Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Final Cut Updates in March or April? Xserve Controversy and Jobs on Blu-ray
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Ding Ding Ding.
The amount of changes to the core system of OSX would not only be a giant engineering challenge, but also break an immense amount of media-related software and bring far more restrictions to the platform about how you can use and manipulate media.
This isn't a stand against Blu-Ray the physical format, this is a stand against over-reaching DRM.
And before anyone says anything, Fairplay != BR DRM. Fairplay is confined to quicktime, and BR DRM covers the overall system.
Apple does not want to compromise internal architecture to meet the desires of a single external organization.
I would love BR, but I agree with Apple's stance on this matter.
Steve Jobs would love to give you BluRay, but not with these costs. It would also be a PR nightmare to have a data-only BluRay drive and have to explain it to people. Much better PR to just keep it off the system completely.
What we should do is Lobby for the BR consortium to allow for BR to be played back with a 3rd party only solution, thereby allowing apple to make a BluRay app (Similar to DVD). But as anyone familiar with the matter will tell you, it will not / can not happen.
Karl P
Apple's DRM still allows you to output sound and video without copy protection (ie, apps like Audio Hijack Pro can hijack and record audio originating from DRM-ed sources, in the same way DVI outputs video without any DRM attached to it).
BluRay requires that the DRM reaches right into the monitor so nobody can capture any DRM content digitally. That is another level of protection. Now, I do not know whether the open-source foundations of OS X would cause any problems in implementing such a DRM but BluRay DRM is definitely different from FairPlay DRM.
I disagree. Let's say you are going away on a trip and want to bring some movies. If your library or your Netflix deliveries are Blu-ray, now you can't watch them. Same goes in your house, if you want to watch something while working on something else on your computer, you are stuck if your computer can't play blu-ray. Especially, for Netflix, who doesn't send the Blu-ray/DVD combo discs, it is really incovenient to have to decide which format to request the disc in, based on where you might be watching it.
While the Windows machines have had no problems playing Blu-ray for years, it is sad that Apple keeps putting this feature off.
Bluray for serious watching, AppleTV for casual
I have AppleTV for our family room 54" Panasonic Plasma TV using internal TV speakers. Viewing distance of 12 feet. AppleTV is more than enough for this. I watched National Lampoons Christmas Vacation in 720P HD with 2 channel audio on Apple TV through netflix streaming. More than adequate.
However, my media room with a 1080P projector with 120" screen and viewing distance of 12 feet requires a Bluray player. I tried netflix streaming as well as iTunes content. Bleh!! Bluray is a requirement for this!! Nothing streaming even comes close for this. Also, HD Audio is a requirement. I use PS3, higher end HK AVR 745 (A/V receiver) and 5.1 better quality speakers (about $3000 for the speakers).
I guess Apple does not want to play in this market. I can empathize. I don't care if I play my Bluray content from a PC or a dedicated Bluray player. I actually prefer a dedicated player! The only advantage may be to rip bluray content into the Mac (which you can do using third party drives and a ripper). But I was told that lossless audio does not work properly.
Also, I have bought Bluray disks for as low as $6 during the holiday season - on sale. I bought Toy Story 1 and 3 for $25 together in Bluray. I can rent bluray as part of monthly rentals through Blockbuster and Netflix and even redbox (individually - only $1.50). AppleTV rentals are a lot more expensive for lower quality content.
I have AppleTV for our family room 54" Panasonic Plasma TV using internal TV speakers. Viewing distance of 12 feet. AppleTV is more than enough for this. I watched National Lampoons Christmas Vacation in 720P HD with 2 channel audio on Apple TV through netflix streaming. More than adequate.
However, my media room with a 1080P projector with 120" screen and viewing distance of 12 feet requires a Bluray player. I tried netflix streaming as well as iTunes content. Bleh!! Bluray is a requirement for this!! Nothing streaming even comes close for this. Also, HD Audio is a requirement. I use PS3, higher end HK AVR 745 (A/V receiver) and 5.1 better quality speakers (about $3000 for the speakers).
I guess Apple does not want to play in this market. I can empathize. I don't care if I play my Bluray content from a PC or a dedicated Bluray player. I actually prefer a dedicated player! The only advantage may be to rip bluray content into the Mac (which you can do using third party drives and a ripper). But I was told that lossless audio does not work properly.
Also, I have bought Bluray disks for as low as $6 during the holiday season - on sale. I bought Toy Story 1 and 3 for $25 together in Bluray. I can rent bluray as part of monthly rentals through Blockbuster and Netflix and even redbox (individually - only $1.50). AppleTV rentals are a lot more expensive for lower quality content.
As I said in a previous post, movies in iTunes, I find, often had lower quality than a DVD/BluRay of the same resolution. Plus, many iTunes movies don't have the behind the scenes featurettes, closed captioning, etc. Plus, no resell value for downloads.
As for BluRay versus something like a USB flash drive, I agree, flash drives are easier to use, but are more expensive. Plus, I'm the IT guy at a middle school and I've see a lot of really shoddy flash drives. Some of it may be from the 800 or so hormonally challenged 11-14 year olds, but a lot of it is also poor build quality in the flash drives. But no technology is 100% idiot proof yet 100% usable. Besides, make something idiot-proof & someone will make a better idiot.
Yes, but you still can't use it to play back blu-ray discs and burning to them is only via Toast.
And then try authoring a blu-ray movie disc with a bespoke menu from all that beautiful HD footage you've captured on your video camera/DSLR. You can't - from FCP you can burn blu-ray disc using COMPRESSOR(!) and only have a choice of 6 templates.
However a truly bespoke disc can be made with Adobe software/Windows/PC hardware but not on an all singing, all dancing Mac 'which just works'.
A lot of people here are saying they can't see why they would ever need blu-ray on their Mac. However, there are also a lot of people who would love it and will simply be forced over to Windows and Adobe. They are the people who use Macs to produce rather than consume media.
I don't care if something is 'bag of hurt'. This is the business Apple are in. Simple as. Would any of us turn around to our customers and say 'Yes, we can do it but we don't want to because it's a bit tricky really. We're going to spend our time making the iTunes store interface even more confusing instead'? What is the point in Apple having professional video production software if their computers can't actually output the finished product to the current up and coming disc format of the time? Blu-ray needs to become a bto option in the Apple Store. I fully understand not every body needs it and shouldn't have to pay for it.
Does my memory serve me correct in thinking Apple dragged their heals adopting CD-R and DVD as well?
Apple dropping a high level professional format (Xserve) with such a short warning period is unprofessional and is going to leave a very sour taste in many IT professionals mouths for a long time.
I feel Apple is happily dropping its support for professionals and is becoming purely a consumer electronics company (aka Sony) and is going to try its hardest to make consumers adopt whichever formats it sees best with regards to their own interests, which is a real shame.
Obey
The Blu Ray Community must bend to Steve's will.
Obey APPL and prosper!
Blu Ray, you will be assimilated!
Check out my market cap, you dogs.
The Blu Ray Community must bend to Steve's will.
Obey APPL and prosper!
Blu Ray, you will be assimilated!
Check out my market cap, you dogs.
c't (german magazin) has compared different video on demand services and iTunes had all the worst picture quality.
Apple also uses no CABAC -> e.g. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1431694#post1431694
This is an important H.264 Feature to save Bitrate.
720p is not bad. It can be goot. But iTunes 720p is bad
Apple also uses no CABAC -> e.g. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1431694#post1431694
http://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/x264Options
This is an important H.264 Feature to save Bitrate.
720p is not bad. It can be goot. But iTunes 720p is bad
Last edited:
Thanks for the suggestions. You're right, I was trying to get this off my plate as quickly as possible, and I acknowledge that my machine was not optimized for the process (older laptop, internal drive and pressed for free disk space -- in fact I spent an hour offloading files from my HD onto my NAS in order to make room for the editing I was about to do).
Sounds like my solutions are:
(a) Use Toast
(b) Use Adobe Premiere
I notice that neither solution uses Apple-native solutions. Both solutions will involve spending money on software (granted Toast isn't that expensive). "Upgrade to a faster machine" is also implicit. This is what I think is kind of sad. I won't post my entire "why I switched to Mac" story here, but the gist of it was that, at the time, I was struggling to edit DV video with my top-of-the-line, spec'ed out Dell workstation laptop running pro NLE software, but my friend had a several-years-older Titanium PowerBook G4 that ran circles around my machine. He imported, edited, did full-screen preview playback, etc. without rendering (well, iMovie was doing background transition rendering) and without skipping frames like my Windows machine did. All using the FREE built-in iLife software. That impressed me so much that I bought my own PowerBook a few months later. It's not that his machine was faster (in fact, I'm certain it wasn't) but Apple tuned their software just so using techniques like background rendering to make it feel faster.
I want to point out here that I'm not a pro (though I dabbled with semi-pro projects for a while). I don't really want to set up an editing workstation. I'm just an average guy with a Mac laptop trying to make a DVD of a concert he recorded on an HD camera. Sounds like the kind of typical common task that Apple used to make really easy and elegant.
Last edited:
I really can't believe the number of people in this thread that are just fine and dandy with highly draconian, OS-level DRM being implemented system-wide simply for the playback of a stupid video disc...
I don't mind DRM like FairPlay and Steam's. It's reasonable and doesn't extend past their respective apps. DRM that encompasses the entire OS, though? Screw that. Screw it long and hard.
I don't mind DRM like FairPlay and Steam's. It's reasonable and doesn't extend past their respective apps. DRM that encompasses the entire OS, though? Screw that. Screw it long and hard.
Apple has already entered the enterprise via the back door (read: executive entrance.)
The Xserve is dead. Live with it. Apple will either release an alternative or render the issue totally moot via a different method. Trust that they've got something in the works. Their new $302 billion market cap allows them a lot of room to move.
As for Blu Ray, it's over. We're heading into streaming. Blu Ray is done. Apple blew past the issue like a tailback breaking through the Detroit Lions' secondary. The consumer barely noticed. Apple kept selling record numbers of Macs quarter-for-quarter.
Steve was right. Again.
The Xserve is dead. Live with it. Apple will either release an alternative or render the issue totally moot via a different method. Trust that they've got something in the works. Their new $302 billion market cap allows them a lot of room to move.
As for Blu Ray, it's over. We're heading into streaming. Blu Ray is done. Apple blew past the issue like a tailback breaking through the Detroit Lions' secondary. The consumer barely noticed. Apple kept selling record numbers of Macs quarter-for-quarter.
Steve was right. Again.
I'd like Jobs to explain "Bag of hurt"
If Dell or Sony can get BRD to play on their inferior (and cheaper) LAPTOPS can we not devote a few hours of work into at least letting the Mac play the disc from an external drive or maybe, MAYBE even let the consume pay for the option to have an internal burning drive???
Jobs profits from BRD sales by being on the Disney board who pushes BRD constantly and for good reason. iTunes stuff is fine for some but I will hold out as long as I possibly can from buying Music or Video. Long live physical media!
If Dell or Sony can get BRD to play on their inferior (and cheaper) LAPTOPS can we not devote a few hours of work into at least letting the Mac play the disc from an external drive or maybe, MAYBE even let the consume pay for the option to have an internal burning drive???
Jobs profits from BRD sales by being on the Disney board who pushes BRD constantly and for good reason. iTunes stuff is fine for some but I will hold out as long as I possibly can from buying Music or Video. Long live physical media!
Ha! ashamed Blu-Ray is associated with Apple... Blu-Ray is a premium product is it not?
If i were you Stevie, be more embarrassed and ashamed of iPhone Clock issues... iPhone 4 issues... **** Quicktime X (modern codec support???), **** 64-bit support... bull-**** iPhoto '11... C2D in 2010 laptops... 1280X800 resolution on 13" laptops... the list is just endless! oh and using Microsoft Office 2010 on Windows... Word opens as soon as i click the icon.... 2 minutes later after a continuous beachball, it's nice to start work on Pages '09.....
If i were you Stevie, be more embarrassed and ashamed of iPhone Clock issues... iPhone 4 issues... **** Quicktime X (modern codec support???), **** 64-bit support... bull-**** iPhoto '11... C2D in 2010 laptops... 1280X800 resolution on 13" laptops... the list is just endless! oh and using Microsoft Office 2010 on Windows... Word opens as soon as i click the icon.... 2 minutes later after a continuous beachball, it's nice to start work on Pages '09.....
Good point. Sometimes I tend to forget about the floppy disk thing. I tend to think that there is a method to Jobs' intuitive madness because he generally ends up being right. However in this case I wish someone would overrule his judgment since this is an obvious improvement that we want and need.
what's makes me laugh to the point of Hysteria - The Simpsons Movie on iTunes is £6.99... £3 in HMV!!!! People who purchase on iTunes have more money than sense!
The root of the issue is the requirement for compliance to a secured HDPC connection despite it not providing any benefit to the end user or content owner. As of now, HDCP DRM is a complete waste of time and money and has been a failure at it's original goal of reducing piracy via analog holes.
Frankly the best copy protection for Blu-Ray has always been the size of the RAW data.
The Blu-Ray consortium should consider this requirement obsolete and allow players to ignore the flag for full quality playback. This would allow options for users to play back content w/o embedded OS support (increasing market share). There are already many third party Blu-Ray drives available and a Mac (and Linux) Blu-Ray media players could be written w/o OS cooperation.
Frankly the best copy protection for Blu-Ray has always been the size of the RAW data.
The Blu-Ray consortium should consider this requirement obsolete and allow players to ignore the flag for full quality playback. This would allow options for users to play back content w/o embedded OS support (increasing market share). There are already many third party Blu-Ray drives available and a Mac (and Linux) Blu-Ray media players could be written w/o OS cooperation.
Steve could say that 2+2 is 5 and you would use some twisted logic to say he's right.
I just bought, over the Christmas holidays, Blu-Rays for the entire Harry Potter series, Lord of the Rings, Twister (hey, it was on sale), Book of Eli, and the A-Team. These join the dozen or so other Blu-Ray movies on my shelf already. I'm watching them either on a 47" 1080p screen or on my projector (putting out a 100" picture).
1080p video looks fantastic. The Dolby TrueHD soundtracks are really great on a quality 7.1 surround system.
Where can I find the 1080p/TrueHD streaming movies on the iTunes Store?
Oh yes, and thanks to smart shopping, sales, and Previously-Viewed, my movies cost on average less than $10 each. The "under $10" section in iTunes is remarkably thin...
The storm is only starting. A lot of high-profile xserve users will revolt.
Releasing a new Xserve or partnering with Oracle to run Mac OS X Server OS on Sun Fire servers will avoid a lot of bad PR. The Sun Fire 4170 M2 is a good choice. Sun storage is also a great option for high end users Sun ZFS Storage 7120
Save the Xserve
Releasing a new Xserve or partnering with Oracle to run Mac OS X Server OS on Sun Fire servers will avoid a lot of bad PR. The Sun Fire 4170 M2 is a good choice. Sun storage is also a great option for high end users Sun ZFS Storage 7120
Save the Xserve
Ha! ashamed Blu-Ray is associated with oh and using Microsoft Office 2010 on Windows... Word opens as soon as i click the icon.... 2 minutes later after a continuous beachball, it's nice to start work on Pages '09.....
You are right about the other problems, but as for the pages problem...it's clearly user error. I am running it on a 5 year old macbook pro with 2 gb of ram and a 2.2ghz processor. And even with photoshop cs4 hogging most of my available memory, Pages still opens almost immediately.
Not to mention that word fails in so many other ways that I can't even begin to mention. Pages and keynote are still far superior to Word and PowerPoint.
Now Numbers on the other hand...anybody want to help me bury this POS out back?
OEM's like Dell and Sony don't have to deal with the same costs that Apple do and they don't have to worry about OS support. The comparison is extremely flawed.
Apple has more problems getting implementing Blu-Ray than getting the right parts available at a reasonable cost.
Last edited: