Haha, dream on! ...and the US doesn't go after everyone?, e.g. Airbus, French wine makers, Jaguar Landrover, Huawei [and 100's of other Chinese companies] Tiktoc etc
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Dutch Antitrust Probe Targets Contactless Payments Like Apple Pay
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Well, I am in Spain and I wanted to put a VISA debit in my Android phone and that was a no go for my bank because the Android System on my very expensive device was deemed un secure and Samsung said to get a better System buy a new phone.
Thats why I bought the iPhone, my bank recommended it. It is WAY smaller (I like that very much) way faster and way cheaper then a new Samsung would have been.
My debit card (I only use it for shopping, public transport like metro, taxi, bike rental, freeway tolls or to get money of the atm) costs 10Euros/year but if you put it into your Apple wallet, that fee is waved. Transactions of course are free. So actually it got cheaper for me then it would have been with google pay.
For me it is the best thing, I only have to carry that dinky phone and have everything I need, I can use it to pay anywhere (any VISA contactless terminal will do) it replaces my house and car keys, it does all the “smart” things a phone is suppose to do and, bonus, can make simple phone calls. I am happy.
Yes but the consensus here seems to be, that the poor banks loose out and Apple makes too much money. The customer is not important. As a customer I want to have all the rights. I do not care how much the bank makes, how much Apple makes (all thou I do hold AAPL for decades) as long as I, ME, MEMEME has the advantage. And Apple pay gives that advantage to me.
And you are right, whatever the banks put out, sucks.
Also, big difference to the US, here in Europe you go for an extended jog and you leave the country! Hey, I took the wrong train (or part of the train, it split😁) in the Nederlands and wound up im Belgium (the country, not the city as the most bestest president believes) and that means foreign transactions for your card. No problem with Apple pay.
Apples customer base is around 15% Europe wide, and from that, only a fraction is using Apple pay. In one of the largest markets, Germany, CC payment itself is very low, half the population do not even own a CC. They like cash. Every day you have news that you can get a cheap terminal and swipe peoples bottoms to fleece 50 Euros of them at the checkout line. So they do not use these cards.
So the banks are hardly pressured to accept Apple pay. They could just say no (some actually do but they are going down anyway, not because of Apple pay but bad management in general) but most don’t.
What has that to with it? I have my Metro card on the iPhone, payed for with Apple pay? That works for years?
But when you tap your Barclay card it does not allow you to pay with your Santander card, maybe the EC should investigate that lack of innovation, oh wait that’s ridiculous.
This is the classic EU play (I know the Dutch are leading the charge) of we need some more cash to waste on vanity products due to COVID where can we get it from? Good shout Pierre we haven’t fined the American tech companies a few billion euros for a few months.
So next step, does Apple need to include every bank's custom NFC chip in iphone? Does every camera app have to have their own physical camera on iphone?
When using Apple Pay, Apple has access to all information when you are using your bank's credit or debit cards. I would rather have an App that is controlled by my own bank.
I don't think Apple regards Apple Pay as a notable profit center.
Except there absolutely is: privacy.
Same reason third-party apps also don't get direct access to your location, your contacts, etc. They all have to go through Apple's API.
Yes you can, but by using Apple Pay you also grant Apple access to all of your payment information....
Retailers would then have to update their payment systems to accept PayPal contactless payments in addition to Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay. If you want to use PayPal funds, you can get the free debit card from PayPal and add it to your Apple Wallet.
It ain't free for the banks/merchants. The cut Apple takes is much smaller than what credit card companies demand from merchants. But there is almost zero competitive pressure on Apple's cut, once a bank (usually via the credit cards issued by the bank) supports Apple Pay, the bank has to pay the fee Apple demands with almost no room for negotiation (the bank could threaten to remove support for Apple Pay but very few banks would dare to do so once enough of their iPhone-using customers are used to paying with their phones). If iPhones could use rival services like Google Pay, banks had a bit more negotiating power with Apple as the threat to drop support for Apple Pay would be more credible (as the bank could direct its Apple Pay users towards Google Pay).
And if Android phones were also locked to one provider, ie, Google Pay, there would be much reduced competitive pressure for Apple and Google to improve their digital payment solutions (there still would be some competition but it would be rolled into the overarching iPhone vs Android competition which has relatively high barriers for switching). It's bit like looking at iCloud storage pricing, for some services that use iCloud storage there is little competition (eg, device backup), for others like iCloud Photo Library, the competition requires some compromises. One can argue that is just part of the price for the whole package (price of iPhones, iPhone repairs, iCloud storage) and that whole package competes with Android.
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Smartphones are largely general purpose devices that serve as a platform for a huge number of different services. Debit cards are largely single purpose devices. How would you feel if Apple Pay were locked to users of Apple Card? Would that feel right to you?
Yes, but Apple HAS done the work. They have put the structures in place in the form of phones and other devices that enable Apple Pay. Personally, I'm more than happy.
Yes but given the NFC access they have on Android, has there been any great example where that has resulted in a better service / product? (I’m genuinely asking to see if there has been. In my quick google search, I didn’t come across any.)
In the example above regarding Australia’s situation, it sucked in the years it took for the banks to introduce it. Today however, almost every single one of our banks offer Apple Pay, and almost every single person I know uses it. It’s fairly uncommon see a retail front that doesn’t accept tap2pay today.
Given the high variance in the UX and design of financial apps (again mainly for Australian Banks in this case), I’d have very low expectations on how the FS industry would revolutionise a better NFC experience for than what Apple Pay or Google Pay could do natively within.
Btw, I agree that others should have access to the NFC functions of the iPhone other than Apple. And from experience, it seems that they do (our workplace uses our work-issued iPhones to enter all our offices, lockers etc.).
It’s just the financial payment services that aren’t permitted and as the customer, I don’t see how we’ve lost in this case. The experience using Apple Pay is seamless and incredibly reliable.
Also work for a bank. 🙂
As other payment apps on Android are allowed other than Google Pay, Barclays bank in the UK does not support G Pay and has their own version. It is terribly implemented, often doesn't work and most importantly doesn't allow you to use cards from other banks. The Apple Pay system may be worse for the banks but in my opinion provides a better experience for the user
Huh? The banks are not up to anything. This thread is about an investigation of the Dutch Antitrust Authority. The banks have not instigated it and aren't even mentioned. Also Apple is not mentioned by the Authority.
It is a general investigation in contactless payments. It can go any way.
This thread has evolved in some rant against the banks and/or Apple. Lots of people in this thread are assuming a lot of things. Also because the word 'Apple' is mentioned once or twice in the article (by MR mind you) some people feel the need to get defensive about Apple and rant against the banks.
Nothing to do with the issue at hand and way of topic.
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Actually, the credit card companies do pay a very small percentage to Apple when you pay with ApplePay. They are Ok with that because it improves security and reduces the cost the card companies have to pay for fraud.
if I created GnasherPay I’d have to convince the card companies to work with me, and I’d have to convince them to pay me. That’s a hard ask.
That was widely published when ApplyPay was introduced; the card company charged the merchant about 3% and 0.2% or so goes to Apple. But then it prevents a rogue employee or a hacker from copying your credit card information and buying stuff on your card - which makes life more convenient to you, but saves the credit card companies real money.
My software _does_ use the secure element. It’s quite limited what can be done: 1. Create cryptographic keys stored in the secure element, but only my app can see them. 2. Use these cryptographic keys to encrypt or decrypt data, without ever seeing the key itself. 3. Same as 2. but only works if the user uses Touchid or faceid. The app cannot use anyone else’s keys, and nobody can access my app’s keys.
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No, an app hasn’t access to fingerprint or face scan. Nobody has access to that. They can ask iOS “please check that this is the right user”, then iOS scans your fingerprint or face without giving access to the data to anyone, and the Secure Enclave looks at the data and says “yes” or “no”. The app then either knows it’s you, or it doesn’t.
A common problem in the internet is responding to a post where the talking points used are hyperbole and used to form some illogical conclusion.
$2T or before $2T Apple has never harvested user data for sale. And they are a for profit company, building products for sale that people want to buy and use. Apple Pay is an easy use product that nets apple some $$$ with every transaction.
Apples backend systems and other external systems must communicate, I’m not sure why you think that is hypocritical. When a customer uses Apple Pay everyone makes a buck.
But don’t confuse this with a basically structured, closed ecosystem.
There are already agents that have authorized access to the chip...such as the MTA. That’s not what you want others to have, which is the ability to control the Nfc, which likely won’t happen.
At the worst times, the rate of suicides at the factories Apple uses was lower than the rate of murders against US retail employees. In soulless San Francisco, about 2,000 people died jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, and nobody does anything.