
I'm a dev and don't care either way. I ignore the complainers, will try to point out workarounds or the assumed behavior for actual honest questions and move on.

Not that I haven't fed the trolls before (complaints about UI changes...boo hoo)

Did I mention I'm a dev? Hey you.... I'd like you to know I'm a dev. :p
 
The one thing people have been saying that I don't think is true: that Apple is using beta users as testers for iOS7 and the more users the merrier.

Let's look at this logically. There are 10s of thousands of people who have iOS 7 installed right now, possibly 100s of thousands. If every person using iOS 7 is sending bug reports to Apple, they would be absolutely swamped with crash reports that are most likely duplicates of each other. At this stage, the engineers are probably working full time on polishing the OS, and the best way they can do this is talking to the dedicated QA team that they have, who are experts at finding bugs. I know that Donna is suspicious of the abilities of the dev team, but there's just no way Apple would hire anyone but the best for the QA team to squash bugs, and they are much better than a deluge of crash reports from random users.

So to all the people who are worried that Apple are using them as free beta testers: don't worry, Apple most likely aren't using your reports. The main reason betas are released to developers are to ensure that apps are ready to go day one for iOS7, and not so much free beta testing.

PS: The reason that Apple doesn't require a registered UDID to install the beta is because people were making a profit off selling dev slots. iOS5 definitely required people to register before they can install, but don't take Apple removing the requirement as a sign that they are encouraging users to install.

I'm not 'suspicious' of any dev team. The purpose of rolling out the beta to them is not for testing the OS. It's so they can update existing apps and take advantage of any new aspects of the OS. It's not the job of any third-party developers to beta test Apple's OS.

I have no idea how much testing experience you have but I have a lot. From small in-house applications to a couple of web apps that, quite frankly, have more users than Apple does. Formal test programs are developed based on use cases. But with an 'application', as complicated as an OS there are always things you miss. Always, always, always. Apple is not an exception to this.

The fact is that Apple most certainly could lock down the installs more if they wanted. But they don't try very hard. The upshot is that they have a small portion of their most tech savvy users trying out their software. And these folks will find things a formal test plan never will. Because a formal test plan simply cannot provide for the different variables that exist in day-to-day usage.

I do not understand the issue over this. Every one wins, Apple gets real-world beta testing by some of their best users, devs have access to the software with plenty of time to update their apps, and in the end the users get a better product in less time. This is not a new process. It happens at every roll-out.

Sure, it's obvious some users shouldn't be updating because they don't have the skills or knowledge, but then how do they learn? Each and every person who has any tech knowledge started somewhere.

I'll say it again, why let it bother you if you're a dev. If it does, do not 1) click on the thread, or 2) do not visit forums other than the official dev forum.

Oh, as a disclaimer, I have not updated to the beta and have no intention of doing so. I'm now retired and the only betas I'll test is if I get paid. and paid a lot.
 
I completely agree with Jare.

It called developer's beta for a reason.

I cannot believe the amount of moaning that goes on in this forum - of course there are bugs and of course there will be apps that don't work. The guys who made your favourite app are not allowed to update it for iOS7 until it's GM (Just before release I believe? )

So why bitch and moan about it on a site like MR?

If you are a developer - file a bug report so Apple know about the bug - that is the only way they are going to actually listen to you. Trust me, Apple are not monitoring these boards for people bitching about their BETA OS. They're listening to actual developers submitting bug reports.

I am a new iOS developer with a paid account - I had iOS 7 on my device to see if my company's app runs on it - it does and there are no issues (Besides UI designs) thus I removed the software and installed iOS 6 as it's stable and all apps I need work with it.

I won't be developing for iOS 7 for some time so this is the reason I have removed the software. My company will be redesigning our app from the ground up - this is at least a six month project and thus - we're not wasting time on updating the current app to iOS7. We will be doing a new app for iOS 7 only.
 
I completely agree with Jare.

It called developer's beta for a reason.

I cannot believe the amount of moaning that goes on in this forum - of course there are bugs and of course there will be apps that don't work. The guys who made your favourite app are not allowed to update it for iOS7 until it's GM (Just before release I believe? )

So why bitch and moan about it on a site like MR?

If you are a developer - file a bug report so Apple know about the bug - that is the only way they are going to actually listen to you. Trust me, Apple are not monitoring these boards for people bitching about their BETA OS. They're listening to actual developers submitting bug reports.

I am a new iOS developer with a paid account - I had iOS 7 on my device to see if my company's app runs on it - it does and there are no issues (Besides UI designs) thus I removed the software and installed iOS 6 as it's stable and all apps I need work with it.

I won't be developing for iOS 7 for some time so this is the reason I have removed the software. My company will be redesigning our app from the ground up - this is at least a six month project and thus - we're not wasting time on updating the current app to iOS7. We will be doing a new app for iOS 7 only.


Who is bitching and moaning? Sounds like the devs are, about people seeking help on this forum. Yes, I agree it's annoying to come across people who are actually complaining about the OS, the UI, the icons, or whatever else because it's usually their own opinion, and no one else really cares. However, there are people legitimately seeking help on bugs and issues on this forum, or just trying to inform others of the said bugs/issues. So I don't think it's as simple as lumping every non-developer's threads into the "bitching and moaning" category.
 
I have no idea how much testing experience you have but I have a lot. From small in-house applications to a couple of web apps that, quite frankly, have more users than Apple does. Formal test programs are developed based on use cases. But with an 'application', as complicated as an OS there are always things you miss. Always, always, always. Apple is not an exception to this.

The fact is that Apple most certainly could lock down the installs more if they wanted. But they don't try very hard. The upshot is that they have a small portion of their most tech savvy users trying out their software. And these folks will find things a formal test plan never will. Because a formal test plan simply cannot provide for the different variables that exist in day-to-day usage.

You definitely have a lot more formal testing experience than I do and iOS 7 does need all the testing it can get like you said. But at the same time, all I said was that Apple isn't doing what you're saying ie. using beta users as testers.

Since I'm running the beta and you said you're not, I'll give a concrete example. A lot of text is off centre from where they should be, but they are otherwise harmless. But how do I report this to Apple? There are no "send feedback" links in the OS, and it's not a crashing problem so no errors are generated. So I can't really do it unless I use the bug reporter and I can't access that unless I'm a dev. Even then from what I've heard they usually ignore bug reports and give no indication that they're actively working on them.

As for the locking down bit, like I said Apple already tried to lock it down and it backfired, but they don't encourage anyone to install just because they removed the restrictions. And are these users valuable for feedback? Yes, but Apple seems to ignore them anyway.

I do not understand the issue over this. Every one wins, Apple gets real-world beta testing by some of their best users, devs have access to the software with plenty of time to update their apps, and in the end the users get a better product in less time. This is not a new process. It happens at every roll-out.

Yup, agree 100%. But I don't think Apple are doing this because of the reasons above.

I'll say it again, why let it bother you if you're a dev. If it does, do not 1) click on the thread, or 2) do not visit forums other than the official dev forum.

Not sure where you're getting your info from, but I'm NOT a dev with access to the beta and I never said I was a dev ;) Am I annoyed at all the others who installed without a dev account and are posting silly questions? A little. Does it bother me to the point where I hijack threads with "it's a beta!"? No.

I don't have a viewpoint either way and I'm content to let the natural course of the forum flow, but I did feel strongly enough to clear up one thing which I thought was incorrect.
 
Makes me wonder why they don't allow you 10-25 with the ability to request up to a total of 99

Just a follow up to this, I figure a good way of going about it (since they separate corporate and individual developers by account type) they could just give independent developers a max of 30 slots, and the corporate accounts 99.
 
As for the locking down bit, like I said Apple already tried to lock it down and it backfired, but they don't encourage anyone to install just because they removed the restrictions. And are these users valuable for feedback? Yes, but Apple seems to ignore them anyway.

When did they try to lock it down more than they already do now? As far as I recall, the procedure for installing betas has been the same for a while.
 
You know what's more annoying than non-developers complaining about bugs in the iOS7 Beta?

Developers dismissing every criticism of iOS7 because it's a beta. It's perfectly common to see something like "I really dislike the lack of definition around buttons and controls in iOS7" .... response "It's a beta."

Apple Maps criticism was met with "It's in beta...." Is it ok to criticize it yet? Or is it still in beta? I thought it went live, but that cant be because it's still buggy.
 
When did they try to lock it down more than they already do now? As far as I recall, the procedure for installing betas has been the same for a while.

For iOS5 they did, you had to have a registered UDID before installing. This just lead to people spamming forums with "$5 a slot" ads.
 
So why bitch and moan about it on a site like MR?

Because the site is called MacRUMORS, not MacDEVELOPERS.

"News and Rumors you care about".

And before everyone jumps on me, I am a developer. Just tired of seeing all the condescending users around here. There's a reason why a large portion of the Apple community hates the Apple community and its that type of self-righteous/smug attitude that causes it.
 
Because the site is called MacRUMORS, not MacDEVELOPERS.

And before everyone jumps on me, I am a developer.

Since you brought up that point, I'll bring up another:

It's a paid developer ONLY beta, not an everyone can use beta.
 
For iOS5 they did, you had to have a registered UDID before installing. This just lead to people spamming forums with "$5 a slot" ads.

Yes, so as far back as iOS 5 (I can't remember what it was like before then), you needed to register your UDID to install the beta, and then there were always workarounds to get around it. And I don't remember this situation ever changing through 5-7. But the poster I was quoting seems to suggest that there was a change, but Apple took that back?
 
Since you brought up that point, I'll bring up another:

It's a paid developer ONLY beta, not an everyone can use beta.

I'm a paying developer. Few of my buddies asked me to register their UDID, so I did.

Your assumption is that EVERYONE on here complaining is not. Bad assumption. But since they aren't developers, I'll tell them to keep their opinions to themselves.

For what its worth, we also JUST got Beta 2. I fully agree that alot of this bitching and moaning is uncalled for. If battery life, etc is still this bad near late Aug/Sept, I can see people whining.
 
Yes, so as far back as iOS 5 (I can't remember what it was like before then), you needed to register your UDID to install the beta, and then there were always workarounds to get around it. And I don't remember this situation ever changing through 5-7. But the poster I was quoting seems to suggest that there was a change, but Apple took that back?

The change I was talking about was that with iOS7 (and I think iOS6) you don't need to register your UDID before installing the beta, whereas before you did.
 
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